Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
NADam, NavyPT, Pondhopper2500, Rockfish, Geese Chasers
18,328 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,719
Posts554,411
Members18,328
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,074
ewest 21,408
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,000
Who's Online Now
3 members (anthropic, NADam, Pat Williamson), 1,093 guests, and 194 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
I have a new Pond approximately 3.0 acres and a Dam which is 360 foot long and 100 foot wide that we installed a PVC 12" Siphon System in the Dam this January. The Pond slowly filled with spring water to reach normal level and began flowing thru the 12" line March 5 2009 without incident.
I ordered the PVC pipe and connectors thru Pond Dam Piping Systems in Georgia and used the slow setting glue like they required on the pipe and connectors.

Problem: last week it rained and the pond level began to rise and got over the 4" vent piping which was approximated 1" from the normal pond level.
Evidently it started to siphon overnight for the first time and we discovered the failure next day. The 22 degree ell downstream of the 12" horizontal pipe that crosses the dam crown pulled loose and/or seperated from the pipe and dropped approximately one foot down.
any suggestions to prevent re-occurrence? plan to clean, prime, glue and install #10 stainless steel 1-1/4"screws in connections and ensure piping supported evenly. Planning repairs Friday 03/20/09
Thanks, JET cell phone 903 391-1772


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 9
C
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
C
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 9
How about some t post's in the ground that block the outlet. That should hold the pipes in place and shouldn't cause any problems if the starts again if you only place one of them.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Hi JET; good to have you on board at the Pond Boss forum.
-
I'm having a hard time accepting that a properly glued PVC joint "separated". No offense intended, but I have to question if something went askew during the gluing process.
First off, gluing 12" dia PVC had to be incredibly difficult. We wrestled with 6" and that was bad enough. I've got to imagine that you had to use the bottom of a bucket on a backhoe to push them together for the 30 - 60 seconds required to cure without rejection. Was a primer used? (I'm not sure if primer is SOP for 12"; I assume it is) Did you mark the male side of each connection at the full depth of the joint to verify that the pipe was slid all the way in as they were connected? In other words, are you sure the connection was inserted all the way to the base of the female side? Also, was it fairly hot outside when the connections were made? Once you approach 90 degrees temperature, even the slow cure cement dries very quickly.
My experiences with PVC have yielded questionable to lousy quality connections after the first try. On the rare occassions that a joint did not go well, or got rejected by the cure process to the point that I would not accept it, trying to clean the pipe with solvent or primer and re-gluing was even worse. Once the plastic has been chemically melted once, it loses some of it's dimension and the connection is sloppy.
-
Once again, I can't even relate to working with 12" PVC, so my ramblings could be lost in a land that I am unfamiliar with. One thing for sure; I tip my hat to you for even taking it on.

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,902
R
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,902
Ditto what Brettski said. It's very easy to make a bad joint with that large a pipe. When reconnecting it would be wise use a new ell & cut off the "used" end of the pipe for the new connection. Also I would try to somehow support the bottom/leaving end of the pipe. A 12" pipe full of water is going to exert quite a pull on the joints.


Pond Boss Subscriber & Books Owner


If you can read this ... thank a teacher. Since it's in english ... thank our military!
Ric
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
Hi Jet
Welcome to the forum.
You found the place where more people know more about things that went wrong than anywhere.

Usa a little sand paper to help clean the pipe, it will help the gule to work.

Get a few bags of sacreet it will help hold the pipe in place

Let us know how thingh work out.
Otto

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 773
Likes: 1
E
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
E
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 773
Likes: 1
I've never worked with 12 inch PVC, so I can't speak from experience on that size of pipe. I've done allot of work on 6 inch and smaller PVC pipe and have some knowledge of how it works.

First, primer is a must. Purple primer is the standard and I don't even know if there is any other kind. Calling it primer is sort of misleading. It's not a primer in comparison to paint, but is actually a conditioner that starts a chemical reaction in the PVC for the glue. In joints that I've seen fail, there is usually just a hint of primer on them. I'm no scientist, but I've never seen a joint fail with plenty of purple primer on it.

Next, of the glues available to use on PVC pipe, the clear glue is the best. Each color has a specialty that it does, but none are as strong as the clear. In my area, it's the only glue allowed for water lines.

The glue is also misnamed. It doesn't really work as a glue when compared to wood glue. It doesn't actually bond the two pieces together, but instead, it sort or welds the plastic together.

The primer started the process and actually softens the PVC. Then the glue breaks down the PVC and bonds the two pieces together into one.

If you ever manage to pull apart or break off a properly glued PVC connection, you will see that the glued area doesn't fail. It will be the PVC itself that breaks off inside the pipe wall.

The only reason your pipe failed was that it wasn't primed and glued properly.

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
thanks Chris, I will try the t-posts idea, I have t-posts on both sides at the end of the 45 degree ell and have it tied down with wire over the 45 to keep from "kicking up" but most likely the soil that is over the pipe in the dam will do this but i did this for added insurance.
I will try this also.

JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
To Brettski and Ric,

I also believe this may have not been Purple Primed and/or slow setting glued properly and yes 12" schedule 40 pvc pipe and connectors is heavy and hard to work with and this was my first attempt at this task so most likely the possibility of indequate application may have contributed to the failure.

Kieth Johnson at Pond Dam Piping, LLC has been most helpful in working with me on this issue, I purchased the materials from him and had it shipped here.

today I plan to "get down in the hole" and look closely at the pipe end and the 22 degree ell end to see I believe we can "properly clean up the pipe outside and ell inside in order to re-connect, if ell looks bad or cracked, will order new ell.

I ordered new 12" couplin to be able to cut pipe in half or thirds so it won't be so heavy in order to help re-connect.

also..... installing the s/s screws will help secure it hopefully.

Bill May in Atlanta called me yesterday and he said he has installed over 1400 of these size siphons and he believes what we intend to do will take care of the problem.
Thanks for your suggestions, input and questions.

also, we intend to put 60# concrete bags under and over and behind 45 ell to help support and hold line at proper angle and hand fill and pack dirt under and around the line to help prevent any voids.

JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
Eddie,
I believe you are right and we will try to get it done right this time.

Thanks JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
thanks Otto,

We will try all of that.

JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Just one last note, JET.
At the risk of stating what might be the obvious (and as I noted in my first post above), the chemical reaction of the glue during the bonding process causes rejection. The pipes actually push apart and separate during the cure. This occurs only during the seconds after they are initially pushed together. It is critical to maintain pressure on the connection (continually pushing them together) for the time it takes for the chemical bond (melting and curing of the plastics at the joint) to occur. This is usually no more than 30 seconds or so maximum; maybe less...but unsure on 12" pipe. That is why I always use a sharpie marker to measure back from the end of the male pipe and mark on the pipe exactly how far the female side will ride up over it. That way I can watch and verify that A) the pipe connection is seated all the way in B) it is not being rejected or pushed out.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
ps;
I think running stainless screws into the pipe is a mistake. When properly glued PVC joint fails, it won't happen due to the 2 pipes or fittings separating. It will be a structural failure of the actual pipe or fitting.

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 274
C
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
C
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 274
a siphon will expose any bad joints, no doubt about it, and the pipe does need to be well bedded so that it doesnt move around at all.

why dont you post pictures of your setup-intake outlet vent? failure?

a 12 inch siphon sounds pretty impressive, how far below pond level is the outlet? how many acres of drainage do you have?

keep small animals out of it or they will be transported.

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
JET

Did you get a chance to get in the hole and make a inspection.

Otto

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
got in hole yesterday, it appears we did not have enough purple primer on pipe and inside ell. very little glue "build-up" and appears both surfaces can be easily cleaned for re-attachement friday, weather permitting.SUSPECT THIS JOINT SLIPPED OFF AFTER WE COVERED IT UP DURING INSTALLATION.

we intend to try to re-connect with-out cutting pipe and installing coupling. have excellent track hoe operator that truly believes he can rig up to insert male into female position once we have it ready to insert.

will take pictures if I get time.

thanks JET HAVE TO WORK TODAY..ONLY WORK 1 DAY A WEEK NOW.


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
Good luck. Keep us posted if you get time..

Do not stop talking with on the fourm.

Otto

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
took pictures but no time to figure out how to import...perhaps later

jet


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
Jet
Did you get the pipe back togather.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
Got the pipe back together Friday using track-hoe and three men.
dug along each side carefully and exposed line, hand uncovered the top soil.
discovered no other joint seperations.

cleaned pipe end and inside 22 degree ell.
rigged sling to raise and support line into connect position.
quickly purple primed inside ell, outside pipe, inside ell second time, applied heavy gray slow set cement inside ell, outside of pipe, then track-hoe operator positioned and pulled the downslope line and ell onto the pipe end quickly and got good penetration of female onto male pipe end, held same in place for approximately 15 minutes, then pre-drilled and installed #10 1-1/4 inch stainless steel screws in 22 degree ell top and both sides, we also put stainless screws in downstream joints before we moved the line as insurance for the lift and pull task.
we then poured a concrete support under the 22 degree ell and the 22 degree ell further downstream which are the pressure points of the downslope line, then we hand packed the soil in and under remainder of the downslope line until no voids present.
re-filled top with hoe, packed, leveled/smoothed backslope soil, re-planted rye and fertilized.
water began flowing out 12"ine approxiately 24 hours later'

we believe if we had gotten a good primer and glue job the first time, this would not have happened.

everything else we did yesterday was for insurance but probably not necessary.
If we get time and figure out how to import the pictures, we will later.
Thanks for all your help and recommendations...good information on this forum.

will keep you posted on siphon performance.

JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Nice recovery, JET. V glad it worked out for ya.

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
O
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
O
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,074
Way to go JET. Do not forget to tell people about us.

Otto

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
Jet,

I would worry about the screws. If they are on the "intake" (suction) side of the siphon, even a small air leak can stop the siphon, because air is many times easier to pull up hill than water. The "outlet" (pressure) side is not as critical, but a 100% seal is still desirable.

If your siphon gradually stops on you, check for small air leaks at the screws or joints on the suction side.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
J
JET Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
J
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 23
I put rubber washer seals on each s/s screw and all screws are on discharge side of line, nothing on suction side but we will watch for this just in case.

We will however chech each suction side connection for possible air leaks including the 4" vent line.... what would be the easiest way to check for small air leaks on the suction side ??....water perhaps and/or soap bubbles ?

JET


Jimmy Terrell (JET)
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,074
Likes: 670
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,074
Likes: 670
I believe the soap would only work on a pressurized pipe, not one in vaccum. What about a bit of dye (food or other) at the vaccum areas that you want to check? If the discharge water turns color then you know the dye was sucked in.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 274
C
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
C
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 274
Jimmy, thats a good question, that i should know the answer to, i would say pressure test (positive) but setting up for a such a test would be problematic.

and you were going to get us pictures.

once siphon is going it will suck air and you will likely be able to find this with sound. if the leak is below water and small then no problem. if joint is above water and ground you will hear when siphon working, if it is below ground, well, that depends on how paranoid you are.

hopefully you only have 6 joints above the surface of pond. and all of those should be at highest point where vacuum is the least. it sounds like you have high point vent, we could probly devize method to burp the system, nah.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Recent Posts
What do CC do ?
by Pat Williamson - 12/03/23 11:45 PM
Happy Birthday Pat Williamson!
by Pat Williamson - 12/03/23 11:42 PM
What makes exceptional trophy lakes different?
by catscratch - 12/03/23 09:46 PM
Pond won’t freeze
by Dave Davidson1 - 12/03/23 08:20 PM
My pond property listing
by Dave Davidson1 - 12/03/23 07:45 PM
Happy Birtday Highflyer!
by Zep - 12/03/23 07:37 PM
Floridas not biting?
by FireIsHot - 12/03/23 02:16 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by Sunil - 12/03/23 01:26 PM
70 acre dam build
by FishinRod - 12/03/23 11:42 AM
Aerators running in winter?
by esshup - 12/03/23 10:11 AM
Happy Birthday Dave Davidson.
by snrub - 12/02/23 09:06 PM
Happy Birthday Zep!
by Dave Davidson1 - 12/02/23 06:51 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12
Caught fishing without permission
Caught fishing without permission
by Theo Gallus, June 22

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5