Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Hook Shy Fish

Aaron,
I do understand your goal, it is just that I don't think using pellet type bait is going to measurably change the end result. As I said before I used to get left over veggies from the market and throw it to my fish every day and every day I could catch fish on anyone of the veggies. The pacu would scatter when the first fish was caught, but the tilapia would stay until the bitter end. I got bored and other projects took me away. So I just tossed the pellets all at once and went about my business.
Now no one, not even the carp, hits veggies or anything else. They didn't learn not to hit them, they learned (were conditioned) to eat only pellets.
They are not hook shy, with the exception of a few barramundi, I keep everything that I catch and that is not very many. They are bait shy for want of a better term.

Plus if you get to the point where the old seasoned vets don't take the pellet bait, only the young bucks, culling becomes easier and you have actually furthered your goal.

Hey Rad, great points. I have experience with Pacu in aquariums, and they're amazingly aggressive fish. My tilapia are as well.

Regarding the last point I agree culling becomes easier, but my point is that if "the old seasoned vets don't take the pellet bait" - well, if that's true I think that they're not eating pellets as aggressively that's bad for their ultimate growth. Doesn't mean they still won't do well as you say.

Question:

When we say fish aren't going to eat pellets as agressively, are we saying they will eat fewer pellets, or the same amount over a great time?

After all, fish probably only have to feed on pellets for 30 minutes a day to meet all of their nutritional needs.

It would seem to me that a fish that is being caught on the same food it is expected to eat to grow is going to less aggressively feed on the food which will lead to it eating less of it and growing less rapidly...

I truly believe fish like humans, like dogs, like deer have different temperaments. Just like some dogs are more aggressive to bite, just like some bucks may be more apt to fight and come into a set of rattling antlers, some LMB, BG etc are more aggresive and will react differently to being caught multiple times.

The same as the buck who comes into rattling antlers or estrous doe bleat and the hunter just misses him or he spooks before the hunter gets a shot. He is going to be more wary next time he comes into the sounds of a fighting buck or estrous doe... This may mean he breeds less does in the long run. However, some bucks are just more aggressive, don't learn and get shot... So in the long run, that more timid buck may breed more does.

The question becomes how much to multiple bad experiences a fish experiences before it causes them to become so timid that it affects the amount of pellets it takes in.

My opinion is they'll eat fewer over a long period of time.

The amount of calories left in a fish at any one time is the results of the energy they've consumed minus the energy (calories) they've burned hunting and living. The rest is stored as body weight. (Reminds me of the story of our old friend Ray.)

Just as a fish is dead with one minute of zero oxygen, to be super fish it's got to maximize calories every day, week, month, year - for its entire life.

My guess is that 'to meet their nutritional needs' is a significantly different number than to maximize their growth potential. Somewhere between is 'to eat enough to get fat' and make most pond owners happy. This is why I think pellets are just phenomenal, they're such a benefit over a normal 'natural' situation that small difference are not noticed.

If, for example, over the long-run 3 pellets a day worth of energy meet the individual fish needs (Wr 80), and 5 would give them normal body size, 7 makes them chunky and have Wr of 120, and 10 would be 140. To me its those few pellets a day in perpetuity because of any type of behavior change that would bug me. (especially if I was borderline obsessive about the other stuff in my pond or the fish genetics and was trying to grow a 3lb BG, oh wait, I am)

Bruce, we may lose this argument on an annual basis but so far I haven’t seen any photos of their pampered BG’s posted your Big Bluegill site...

http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/albums/bluegill-from-my-pond

http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenName=33v4thv78jx0l

There was a guy who crossed the street against traffic every day to get lunch. The cars always stopped to let him pass. He was sure it would continue. One day a car did not stop. It did not kill him this time just broke his ribs and arm. He quit crossing against traffic. He started loosing weight because he skipped lunch.

George, are you admitting you lost the argument? Sweet. Give me a couple more months on my fish since they've only been in the pond about 18 months. I didn't help create bigbluegill.com just for Bruce's fish! That being said, these aren't so bad:

http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/2036984:Photo:6331?context=user
http://www.bigbluegill.com/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenName=107a8smcklu4p



That's awesome. I'm really not even sure which position you supported with that!

AAron, don't push your luck - your talk and theory is cheap.
Without documemntation, "it's only a fish story".

Hey, I just thought of something funny ....
If your CNBG came from where I think they may have, you may be pampering and feeding with your pinky fingers some of my CNBG kinfolks.
If so they have the potential to be WORLD record class.

I would be so proud...

George, Should I be asking Todd for a refund?

Kidding, they're great fish. I didn't get a pedigree with them so I don't know if they're his A, B, C, or "G" stock. I did mix them with some other BG from another source, so we'll see how they do.

Since you're throwing down the gauntlet to my little insignificant young fish, can we get the documentation of your best fish? measurements, photos, age, etc? I'm not sure if you've posted it on here, but you've got to give my fish something to shoot for.

Were these your kinfolk? They went in July 07.



And one of the 20 or so "bigger ones":


Of course you've seen them 18 months later:
After X-Mas Pics - My baby bluegill

Nice looking BG Aaron... Can't wait to see what they look like with a couple more years under their belt!

LOL!

That's awesome! Eric, that's why I like you so much.

However he was risk taker that sought the treasure across the street and never gave up.
He became successful and lived to a ripe old age, whereas the timid failed ...

Aaron, like everything else around George, those CNBG should live and grow forever. If they become world records, name them GG's.

george's giants?

Aaron, I appreciate the photos of your CNBG, which I believe to be the best method of documentation.

I suggest that you research the archives for documentation of my prized CNBG and HSB. I have no interest in LMB, but have strong admiration for SMB caught in public waters.

Yes, our current adult CNBG stocked November 19, 2008, are very likely the same year as yours. If they were stocked as fingerlings in July 07 that was very likely the spawn of Overton’s best pure Florida and some of my best pure Florida CNBG brood stock from a separate gene pool.

I am not the least bit interested in records, but if I were, they would have to be listed separately under Texas “Fly Fish/Private Waters” category, since ALL of my fish are caught on fly tackle with various flies

Here’s photo documentation of adult CNBG stocked September 11, 2008, another from the same generation caught December 19, 2009, and the last one caught 01-22-09.
Photos of hand held fish don’t count as documentation.

Adult CNBG stocked 10-11-08


CNBG caught 11-19-08


CNBG caught 01-22-09


Your CNBG’s daddy is named Glazener,
How could I not love your CNBG?

Eric, can you move the portion of this thread not concerned with “Product Sources” to “Hook Shy Fish” thread?

Sunil, now would be an appropriate time to reply:


"Oh SNAP"

George - first - your old CNBG pics/fish would count in this event also - not just your current batch. Second I don't think I can move half a thread. I can copy it and put it there but it will look like I posted it.

OK, how 'bout if we just leave it where it is and put a link from "Hook Shy Fish" to “Product Sources”?
Thanks

George working on your request now.

Thanks Eric - good job, this thread is worth preserving.

Quite a coincidence that you, Aaron, and I have CNBG from the same gene pool, and even more intersting is that Aaron and I share the same year class fish.

I am looking forward to monitor CNBG growth against Aaron's "gold standard" pond, having a small RAS pond capable of controlloing water quality and environmental propeties.
All he needs now is a refrigeration system to control water temp.
I'm envious ...

We hava a "benchmark" as a starting point with Aaron's December 2008 photo camparison with my January 22, 2009 photo, even if Aaron's fish is hand held.

I'm on Aaron's team to assist any way possible for him to produce a world record class CNBG.
We can share braggin' rights...

Aaron’s CNBG 12-26-08


George’s CNBG 01-22-09

I don't mean to bring this thread back from the dead, but I found it very interesting.

I am an animal science major with a concentration in veterinary medicine at cal poly (I know, I know, who cares big deal... Just background for where I got my info), and last quarter while studying behavior and training we watched a really old video of an experiment with predatory fish.

The gist of it was that if the predatory fish was placed in an aquarium with minnow / feeder fish, it would consume them all.

If that predatory fish was placed in an aquarium with the same type of feeder fish, with glass dividers separating the predator from the prey for a short period of time, then once the glass was removed it would resume feeding as usual. Once it figured out it could eat them again, it rapidly ate the others.

If that predatory fish was placed in another aquarium with the same type of feeder fish, but the glass was separating them for a prolonged period (like 8 hours for example), then once the glass was removed the predator would actually starve to death. It wouldn't even try to eat the feeder fish anymore.

From what I have learned thus far,

I would have to agree with most all of what George and Bruce have been saying.

As long as you fish in moderation (or do most things in life in moderation and not get crazy about it), there really shouldn't be a lot to worry about.

Extremely heavy negative feedback conditioning will affect predatory behavior; however, occasional negative feedback mixed with a majority of positive feedback shouldn't pose a problem.

If you were to catch the same fish 10 times in a row on pellets, then he probably won't be eating pellets anymore, but does that really happen that often? (I really don't know, I'm a fishing noob).

I don't know enough about fish behavior or fish genetics to get all technical on anyone. I'm more of a food animal / companion animal technician... I'm just assuming that a lot of the same principles apply.

Around 95%+ (My Guestimation!) of the principles of reproductive physiology overlap in respect to fish, and mammals, so the assumption isn't without precedent. It just probably isn't very accurate.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. I'm coming to find out that things are rarely EVER black and white. They are almost ALWAYS shades of grey.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge Gflo... Interesting stuff!