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#156223 03/31/09 12:18 PM
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My 1/2 acre pond is going on its 4th year and last year the snail population exploded. I currently have YP and SMB which seem to be doing well. My thought was to put in 25 pumpkinseeds to help control the snails. What are the long term tendencies of PS? Are they prolific spawners?

Thanks!

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Pumkinseeds are prolific spawners much like BG. Maybe Bill Cody can weigh in as to whether or not your YP and SMB will be sufficient in keeping their numbers under control.

Somehow I am guessing, "that it all depends...."



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PS also tend to stunt/overpopulate usually in conjunction with BG. Dave Willis has cautioned several times about the ability of SMB to control two productive species like YP and PS (or BG). But it would depend on the situation and the numbers and sizes. What about RES as they are not known to stunt.
















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ewest, if g money is a good halfway up the LP in Michigan, not too far from Bay City, that's pretty much past where RES can make it most Winters in small waters.

IF he stayed right on top of the YP/PS populations, managing the YP for large size and maximum predatory ability, he might be able to control the numbers in 1/2 acre. But I would want to be very intensely managing the pond if it were me (heck, I would anyway regardless of the species involved).

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 03/31/09 04:44 PM.

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I'm guessing G Monkey can't get any redears up there but I could be wrong. The fish geeks on NANFA tell me pumpkinseeds do not produce as many fry as bluegills. Not true?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 03/31/09 04:43 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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There is some question but I believe that is correct Cecil. PS eggs per year per female - depending on which info you believe , is from about 1100 to 13000 while RES are from 8000 to 30000.

Most references to stunting in PS that I have seen are in combination with BG. After a concerted effort several of us can't find a reference to or anyone who has seen a stunted/overpopulated RES situation. I will check some more tonight.
















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g monkey - can you post a close up clear picture of the snails that you have?


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Guys. It's g money. Not g monkey. Don't take it personally G, it's just a typo but you know how these things can go, I don't want you to end up with a goofy nick name.


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Theo I agree. If RES won't work I would go with some PS (a few). No doubt PS can be controlled in his pond. 25 adults would be a good place to start since there are adult YP and SMB.
















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GMoney-

Anyone consider a hybrid whose offspring have low fedundity? RESxGSH, RESxBG, RESxPS, PSxBG? Perhaps the GSH, BG genes would result in a more hearty fish that could more easily withstand the MI winters?


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I am actually curious about PS fecundity in the absence of BG. Ewest, is there any research on this showing that they do not stunt if BG are absent? I think it would be fun to have a SMB, YP, PS, RES pond.



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Shorty, I don't know of any studies that directly answer your question. I do know that it is quite clear that pumpkinseeds can and do overpopulate. They are easily controlled by LMB, just as are BLG. They are not the "redear of the north" as I discovered quite a few years ago. They are similar in their habits of feeding on snails, but not in reproductive potential.

Maybe Eric will know of any studies on the BLG/Pump seed question that you asked.


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I will check Shorty. Maybe a tough question to find as most studies are done on big waters with multiple species. IIRC several of those studies cautioned about RES and PS in the same water but I think it was with BG present.

teehjaeh57 in this case the cross would need to have pharyngeal teeth/crushers to eat the snails. I don't know if that gene/trait is included in any of the RES or PS Xs.


Last edited by ewest; 04/01/09 11:43 AM.















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I will get a picture out here tonight or tomorrow, thanks for responses!

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 Originally Posted By: ewest
I will check Shorty. Maybe a tough question to find as most studies are done on big waters with multiple species. IIRC several of those studies cautioned about RES and PS in the same water but I think it was with BG present.

teehjaeh57 in this case the cross would need to have pharyngeal teeth/crushers to eat the snails. I don't know if that gene/trait is included in any of the RES or PS Xs.


Great point Ewest. I am planning on dedicating a .2 acre watershed to RES/BG hybrid reproduction. With Bruce's help perhaps I can help document what traits are passed along...I'm hoping large size of a RES and aggressive nature of a BG - but the pharyngeal teeth would be a big bonus trait to pass along...


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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Great point Ewest. I am planning on dedicating a .2 acre watershed to RES/BG hybrid reproduction. With Bruce's help perhaps I can help document influence what traits are passed along...I'm hoping large size of a RES and aggressive nature of a BG - but the pharyngeal teeth would be a big bonus trait to pass along...

Bwa-ha-ha!


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I see bg X re hybrids pretty often from some of the local natural lakes. They tend to be a little bigger than the average bluegill.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: ewest
IIRC several of those studies cautioned about RES and PS in the same water but I think it was with BG present.


Any idea why this is? I have read the same cautions but have never really found a reason. I have heard RES out compete PS but that is all I have found. You would think it would be the other way around. I know of only a couple ponds that have both RES and PS in them though...

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Here is a picture of the snails...



I don't think I be getting any PS this spring though. I called Imlay City Fish Farm, and they will not have any until this fall.

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How big are those snails ? They may be to big for PS or RES.

CJ I looked a little last night with no luck. I will find the source and post it.

Last edited by ewest; 04/02/09 09:32 AM.















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Dr. Willis, do you think that PS might simply stunt from the smaller gape size of YP and SMB rather a fecundity issue. To me it seems that if the only predators present are YP and SMB then PS over 5" wouldn't really need to fear predation from either one. Is this the size that PS typical stunt at in YP and SMB ponds?



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 Originally Posted By: ewest
I will check Shorty. Maybe a tough question to find as most studies are done on big waters with multiple species. IIRC several of those studies cautioned about RES and PS in the same water but I think it was with BG present.

teehjaeh57 in this case the cross would need to have pharyngeal teeth/crushers to eat the snails. I don't know if that gene/trait is included in any of the RES or PS Xs.


Not to go out in left field but I just noticed a post on darters on the NANFA forum. Seems darters are murder on snails, in this case rams horn snails. I guess you can't keep a rams horn snail in an aquarium with darters.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Guys. It's g money. Not g monkey. Don't take it personally G, it's just a typo but you know how these things can go, I don't want you to end up with a goofy nick name.


So then G-money-hungry-monkey is out of the question then? \:\/ \:D

Just having some fun. Please don't delete my post. \:\(

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/02/09 10:27 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: g money
Here is a picture of the snails...



I don't think I be getting any PS this spring though. I called Imlay City Fish Farm, and they will not have any until this fall.


I'm no expert but those look like the same ones I have in my pond known as ramshorn snails. Bill Cody is the expert though so we can wait for him. Bill showed me I have two types in my ponds. One is easier to crush and the fish prefer it. Bill?



Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/02/09 10:26 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Ramshorn (left) is correct Cecil and PS and RES love them. Don't know if they can eat one that big (?size).
















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