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#16099 12/08/06 10:34 PM
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ewest, two 6' Xmas trees seems pretty light to me for 1/4 acre, don't you think?

I was trying to envision that; 1/4 surface acre should be a little over 10,000 square feet. If a single 6' tall Xmas tree had a diameter of 6' also, then it's diametrical area is less than 36 square feet in relation to the 10,000 square feet of the pond. Times two trees is 72 square feet. Less than 1% (when only considering the horizontal relation).

That doesn't seem like much to me although I know the calcs can be done differently adding the other plane in.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#16100 12/08/06 10:42 PM
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I put 8 in my 3/4 acre pond and there was 2 so there is 10. After the first year and getting a feel, I will keep the same amound of structures but add more trees in those spots, then I just want to try a few laying down on the bank because I rarely see any fish unless there is something for them to get next to. I was thinking like 3 spaced a foot or two apart trunks twards the bank. I could always remove them...


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#16101 12/08/06 10:49 PM
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I have 3 small tire reffs and one nice size dead tree branch in it all ready.


brand new, never before used 1/4 acre pond.
#16102 12/08/06 11:01 PM
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Sunil I exclude all of the pond within 25 ft of the bank from that calculation as it is the biggest structure of all. I further assume that there will be some shallow bank structure (logs pallets, brush etc) anyway. Most info suggests 1-2 brush piles etc per acre. If the pond is 100 X 100 and you take away the 25 feet both sides you have 50 X 50 with 2 structures. That is enough to concentrate the fish.


http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf

In ponds of less than one
acre, one brush shelter is enough.
Larger ponds need one or two shelters
per acre.
Select attractor sites that are
accessible to anglers. Good locations
are found in water 5 to 10 feet deep
near creek channels, off points, or at
dropoffs.
















#16103 12/08/06 11:50 PM
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50 combined HSB & CC (once the latter get to a couple of pounds) should be good at keeping 200 HBG's offspring suppressed. IIRC Meadowlark is running a 4:1 HSB:HBG (TGG) ratio in his 1/4 acre pond and seeing very few offspring.


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#16104 12/08/06 11:57 PM
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TGG??? 4 HSB to every one HBG? I'm very new to this stuff.


brand new, never before used 1/4 acre pond.
#16105 12/09/06 08:20 AM
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Okie,

In Theo's post, TGG refers to the Texas Georgia Giant. Meadowlark has taken the reins on an experiment involving a small pond and the Georgia Giant. You can do a search to find the thread. Good read.

BTW, Theo has put together a post that will be of interest to you.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000005

Side note: Theo, I did not see TGG on the list.
Edited to add "Texas". Thanks Eric.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112031

#16106 12/09/06 09:00 AM
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It's there now. AAAWIP (acronyms are a work in progress).

A search for "TGG" under Questions and Observations returns about 2 dozen threads (most) detailing Meadowlark's 1/4 acre TGG/HSB pond. I'm not touting GG's specifically, but this is one of the best documented HBG ponds that one can read about here.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#16107 12/09/06 09:27 AM
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Thanks ewest. I see what you are saying. It still seems light to me, and I do place a lot of my brush piles within 25' of the bank or shore.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#16108 12/09/06 10:02 AM
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TGG = Texas Georgia Giant / the name of Meadowlark's pond experiment.

The fish is GG = Georgia Giant which is a type of HBG = Hybrid Bluegill, from what little we know about its lineage.

Theo is right that "this is one of the best documented HBG ponds that one can read about here" but there is a lot of HBG info here and others have good HBG ponds with longer time runs (experience) such as bz.


http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000439;p=1
















#16109 12/09/06 10:56 AM
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thank you for the info on TGG. I look forward to reading about it. I have a silly question. How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????


brand new, never before used 1/4 acre pond.
#16110 12/09/06 10:59 AM
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There was significant input into a thread about small pond management and stocking, just awhile back, called Keeping Things Simple. I proposed stocking baitfish that have high reproductive capability and predators that do not. A rational mix for you is, in my opinion:

Forage Fish
Fathead Minnows, 2-3 lbs Now
Mosquito Fish, 1000 fish Spring
3"-5" Bluegill, 200 Spring
3"-5" Redear Sunfish, 50 Spring

Predators
4"-6" Catfish, 25 Spring
5"-7" HSBs, 25 Spring

You can start a feeding program in the spring and enhance the growth rates and max growth potential of most of these fish. Use 40% protein or higher fish food, small pellets at first. I tend to avoid stocking HBGL for folks. Bluegill should do well and contribute something to your HSBs and Cats.

In my opinion, the TGGs are just a standard HBGL, but others might argue with me about that. I don't see a problem with stocking HBGL, necessarily, but they won't contribute to the production of baitfish...if anything they'll eat high numbers of minnow offspring and supplemental baitfish that you stock in the future.

Bluegill numbers are easily controlled, if needed, by hook/line, trapping, or adding more HSBs. Catfish probably won't control bluegill numbers.

Catfish and HSBs can be restocked as you remove them to keep the pond in balance.

If you can't find a source for HSBs in your area then we can airship some to you. Same goes for the other fish you intend to stock.


It's ALL about the fish!
#16111 12/09/06 11:07 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by okiefish16:
...How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????
If you stock similarly sized fish you will be able to tell the slow growers by comparing fish caught during angling. An example would be that the following year you fish for HSB and catch two 12-inchers and two 10-inchers. Harvest the smaller ones. You'll also learn to recognize differences in "Wr" or relative weight, which simply put is how chunky the fish is. Remove and eat the fish that aren't thriving in your system as well.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#16112 12/09/06 11:08 AM
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How far can I transport the HSB? I can get the HSB in Gainsville. Its about a 2 hr drive.


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#16113 12/09/06 11:11 AM
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Do you have a pickup?


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#16114 12/09/06 11:14 AM
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yes, and I plan on bringing a tank of some kind with me.


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#16115 12/09/06 11:18 AM
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Rubbermaid makes some nice tanks. If you can create a situation with minimal splashing, then you can buy a decent livewell aeration system to bubble the fish. Ideally the water temperature will be around 60 to low 60's which is what I've had best hauling success with.

80 HSB in the 4-6 inch range is nothing for a two hour trip. Piece of cake. I use a 100 gallon rubbermaid tank, which fits just right in my F-150.

Make sure to acclimate the fish before placing them in your pond. Gradual change of temperature to match the new home will make your fish happy.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#16116 12/09/06 12:42 PM
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okiefish16, Bruce and Todd are the HSB experts with the most experience, but I will share my experience with you.

4 – 6 inch HSB available for spring stocking are one year old stunted fish.

One-year-old HSB should be “grown-out” to 10 – 12 inches in hatchery ponds, whereas 4-6 inch fish have likely been held in crowded conditions on maintenance feed.

If 4 – 6 HSB are the only size available, I would stock heavily in a new pond, and follow Bruce’s recommendation to remove slow growers.

Last month, we stocked 50, 5 - 7 inch HSB in our 1/4 acre "grow-out" pond, expecting to transfer 25+ of our largest to our main pond next spring.

We have BG in this pond for primary forage, supplemented with high protein feed.

N.E. Texas

#16117 12/09/06 12:53 PM
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The folks that you purchase from SHOULD be able to package these fish for 2 hr drive with no problems at all. So there SHOULDN'T be a need for a livewell. Call them first to find out for sure.


It's ALL about the fish!
#16118 12/09/06 03:30 PM
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Okiefish16 says: “I live in Moore, ok and my pond is .25 acre and 12ft deep when full. Right now it is about 7' to 8' deep.” “I would like to put HSB, BG and CC in it.” . . . . “I do plan on feeding and we do plan on taking fish out to eat.”

There has been lots of activity on your topic since yesterday, which has lengthened my reply, so it took longer than I planned. As U are experiencing with your topic, everyone here has an opinion about your project. Some are keeping it to themselves. If U look long enough, U will eventually find someone who will tell U exactly what U want to hear. There are many combinations of fish that can be used successfully in a small pond. Now here is what I think will help U to hopefully give U some more background info, some additional things to consider and hopefully not confuse U more than U already are.

STOCKING – Decisions – Decisions. Always remember this - The good thing about your pond is that it is small and starting over will be relatively easy when you decide to make minor or major changes.

Since I understand that U plan anticipated heavy harvest, U are almost forced to a put-and-take fish stocking situation. A 0.25 acre pond has a hard time naturally producing enough fish annually to allow a sizable fish harvest each year.

Everyone has favorite fish.
Since you have decided to feed your fish to optimize growth rates, then having a reproducing, self perpetuating forage fish is not as important to help feed the predators, compared to hyb bgill that have a pretty limited production of offspring. Remember if U go with Hyb Bgill, then as you harvest them, they will have to be purchased & replaced on a regular basis to maintain their numbers, so U constantly have a crop of larger panfish to harvest and eat. Also remember that restocking small sized Hyb bgill makes them very vulnerable to predation losses and this can affect how many that U purchase each time, and how well or how many will survive to a harvestable size. Depending on your predator fish numbers and predator sizes, U may find yourself frustrated at trying to restock hyb gill and getting them to NOT BECOME FISH FOOD. The most difficult part is usually locating a hatchery that sell restockers that are large enough (5”-8”) to avoid predation by 14”-15” or larger predators.

If U decide to stock regular bgill then they will continually reproduce and can, with regular feeding and proper management, grow to big sizes of 9”-10” in 4-5 yrs. Decisions - decisions.

Predators. CC and HSB – Expect neither one to do much at naturally replacing their numbers when lost to natural death or harvest. CC, can with proper spawn structure, ample REFUGE cover, and lack of predatory pressure, provide recruitment of numbers. HSB - never expect reproduction. Both fish, as they are sold by almost every hatchery, are raised to eat fish food. So locating stocker fish at least initially should not be a big problem. Locating larger sized replacement fish may be more challenging.

In a small pond such as yours, with an intended annual harvest rate, your most feasible solution is to annually or semiannually replace a similar amount or number that are harvested. This often means stocking larger sized individuals if predation losses are likely. However, locating larger stocker fish is sometimes difficult unless you are lucky enough to live near a fish farm that typically sells larger sized fish. Predation losses due to existing fish eating newly stocked fingerling fish is a real problem especially in a small pond. Pellet trained LMB if available in your neighborhood is also another put-and-take fish to consider. But remember that LMB with their larger mouths and strong appetites will require the use of even larger sizes of replacement fish.

As Joey suggested, consider stocking 10”-14”, put-and-take trout during late fall every year or three. These fish will feed well on fish food all winter and will provide lots of enjoyment during the cold and cool season, plus provide ample food for the table from October until about late May in Oklahoma.

Stock Now or Later. Since you are using well water to fill this pond, initially it will be nutrient poor. What ever fish you decide to stock make sure that it has been previously trained to eat fish food. A new well-water pond has low potential to grow fish due to low fertility. I think stocking minnows is optional since U should be essentially planning a put and take fishery. Minnows will, in cases similar to yours be short lived and they are not very efficient at growing or producing body mass of predatory fish. The fish that you are considering to stock are CC, BG-(hy-bgill) and HSB, all species that readily accept and grow well on artificial food. When it comes to raising fish for the table, fish food has a much higher food conversion ratio than live fish. Consider efficient use of your invested dollar. The choice is yours.


Trees – Two vs Many in a Small Pond. Fine twigged trees deteriorate fairly quickly and need to be regularly replaced if denser structure is desired long term (10+ yrs). Dr Dave Willis published an article in Pond Boss magazine about how Christmas trees degrade over time in a pond (Nov-Dec 2004 - SPRUCE UP YOUR POND by D.Willis. Selection, placement, anchoring methods, and aging / duration of Christmas trees as structure for fish.). You and others that are interested may want to study and contemplate this article.

However I question the need and value of a using a couple to just a few small twiggy trees in a small 0.25 acre pond. Why? A couple trees or one or two isolated artificial structures are, as ewest notes and as practically all applicable literature states, are primarily placed as fish attractors. In a 0.25 acre pond, why does one need fish attractors? Standing in any one or two spots on a 0.25 pond, I can probably cast to just about every spot in a pond this small. Where are the fish going to go to avoid a lure?. In a 0.25 acre pond, why does an angler need to attract or concentrate the fish? How far can they go, or how isolated can they become in such a small body of water? But if it makes you feel better to have some “fish structure” in a small pond then by all means install it, but after numerous years evaluating fish attractors in small ponds, I don’t think they are all that beneficial at helping the pond produce more fish.

NOW, if you are adding structures to become REFUGE areas for small fish, then that is an altogether DIFFERENT story or topic than using structure for just fish attractors. There is a big difference between the two topics and the requirements, percent coverage needed, consistency, and the purposes of each. Usually fish attractors are composed of a lose, open weave or spacious consistancy. Bob Lusk calls this fluffy cover. For REFUGE areas to be effective they need to be finely divided surfaces and comprise a significant part of the littoral or shallow areas (6”-3ft deep). I often suggest at least 25% of the shoreline. Predators often hunt the edges of this type of cover. Whereas in fluffy cover predators and large panfish locate within and among the cover. If you are managing your pond as primarily put-and-take and stocking larger sized fish with few forage fish present, then the refuge areas may be overall more of a detriment then benefit. But as I said earlier, If it makes you feel better, put in some structure.

Seining. In your case, with a deep steep sided, bowl shaped pond, seining the whole pond is not feasible, but the proper use of a seine in the beech or shallow littoral areas for assisting in population control and monitoring fish hatches is a valuable fish management tool. Fish traps can also be good tools for managing fish populations. Areas with bundles of structure will prevent seining of those locations.

Read the link provided in a post below by Ewest about: structure = fish growth. Note the study was in ponds 0.5-1 acre (all larger than 0.25) and the study used 9 (nine) trees per cluster, not a couple. Nine evergreen trees placed in shallow water starts approach the definition of REFUGE for small fish. The fish in the study were not fed pellets. Forage fish and natural foods were the food source. In a case such as this, a dense and fairly large cluster of structure can be beneficial. I think this is due to it being closer to a REFUGE than a fluffy FISH ATTRACTOR. REFUGE can be a fish attractor, but a fluffy fish attractor is rarely a REFUGE.

Also note from reading Dr.Dave's PBoss article about evergreen trees as structure, that Christmas trees when used as fish structure begin their placement as dense cover and after several years gradually become fluffy structure - due top leaf - stem deterioration.

Remember that structure or obstructions where ever placed will prevent any seining of that area for fish sampling purposes.


You ask - “How do I tell whitch are the slow growing fish? Is this done by fishing or????” Good question. My opinion, and simply put is this – U sample or collect your fish by whatever means. Compare the length and body weight of each fish to the standard weight for that species. (Search - standard weight on this forum.) There are a couple references to computer downloads that will provide the standard weight for various fish. I can help with this task if you have trouble. If the fish are 80% or more of the standard weight, then U assume they are getting ample amounts of food because they are fat, and thus they are growing at the best rate that their genetics allows.

I got rushed for time on this one and I may have forgotten something and I can clean it up later. I am interested in other experienced opinions about your topic. Good luck. Keep us informed how things are progressing. We are interested.

Postscript. If any resident members have read thus far and and are still with me, and since the topic of GG has re-emergged,,,, can someone start or rekindle the torch (in another topic or post) about Deb and what happened to the photos of the large GG she promised us last year? If no one has nerve to start this, I will reignite the torch soon.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#16119 12/09/06 05:27 PM
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This may help a little.

Topic: ? Adding cover = greater fish growth

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000114;p=1
















#16120 12/09/06 05:49 PM
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Hehehe this is getting nuts.. Say a prayer buy 25 CC, and 25 HSB, 150 BG, 50 RES, and some fat heads, say a prayer and stock them, have some fun... hehe Since its new the worry might be the water quality but.... I think the overall consenses is close to this , question is now or in the spring??? The impatiant new ponder in me says jump in the car tomarrow and go get them. But this is why I am a newbie and may make some mistakes along the way. I think your pretty safe here.


Joey
#16121 12/09/06 07:43 PM
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I have a small pond and need to change fishing methods and target different species frequently. The fish seem to condition to bait, bobbers and lures quite quickly. What worked yesterday will not work today. You might keep this is mind when you stock and put in enough different types to allow for as much fishing as you want to do.


1/4 & 3/4 acre ponds. A thousand miles from no where and there is no place I want to be...
Dwight Yoakam
#16122 12/09/06 08:48 PM
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thank you for everyone's input. I plan on putting "some" in sooner than later. I like the idea of trout. Is it to late for that? If not, where can a guy in Oklahoma get them?


brand new, never before used 1/4 acre pond.
#16123 12/09/06 09:09 PM
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OKie,

here is what you got to look forward to. I put 54 rainbows a month ago. 7 - 10 inchers. 75 cent a piece. There supposed to grow approx a inch a month. I posted this link before on another thread but thought you might like it.

Trout Feeding


Joey
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