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#158334 04/12/09 09:24 PM
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We bought a house last year with a .75 acre spring fed pond. I'm new to PM but as a biology major I at least knew to survey the resident population. I found BG and some RES were stocked when the pond was built three years ago. There was no sign of any predators aside from a heron and monster snapping turtle. Last year I stocked 60 (5-7" LMB) and 25 CC. The BG spawned and thrived last summer, but my bass didn't grow much despite plenty of YOY BG. There are a lot of bigger BG in the pond, but I am concerned about appropriate sized food for my bass and CC.

Two weeks ago I put in 200 FHM, but after seeing how little fish that actually was I am thinking I need more of something. Should I add more small BG, more FHM, something else or let the scenario play out? Considering the BG were unchecked for several years the bass should be bigger, right?

Pond is healthy and we plan on switching over to feed in a couple weeks here for the CC and BG to help the LMB grow. I did some fishing/sampling today and did catch a hungry, but skinny 8.5" LMB, so they did survive the winter and did more growing than I thought.

Thanks in advance, I am very impressed with PB and it's well informed members.




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Hello, BB, welcome to PB.

That limited amount of growth does seem curiously small if there were plenty of small BG and if the bass have been in for a whole year. 60 does not sound like way too many bass.

1. When did you add the bass?
2. Were they bought commercially or transferred from another BOW?
3. What kind of growth did the CC have?
4. Can you tell us more about the BG population? Maybe they spawned but did not produce many offspring.

Feeding should help the CC directly and the LMB indirectly (by promoting better BG spawning). It would be very hard/expensive to establish a breeding population of FHM at this time; let's figure out how to tweak your permanent forage base if needed.

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 04/12/09 09:49 PM.

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I agree that 60 LMB of 5"-7" is not too many for a .75 acre pond. In fact I would say it is just about right, maybe a tad on the light side...

I too am baffled why the growth of your LMB is so slow. As Theo said, adding more FHM is just a VERY expensive feeding regime. It's hard enough to establish FHM before stocking bass and about impossible after you have stocked them.

A couple other questions for you:

Is there aquatic vegetation in the pond? Species, % of pond covered?

Substrate the pond is made out of? Mud, clay, sand etc?

Have you done a seine survey of your pond, if so what were the results?

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I added the LMB around this time last year. They were bought from a commercial fish dealer in OH. On a few occasions I did see the bass actively harass the BG, but they spent most of their time slurping on the surface (possibly feed raised?).

I have never seen the catfish in the pond. I have a 10' hole that is roughly 20 x 30. I would bet the catifsh are spending most of their time in this hole, but I have never been able to catch one. My bait is instantly gobbled up by the aggressive BG. I plan on starting the feeding program this week and will hopefully start seeing the elusive CC.

I know that I have BG and RES in the pond, but from what I have seen I have a suspicion that my BG are hybrids. I have not spent sufficient time to analyze the BG to determine what exactly I have. The fish are generally 3-6".

The BG did spawn and during that time there were fry all over the pond and we saw BG of all sizes for awhile. However I did notice that the nest sites were concentrated to a small portion of the pond although most of the pond would make good spawning habitat. For the amount of fish in the pond the nest sites seemed off. They weren't a lot of them and the spawning seemed some what shortlived. This leads me to think I may have hybrids, hence less females and nesting sites (I could be wrong). Post spawn the water became very clear. It was the clearest I have ever seen it and I think it may have been a less than ideal situation for the BG fry's survival.(The pond was managed by a company last summer that killed the growth once or twice a month. Could be the reason for the poor water quality).

CJB...

There is a good amount of vegetation in the pond during late spring-summer. At its peak I would say 40%. The vegetation is predominantly a thin filamentous plant that currently is in clumps with columns rising just below the surface.

I did not build the pond and honestly I do not know. The pond has a muddy/silty bottom, but there are several sand/gravel pits in the area. Generally the pond has a dark green color with a good amount of eutraphication. The pond is spring fed and it is technically part of a watershed that includes several farms.

Finally I have not yet done a seine survey. My knowledge of the fish population is based off of both fishing sampling and visual confirmations. I do plan on casting nets once the fish become more active. Current water temps are 50F.





Last edited by Black Bass; 04/12/09 11:41 PM.



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Hybrid BG may explain low reproduction rates...

pure BG:



hybrid BG:



Depending on how the cross was made, male BG x female GSF or vice versa males can outnumber females by more than 9 to 1... This leads to low reproduction. As you said your pond had no bass in it, which may be why hybrids were used, if in fact they were. See if you can hook a few and take some pictures if you are unsure. Or as the weather warms and you want to do a seine survey take photos and we'll try to identify what you have. Hybrids will back cross to parental species but this is not ideal. You may need to stock pure blooded BG. In a couple years they should out compete your hybrids which will eventually die off.

The bass slurping on the surface is interesting and may indicate feed trained fish. It has now been a year since they were fed, but they may pick up on it if you begin a new feeding program. I am not the guy to talk about feeding though. Theo and others have far more knowledge in that area.

As far as the CC go, you didn't mention how large they were at stocking but as long as they were 6" plus I doubt they were eaten unless you have an otter issue. Once you start feeding you should see them. .75 acres isn't that vast an area for them to hide in...

Once we learn a little more about your fish population, we can start to figure out how to help your bass out more.

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BLACK BASS:
Welcome to the Pond Boss Family of like-minded folk. With your biology talents you will be a great contributor to this great site!


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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
The bass slurping on the surface is interesting and may indicate feed trained fish. It has now been a year since they were fed, but they may pick up on it if you begin a new feeding program. I am not the guy to talk about feeding though. Theo and others have far more knowledge in that area.


Couldn't this "slurping" also be the bass "piping" as in low DO in the pond? Have you checked the pond's DO during the observance of this "slurping"? I don't know, I'm no expert, more like one of the village idiots, but I seem to recall reading that fishing piping, slurping, gulping, or singing Barry Manilow songs while at the surface of water is not a good sign.


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Welcome Black Bass. Here is a link to Bruce's archive on Common pond fish primer (sunfish edition) which should help with id. Also look at the second link on various HBG pics.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482


HBG pic/question - http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=1341&Number=14459#Post14459

Can you provide info on the size and numbers of BG/HBG - population status ( do you see lots of 2-3 inch BG ?). If you saw tons of BG yoy then then you have some regular BG in #s. In most HBG studies where LMB are present very , very few to 0 HBG offspring survive to 1 year. It is a combo of what CJ said wrt male % and #s and predation by LMB.
















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Alright tons of good info and insights. I plan on doing some more fishing today (w/ nightcrawlers) to get pictures and sizes. The water is still cold here in Northern Ohio and very dark so I am not seeing a lot of fish right now.

The late spring/summer behavior of the bass was similar to rising trout right before the quick "hit and run action", they were in the open at the surface waiting for something. I really have never seen this behavior before, but I've never raised bass either. I do not know the DO content, but I plan on testing it. The pond is spring fed and the water is always moving down the drainage pipe, but it is possible the DO could be low especially in the summer.

The HBG vs BG identification is tricky so I will post pictures tonight or tomorrow of what I see.




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Alright I have taken several pictures of the fish I caught tonight. The fish ranged from 3" - 6". I think I have two or three kinds of fish here.

#1
[img]http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=354314008/PictureID=9272118008/a=28825360_28825360/t_=28825360[/img]

#2
[img]http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=354314008/PictureID=9272118008/a=28825360_28825360/t_=28825360[/img]

#3
[img]http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=354314008/PictureID=9272118008/a=28825360_28825360/t_=28825360[/img]

#4
[img]http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=354314008/PictureID=9272118008/a=28825360_28825360/t_=28825360[/img]

The fish were very active despite cold water. I also realized that I am having issues seeing the fish. There must of been 60 fish in 2' of water just off the shore, but I really couldn't see them until I brought them in close. I did catch a LMB he was 6" but looked as if he was getting a belly on him (maybe my FHM did the trick). I caught fish everywhere in the lake and it took no longer then 8 seconds to get a hit. Also I did see a few smaller fish nibbling in the shallows at my bait, maybe 2-2.5".

Finally I heard what sounded like a bass ambushing forage. I heard a big splash then looked over and saw water flying and big ripples, this was no 6" LMB. Maybe there is a big one in there after all (Still very skeptical). We recently did stock white amur w/ the FHM and I was told that they do break water sometimes, but do they make loud splashing sounds?

First time posting pics, hope it works

Last edited by Black Bass; 04/13/09 11:28 PM.



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Sorry the images didn't upload...Here is my second attempt.

So this is what I am thinking after reading through the HBG thread...Please let me know what you think.

Hybrid #1



Red Ear Sunfish x GSF



Smaller fish maybe a BG x HBG #1



Another Hybrid #1 that looks like it is a HBG x GSF



There is a whole mess of panfish species in my pond right now. Little to no predation lets nature run wild. Now what the heck do I do to get my bass going in this genetic cess pool?

Last edited by Black Bass; 04/13/09 11:26 PM.



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I think there's been hanky panky with a greenie in all the pics.


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Wow! You weren't kidding when you said you had a sunfish hybrid mix of a pond! When dealing with hybrid sunfish, its really hard to have completely accurate ID's without looking at the gill rakers, but I'll give it my best.


 Originally Posted By: Black Bass


I am guessing a BGxBGxGSF as in a sunfish that is 3/4 BG, 1/4 GSF. Although it maybe a rare female BGxGSF hybrid.


It maybe a RESxGSF as you said, but I am thinking it is more likely just a BGXGSF. The red or orange on the opercle is often times seen in a pure GSF and may just be particularly strong in this fish.


Looks like a pure BG to me.



Like the first pic, I am guessing a BGxBGxGSF as in a sunfish that is 3/4 BG, 1/4 GSF. Although it maybe a rare female BGxGSF hybrid but since their are two of them now, more likely the BGxBGxGSF theory...


I am still a bit baffled as to why the bass growth was so slow. Granted there is a substantial amount of hybrids in your pond but you mentioned seeing numerous YOY sunfish last year and there does seem to be some pure BG in your pond. I think a seine survey may help break down the percentages of each hybrid and pure bred. Also, what is your end goal? Large trophy bass, balanced fishery or trophy sunfish?

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CJB I definitely think a seine survey is in order. I need to know how much food is available for my bass.

Ultimately I would like to have a trophy bass type fishery, but wouldn't mind a balanced fishery with a focus on larger bass.I understand ecosystems do not change overnight, but I am willing to put the work into it to achieve my goals.

There very well could be a few bass that are developing nicely, but yesterday was the first sign I've seen.

I will find out the distribution and size of the sunfish species before doing anything else.

Thanks for your help. I will talk to you guys a bit later after my survey.




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If the seine survey of your sunfish lollapalooza shows a good population, it's possible that excessive cover is keeping the LMB skinny. A long shot could be the CC are intimidating and chasing the LMB, making them stay in hiding instead of foraging aggressively. A very long shot would be disease or water quality issues.

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CJ:
I'm betting that the 2nd pic is a Greenie/pumpkinseed hybrid. Thoughts?

That pond IS a melting pot of sunfish!


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Alright Black Bass, when you've done a seine survey let us know what you end up with. I would wait until early June or so to make sure your bass have had a chance to spawn. That will give you the best results. For a good guide check this Link out. Lots of good info in it...

It might be esshup... There was no mention of PS being stocked, but you never know what was snuck in! In small managed ponds, you usually know what species of sunfish are in there, so its easier to identify hybrids. In larger lakes where there can be a half dozen or more different sunfish species, it can get more challenging! Here is a known PSxGSF hybrid.



But like I said, without seeing gill rakers, most of the ID's are just guestimations...

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Thanks for all the advice guys, btw CJB the link above was helpful. I'll check back in after I get a better understanding of my fish population.




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Sounds good, best of luck... We'll be here to help!

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Alright people it's been awhile since I've posted and I thought I would check in as I have more questions as the scene at the pond gets weirder.

Alright the last two weeks I have started feeding my fish and today in a light drizzle saw my first action. Fish in NE corner of the pond were very active once the food made it to the covered edge.

I've been fishing at least 4 days a week and I have seen more of the same with the sunfish. It looks like I have three different species in there. Most of what I catch looks like either the pumpkinseed x GSF or what we thought were pure BG from above. When the water cleared on Monday I saw tons of small YOY fish, but what I'm catching are these larger sunfish or BG(60% 5"+).

I have also found the bass and what I'm seeing is not encouraging. The bass are still in the 5-7" range and the heads are large compared to the bodies. Maybe this is common at this size, but they just don't look right. I've been catching quite a few and not one has been over 8". The bass need another couple inches to thrive in this pond, but I have a feeling they are really struggling getting there.

I also have caught a couple crappie. Recently I have removed all the barbs on my hooks as I inadvertently had a bass swallow a rooster-tail (As I grabbed the dogs toy out of the water). It was sad as he was a larger one, may of made it but it didn't look good. Anyway I didn't get a pic of the crappie as it fell off as I went to grab it, but this thing was HUGE (at least 12" possibly 14"). The presence of this guy along with two other nice ones I caught are telling me that my LMB aren't the kings of pond.

OK my question is what can I do to favor my LMB? Also I think I need to start harvesting some of these larger sunfish and crappies, but do not want to hurt the reproduction of the sunfish. What size forage fish do I take and what rate of harvest is safe? (Definitely open to all suggestions.)




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Well, the word that crappie are in your pond is not a good one if your goal is leaning towards a trophy bass pond... It's not the end of the world though!

First, I would keep every single crappie you catch, from a little 2 incher to the biggest one. They are quite tasty so enjoy the fish fries. Your BG and other mixed sunfish should be spawning within the next month or so. All those new YOY fish will be excellent food for those 7" to 8" LMB. It should help their growth rate. All those YOY fish may actually be baby crappie born this year and not baby sunfish from last year, depending on the size. See if you can get a seine around them or toss a cast net over them to find out what they are for sure.

As your sunfish population grows, most of the hybrids should die out of population and you should end up with mostly BG. This will help increase your forage base.

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I pulled this fatty out tonight. This makes three big crappie this week. This time I kept the guy.

Crappie

(Yeah if something seems off it's my dyslexic ruler)

It's all out war on the crappie for the next couple weeks. I've never specifically targeted crappie before, anyone have any suggestions on lure/bait choices?

I caught tonight's fish on a Spoon (1.5" long) and the other two large ones on a 3" Chartreuse Grub. The little ones seem to enjoy the Grubs too.

Last edited by Black Bass; 05/02/09 01:48 AM.



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Wow! What a pretty and nice crappie...

Maybe your pond is unique and will support a great crappie fishery? Who knows... Lots of guys would be happy to consistently catch crappie like that!

If you're trying to hammer crappie, 1.5"-2" shiner on a size 4-6 hook about 3 feet under a float. A small split shot in between the float and shiner and that rig is deadly this time of year!

If you are going artificial, my old time favorite were the Rebel Ghost minnows that would suspend. I don't think they make them anymore sadly. I also like any other tiny crankbait you can get to stay about 2 to 3 feet deep. You can also use little hair jigs under a float as well with a wax worm on it...

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I think I would also keep the stunted bass. They are serving no purpose and will never reach their potential.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Since my last update the water has warmed and things are looking up for my pond. First off I have been targeting the Crappie for removal. So far I have removed 30 5-7" fish and two slabs like the one pictured above. They are becoming harder to catch and to be honest I don't think they are dominating the pond.

Also during the crappie harvesting I have noticed that I have a lot more pure BG then I thought. Once the water hit the upper 50s my BG catches have been 75% pure BG to 25% HBG. Also I caught several large females ripe with eggs, probably ready to spawn in a few weeks.

The fish have taken to the pellets and over all I'm definitely making progress. My bass appear to putting on some weight as well. There is a small drainage pond by my work filled with fingerling BG. I have been putting in 30-40 a week to supplement the bass until the spawn starts. No CC's caught yet, but I've seen a couple while feeding.

Thanks for all the help and I will keep you guys updated.




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