Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
PondGuppy, BarbaraE, Cloudfeather, Chadsnider, Kevin Matney
18,573 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics41,078
Posts559,296
Members18,574
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,686
ewest 21,541
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,174
Who's Online Now
6 members (Sunil, Catch N 8 NTex, Shotgun01, catscratch, anthropic, Bigtrh24), 748 guests, and 393 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#149377 02/16/09 12:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
We are in the process of getting a water well and building a few small forage ponds. We don't get good clay until +-14 feet, and we don't want or need any forage ponds that deep.

We were hoping to use drilling mud to seal the shallower forage ponds (if practical). I found three threads (plus a few posts in others) discussing the use of drilling mud in ponds.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post51484

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post147322

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post80174

As usual, George, ewest, and a host of others give great advice. What I gather so far is:

1. Clean drilling mud could be used to seal a pond.

2. Drilling mud can be water based or oil based, and it might have additives.

3. Plain drilling mud is bentonite.

4. To be safe, a chemical analysis is in order before using drilling mud for ponds.

5. And this gem from Svoberts: "Most drilling mud is a mix of bentonite, water, caustic soda (low amounts) and some other things to make it slippery and increase weight. We ( I work for an oilfield service company with a mud division) researched "soil farming" which is basically spreading this stuff out and then tilling it into the soil. I would not use "used" mud, since it is often slightly contaminated and alkaline. Not bad enough for a large field, but too much for a pond. But the basic ingredient of bentonite from a drilling source MIGHT be about the same as the pond stuff. I would research heavily, though."

Obviously, using the drilling mud would be our cheapest option. Buying liners is another option. Buying bentonite is a third.

Any other thoughts or ideas?


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
 Quote:
We ( I work for an oilfield service company with a mud division) researched "soil farming" which is basically spreading this stuff out and then tilling it into the soil.


I think that would work. I'm thinking you spread the dry mud a few inches thick, till it in, then wait for rain or until the moisture is just right. When the moisture is perfect, you compact it with a sheepsfoot roller or similar. Is that correct?


Sounds like it would take a huge amount of mud though.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
I've never used drilling mud but know of others who have. It seemed to work for them but I have NO idea about contaminants. Liners are super expensive and very labor intensive.

I've tried bentonite several times and it has never worked for me. Could easily be that I've never done it right..


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Drilling mud comes dry in sacks. It is mixed in tanks or pits with water or oil to the specific needs of the drilling operation to lubricate the hole , bring up drill cuttings as it circulates and add weight to the drill pipe/column to maintain control of the operation. Additives go in once the mud is mixed. You can use it right out of the sack and pour it on the ground , spread it around and till it into the soil. Then wait for the rain.
















Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
G
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
 Originally Posted By: davatsa

We were hoping to use drilling mud to seal the shallower forage ponds (if practical).

Obviously, using the drilling mud would be our cheapest option. Buying liners is another option. Buying bentonite is a third.

Any other thoughts or ideas?

Dave, as Ewest states, drilling mud right out of the sack is bentonite and safe to use.
With the low price of oil, rig counts are down in our area and mud may be a bargain if you look around.

Warehouses were full of the stuff with the oil crash in the 80's.



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
I was really referring to the stuff that the mud trucks haul off. A couple of friends of mine got this used goopy stuff and sealed some leakers. Like I said, I have no idea about water quality after that.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
Sorry for the confusion, guys. I think Dave and I are talking about the same thing.

We can buy betonite in sacks if we must, but we were hoping to use the drilling mud on-site after the well is drilled. Am I using the wrong term?

That is why I wanted to employ the Pond Boss brain trust. There seems to be some who think using drilling mud is feasible if it is relatively clean, while others think it is not worth the risk. Any more opinions or experience on that?


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
 Originally Posted By: davatsa
There seems to be some who think using drilling mud is feasible if it is relatively clean, while others think it is not worth the risk. Any more opinions or experience on that?


Drilling mud comes in 2 forms. Dry powder, and wet (mixed with water). Both are edible, though not especially tasty. As mentioned, sometimes there are additives to improve the mud properties. These days, it is much less likely that any harmful products are added. Check with the drilling company, they will know exactly what's in it and whether it poses any threat to fish. A little NaOH is harmless, high percentages would need neutralizing with an acid before use.

In the end, using mud dry or wet would get the same result.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
I've used bagged bentonite on several occasions with no success. It is the consistency of flour and you need to wear a mask to keep it out of your lungs. When wet, it is pretty snotty stuff. You are going to sweat when using 100 pound bags and it is going to get all over you.

I don't remember the recipe for how much you use per sq. ft. but is must be tilled in. I've tried disking it in and that certainly didn't work.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
 Originally Posted By: davatsa
Sorry for the confusion, guys. I think Dave and I are talking about the same thing.

We can buy betonite in sacks if we must, but we were hoping to use the drilling mud on-site after the well is drilled. Am I using the wrong term?

That is why I wanted to employ the Pond Boss brain trust. There seems to be some who think using drilling mud is feasible if it is relatively clean, while others think it is not worth the risk. Any more opinions or experience on that?

David, if you are going to reuse the drilling mud from your own well for your forage ponds, you ought to be able to monitor and influence what all the drillers put into it so that it is safe for pond use.

I guess the exception would be if they hit something nasty underground while drilling.

Last edited by Theo Gallus; 02/17/09 08:47 AM. Reason: added proviso

"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Are they drilling a water well ? If so you could get them to mix the mud and some extra in the mud truck and pump it over the pond bottom.
















Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
G
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
I would not risk drilling mud be placed in existing or new ponds without adequate analysis, due to additive chemicals and drilling rock and fluid properties.
In one case we allowed the drilling contractor to "spray" the used mud onto a sandy loam pasture without any noticable effects.
Otherwise they haul it off for disposal.



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
Thanks, guys.

ewest, yes they are drilling a water well. Good idea--maybe they can just make extra like you suggested. We're making the forage ponds ourselves and they won't be very large.

George, if you verified the contents of the mud with the drilling contractor, would you feel comfortable spreading the mud over small, unfilled forage ponds that need a clay base? If the drilling contractor does not haul the mud offsite, is there a feasible way to test the mud and spread it ourselves?

Our forage ponds won't have good clay because we will not dig deep enough to get to the good stuff. We'd like them to remain shallow so we can cast net/seine them periodically. That's why we thought the drilling mud could help seal the ponds without having to buy liners.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
G
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
 Originally Posted By: davatsa

George, if you verified the contents of the mud with the drilling contractor, would you feel comfortable spreading the mud over small, unfilled forage ponds that need a clay base? If the drilling contractor does not haul the mud offsite, is there a feasible way to test the mud and spread it ourselves?
Dave, talk to your mud logger if still on site or nearby.
The only thing I would be concerned about would be if drilled in carbonates and acidized completion.
If frac only probabley OK.

Is the mud still in the pit?

I'm geting out of my area on mud chem - I'm an exploration guy.....



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
Thanks, George.

Actually, no drilling has taken place. We were trying to plan ahead and kill two birds with one stone (water well plus forage ponds).

We have the equipment to make the forage ponds ourselves, but again we can't go deep enough for the good clay.

If we can use the drilling mud, we would dig the forage ponds according to when the drilling contractor is on site and use the drilling mud on the freshly dug ponds.

We'll definitely talk to the guys, and I'll ask about carbonates and acidized completion. I don't know what that is yet, but I'll do some research. \:\)


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
D
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
cool topic, i'm comin in way late here, and i think the key is that you are drilling a water well which will probably have pretty strict regs about what compostion of muds are allowed....it SEEMS that water well muds should be safe, but as you've been advised, check the mud compositions w/ the drillers and/or mud suppliers, pull a nearby well log if you can to help determine what kind of rock you may be drilling into, and while they are drilling yer well, test the mud (put some fatheads in a baby pool w/ the water, rock cuttings, and mud..... see if they survive.....might have to wait on the fish til the turbidity goes down as that could kill fish too).


GSF are people too!

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256

Theo and DIED, you both make logical points that give me hope.

 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1


I don't remember the recipe for how much you use per sq. ft. but is must be tilled in. I've tried disking it in and that certainly didn't work.


Assuming for now that we can use the drilling mud, does anyone have any experience with amounts necessary to seal a given area? We'll be sure to till it instead of disking it--the ponds should be small enough that it won't be a problem.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
When I had my water wells drilled, they just started up the rotary and went down. No mud was used.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
Well that's a bummer.

Dave, I would assume even a rig used to drill a water well would have a fitting to pump something (water?) into the well through the pipe while drilling to keep the bit cool and flush the dirt out. Is mud not needed for water wells?

On the other hand, would drilling a typical water well flush out enough clay to seal a forage pond? Hopefully my question makes sense...I might just be picturing this all wrong. I don't have any drilling experience.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
My well is, I think, 10 inches and they went down 100 ft, hit a teacup full of water, and then called it quits. That was my 3rd attempt and I was tickled to get any water at all. It started out with 1/10 gpm but later improved to 1/2 gpm which I capture in a 2,500 gallon tank. Yeah, they pumped some water down in there to cool the bit and soften the soils. It certainly wouldn't have been enough to use on a pond. Also, they drilled through some rocks and some sand. Useless stuff.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Water well drilling here consists of repeatedly dropping a long, cylindrical bale with a bit on the end down the hole, then periodically adding water to make a slurry with the fractured soil/rock and lifting it out in the bale.

Our two deep wells (casings about 5", IIRC), which go down roughly 100' and 150', each produced enough material to seal a large kiddy pool, if it had all been suitable clay.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
D
davatsa Offline OP
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,256
 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus


Our two deep wells (casings about 5", IIRC), which go down roughly 100' and 150', each produced enough material to seal a large kiddy pool, if it had all been suitable clay.


I was afraid of that. Thanks, Theo.


"Only after sorrow's hand has bowed your head will life become truly real to you; then you will acquire the noble spirituality which intensifies the reality of life. I go to an all-powerful God. Beyond that I have no knowledge--no fear--only faith."
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
D
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,095
Likes: 287
Theo, in Texas they now use rotary rigs to punch down for water. What you're referring to is called spudding. I used to help my ex Father in Law do that in Arizona when he was "drilling' in granite. Some days we made all of 2 or 3 ft. When we hit softer stuff, we sometimes made 20 to 30 ft. We generally had to go about 600 ft to get water. We didn't always hit water and it was sometimes salty.

In the oil patch, when they start the drill and hit the ground it is called "spudding in". BTW, the early drillers called their machines "Fort Worth Spudders". I have no idea why.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Dave all wells are spud. It simply means starting the hole. This is so no matter what type of rig is used. The small rigs (like water well rig sized)are often used to spud the well. That may be why they were called "Fort Worth Spudders". First the cellar is dug and then a small rig (often) is used to drill the initial hole and conductor pipe is set. Then another hole is made to the side and a piece of pipe is set and it is called the rat hole. Then the big drilling rig is brought to the location.

What Theo described is called "cable-tool drilling" and has been around a long time.

Last edited by ewest; 02/18/09 05:30 PM.















Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
D
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
D
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,261
 Originally Posted By: davatsa
Well that's a bummer.

Dave, I would assume even a rig used to drill a water well would have a fitting to pump something (water?) into the well through the pipe while drilling to keep the bit cool and flush the dirt out. Is mud not needed for water wells?

On the other hand, would drilling a typical water well flush out enough clay to seal a forage pond? Hopefully my question makes sense...I might just be picturing this all wrong. I don't have any drilling experience.


what DD1 describes sounds like air rotary. this is how my water wells were drilled in my consolidated bedrock. there are several different drilling methods used for water wells including hollow stem auger, mud rotary, air rotary, air rotary casing hammer, sonic, etc, etc...

mud rotary is typically chosen for unconsolidated formations where the borehole is suspected to easily collapse once the drill string is removed, or where great depths are needed.

one can use air rotary in consolidated formations and it is much neater than mud. its based on a rotary or hammer bit with compressed air used to force cutting to the surface. there is also air rotary casing hammer (ARCH) which drives an outer steel casing simultaneously with drilling the hole...this like mud rotary is good for unconsolidated formations but typically costs more than mud.

you could drill your water well with a variety of methods, but it would be wise to spec the job and bid it out. if you are doing this just for the mud, you might find it cheaper to drill the well w/ one method and obtain the mud from a supplier (like george mentioned)...the amount of mud you would get from drilling is totally dependant on the depth and diameter of hole you ultimately drill....hard to say....what depths are the aquifers?


GSF are people too!

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
csteffen, logme13, taz1313, Tim Sanders
Recent Posts
Windmill System Suggestions
by Catch N 8 NTex - 06/12/24 08:34 PM
New Pond Build General Information
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 06:41 PM
System advice
by Bill Cody - 06/12/24 03:04 PM
Green Sunfish to Control Crappie Population?
by ewest - 06/12/24 02:47 PM
Gnat removal
by Bill Cody - 06/12/24 02:42 PM
Building a pond in Georgia
by PondGuppy - 06/12/24 01:40 PM
Trapping the Crays
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 01:25 PM
Shoreline plants now submerged. Will they die?
by jludwig - 06/12/24 12:35 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 11:18 AM
Is my pond dying?
by BarbaraE - 06/12/24 11:16 AM
alligator eating my fish food
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 11:07 AM
Turtles in my lake
by 4CornersPuddle - 06/12/24 08:19 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5