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GP
Check this website they should be able to put you in contact with Organic solutions in your area of the state.

Georgia Organics
P.O. Box 8924
Atlanta, GA 31106
404-873-3034
404-873-3135
http://www.georgiaorganics.org/


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Hey Georgia Pond:
I was thinking about plants for that site (I know you are into the grass) and just what popped into my mind were anything in the Sedum family, and Vinca Periwinkle. My mom lived in Florida for a while I recall thinking about the Vinca Periwinkle we plant here as an annual, it grew like a little bush down there. Those plants are drought tolerant, require little care, and hold in the soil to prevent erosion and take up nutrients. The adavantage to the native non-invasive plants to your area is that the root systems grow deep and hold the soil in place. It was nice to think about those flowers at my mom's, she died in 1999.


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Thanks 2catmom. I'll look into those. We do need a woman's touch on the dam. We had one of the neighbor's daughters plant pansies out in front of the gazebos as a school project. That was great. Right now my priorities are re-establishing the grass, repairing the sprinkler systems, clearing overgrowth, and generally tidying things up. I'm glad the current home owners association is agreeable to all of this.

Do you have pictures of your area?

Chuck, thanks for the organics link.

Ted, you mentioned preferring Dimension over Pendimethalin, any particular reasons?

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Pendimethalin photo degrades quickly by comparison, it has a yellow dye impregnated on it to slow the process(UV inhibitor) until it comes in contact with moisture and soil.It can also be a root pruner and moves to some degree in the soil.The Ag sector know this product as Prowl and it is very old chemistry.Dimension is very much different in that it stays put and can be applied somewhat later than Pendi as it has some degree of reachback or post control on 1-3 tiller stage crabgrass.The midwest turf market leans towards Barricade and Dimension but they cost more than Pendi.In Ohio the heat thins out our desirable turf and sets the stage for crab grass germination and then the first week of October or a 35F night will kill it all out. Different situation than yours.

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Thanks Ted.

I went by John Deere Landscapes after work. The guy there sounds like one of the guys on lawnsite.com. His first suggestion was Rounduping all the bahia and planting bermuda. I doubt that is going to happen and I don't know that we would want to.

He gave me their Pendamethalin based program for bermuda grass. He said it would be good for bahia too, but who in their right mind would want that? The schedule is pretty extensive. I was so ready to get out of there I didn't ask about Barricade or Weedar 64.

I wish you worked at our JDL Ted.

For those who suggested organics, I'm not opposed to them, I just know I have even more to learn about them than I do chemical based methods.

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I dealt with the same guy at John Deere Landscapes last year. I was looking for a way to hold down our seeding on the bank. There is at least one company that makes a mulch with a tackifier in it and JDL sells it. He wasn't much help at all. I think that unless you are buying by the pallet he doesn't want to talk to you.

I ended up finding Soiltac. It is basically Elmer's glue. Mixed 40 to 1 with water it can be sprayed over seeding and it will prevent the area from washing out in a pretty good rain. The best thing is they will sell it in modest quantities.

http://www.soiltac.com/

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How did the soiltac work? From the website, it looks like the intended applications is for areas that will not have plants.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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The Soiltac worked great. It was perfect for the project and let me sleep like a baby unless a hurricane was forecast. I just mixed it in a two gallon pump or back pack sprayer and sprayed it liberally (about 2 gallons of 40:1 mix per 9 square yards) on where we'd seeded. A 40:1 mix equals 3.2 ounces of Soiltac per gallon of water. Any sprayer will do, but be sure to rinse it well after use.

While not advertised as a tackifier it is listed in their rate table:

http://www.soiltac.com/application-rates.aspx

I forget how I stumbled upon them. I wanted an organic guar gum tackifier, but couldn't find one readily available. While not organic, Soiltac seemed to be safe and environmentally friendly.

It was very hard to find information on tackfiers and when I did their ordering system would be terrible and they would only deal in huge quantities.

Soiltac has an easy online ordering system and they will sell in 1 quart or 5 gallon "sample" quantities. They were very helpful and would promptly answer any question.

It is pretty versatile. I plan to always have some around for holding problem drainage areas in place.

I also used Greenview Grass Seed Accelerator paper mulch which also seemed to help hold the seeding in place. I threw the mulch on at least an hour after spraying the area with Soiltac because I didn't want the mulch soaking it all up.

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Georgia Pond:
I have installed a vegetative buffer zone on my frontage. I am amazed at what grows in the sand and gets full sun. Ground cover Ajuga loves it!!! My frontage will be one huge mass of purple flowers this spring, and every spring after. I have some cool stuff growing, like all kinds of daylillies, iris, some plants that I don't know the names of, even hosta growing where the springs are, lots of coneflowers, and in the water I have Pickeral Weed, some zebra rushes, it has turned into a gardening experiment that I never expected. Very cool, people here have tried to keep sandy beaches they have to weed and reclaim the sand over and over and over. The plants retain the sand, and prevent erosion, attract wildlife like butterflies, birds, (those pesky muskrats) and the rocks make a nice home for frogs, I had two kinds last year, green and brown. Nobody has seen a frog around here in decades.
I don't know how to do photos yet on the computer. Every 6 months I pay a service to come out and clean up the computer, install stuff, next time out I will have them teach me how to post photos on PBF.


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2catmom, your description sounds wonderful.

I wish I could help you with the pictures. Do you have any digital pictures you could email me? I'd be happy to post them.

When I visit my folks in California I help my Mom with her computer. She has had one for years, but she still gets very frustrated with finding files and editing photos.

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Georgia:
Now if we can get the water to look good! I'll take photos this spring (it should be more mature this year) hopefully I can post them. I took the photos off the camera card and have 2 c.d.s with the photos on it. A customer today (a big time computer whiz) said he would come over soon and show me how to do it, that it was easy. Sweet of you to ask and offer. If you tire of the grass thing any local nursery could help you pick native non-invasive plants to your area. I forgot to mention all the dragonflies, they are cool too.


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I just had soil tests ran on the two dams and both are low in phosphorus. The fertilizer recommendations in pounds per acre are 75-175 Nitrogen (N), 80 Phosphate (P), and 40 Potash (K).

It looks like I will need a starter fertilizer to get those NPK ratios. Reading the Lawnsite forum it sounds like phosphorus shouldn't runnoff. Can I fertilize up to the water's edge safely, or should I stay back some and how far? The soil is clay.

I was told last year we added phosphorus to the lakes because they had too much nitrogen.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

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GP / Do you have a CEC and or an Organic matter reading,PH would help too. You state the recommendation is per acre, was that for turf as often results are given for AFS (acre furrow slice) which is 9.66 inches of depth (field crops) and turf is approx 40-50% of that depth.Lastly what depths did you pull the core samples ??

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 Originally Posted By: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN
GP / Do you have a CEC and or an Organic matter reading,PH would help too. You state the recommendation is per acre, was that for turf as often results are given for AFS (acre furrow slice) which is 9.66 inches of depth (field crops) and turf is approx 40-50% of that depth.Lastly what depths did you pull the core samples ??


Hi Ted!

I don't think I had the CEC or Organic matter reading. The results I got back were for phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, zinc, manganese and pH. The pH for one dam was 5.7 and the other 4.7. Phosphorus showed to be low. Magnesium was in the high range. Everything else was in the medium range.

I took samples to 4 inches per the Cooperative Extension office instructions. They catagorized the bahia grass as pasture.

Did I do wrong? Speak to me as you would a child

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Your N recommendation would be for the entire season. For stand establishment figure .5 lb per 1000 sq ft or 22 lb per acre basis.A standard blend which you should be able to find already bagged would be 8-32-16 and apply 250 lbs per acre which would calculate to 20-80-40 NPK. Phosphorus for the most part is immobile depending on the CEC (cation exchange capacity) since you state you have clay soils it should stay put. If you can do any kind of incorporation of this fert it will have a chance to move less.The 4.7 sample may be a little low but I defer to your local experts on desired PH for your grass.Consider asking your extension about feeding one lb of N with 2-3% iron per 1000 sq ft after stand establishment 2-3 times per growing season. All N applications should be 50% slow release IMHO.You probably have a low organic matter to call for those N levels. Normally a simple formula for soil N is 10-15 lbs N available per % organic matter.(3% OM could be worth 30-45 lbsN)An agonomist would cringe at that statement as many other factors play in but still result the same approx.

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Are the phosphorus and potassium recommendations for the entire season too? They don't seem to have been recommended differently from the N recommendation. I expected to use a fertilizer with a 2(or more):2:1 NPK ratio.

The recommended pH is 6.0 to 6.5. For the 5.7 pH dam the recommendation was .5 tons/Acre of lime (I calculated this as 23 pounds per 1000 square feet) to bring it to 6.0. For the 4.7 pH dam the recommendation was 2.75 tons per Acre to bring it to 6.0, which I calculated to be 126 pounds per 1000 square feet.

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The P&K would be for the entire season.That much lime will need to be incorporated. If you just surface apply it you will maintain a 10 plus PH for quite awhile on the surface and in the top 1-2 inches.(not good)There are many adverse effects to high PH on the surface. Calcium &Mag which is basically what you are getting in lime is immobile also. Think of phosphorus and lime as needing to be mechanically placed where you want it as it clings (anionic/cationic effect)to soil particles.Water just does not carry it well throughout the soil profile.Phosphorus is the main component needed to aid germination, too much N&K (potassium) can salt out or harm germination. an 8-32-16 mix would work for your situation@ 5-6 lbs per 1000 sq ft to establish a stand.

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Ted, do you have any advice on getting the 8-32-16 fertilizer? Lesco's website doesn't appear to have it. Lesco is about all I have for professional fertilizer in Columbus, Georgia.

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GP if it helps we have water soulble 10-52-4 (little less K)we come through Columbus for one clients pond. Of course Foxworthy is not too far north of you and taking him about 60 bags for his new lake this year. You are welcome to meet us on I-185 if you like.


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I would thnk any local Co-op or Ag supply would have it as it is a standard starter fertilizer in most areas.

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Thanks for the offer Greg. How well does pond fertilizer work for lawns? Is it slow release?

I'm still trying to find a co-op or ag supply. Readily available high phosphorus fertilizers would be Pennington 18-24-6 and probably Lesco 18-24-12 50%PPSCU.

I'm looking into mixing my own using 34-0-0 ammonium nitrate, 0-46-0 triple superphosphate, and 0-0-60 muriate of potash to get something comparable to the 8-32-16. Then again, the ammonium nitrate probably wouldn't be slow release.

Ted, how long should I use the low nitrogen fertilizer for establishment?

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Since I get ay my cost I have used it at my house when needing high phos. and appears it worked fine but no real scientific approach. It is not slow release in fact disappears quickly in pond water so being a water soluble is not slow release. Good luck!


Greg Grimes
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