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Brettski #143992 01/09/09 09:40 AM
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Certainly a small percentage increase in fasteners would equate to differences in holding strength between same thicknesses of OSB and plywood.

One big advantage of using plywood is that if your going to take a while building at structure, plywood can be sprayed with a sealer and hold up for a long time with little damage from water. You can spray OSB but it won't do any good and will still buckle at the seams from swelling. This is especially important on floor sheathing as it is often exposed the longest and an irregular floor surface will cause more trouble in the long run than on the walls and roof. IME it's worth the extra cost for plywood on the floor but not on the roof and walls.

The biggest problem I see is that people skimp on fasteners. My Carpentry teacher said 32 nails per sheet. 9 nails on the ends and 7 nails in the field relative to roof sheathing over 2'o/c trusses with sheathing laid perpendicular to truss direction. I've always used vinyl/cement coated 8d nails too. Of course we don't get hurricanes in the midwest.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
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Have you seen and/or used the plywood sheathing product that is pre-sealed and repels moisture for short term exposure to rain?

Brettski #144001 01/09/09 10:32 AM
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I think I saw that product in wall/roof sheathing but not in T&G subfloor. Sounds like a great idea but it's pretty easy to fill a pump sprayer full of Thompson's and give it a new floor a quick spray down. Very cheap insurance that you won't have to deal with buckled seams.




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The advantage to the pre-sealed product is the waterproofing is focused on the edges. The T & G edges are completely sealed.
Spraying an installed deck would not completely protect the most vulnerable T&G area when water seeps down between the sheet seams.

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I came across this product when thinking about finishing my basement. http://www.deltafl.com/ Might come in handy for flooring over the slab in downstairs of your structure. Very reasonably priced compared to other products designed to accomplish the same thing.




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Menards sells it right in the store, in rolls that look to be about 5 or 6 feet wide. Never used it. Click Menards Winter Sale; go to page 18 (item: Platon)

Last edited by Brettski; 01/09/09 11:32 AM. Reason: add Menards link
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 Originally Posted By: Paraphrased quote from eddie_walker
It has been a dream of mine to have a few acres and live out in the country.... I've learned that it's nothing like I thought it would be.


Very interesting observation Eddie. I grew up in the city and now live at the beach. Tiring of the hustle and bustle of city life we purchased our pond property. I had no idea what we were in for. I'm not complaining I love the out-of-doors work compared to my seat-bound bean counting duties. We stayed on our property a lot in 2008 and in 2006. Actually spending time on the land really changes your ideas about what is important and what is not.

 Originally Posted By: Paraphrased quote from eddie_walker
Living out here, I spend all day outdoors working on the land.... When the day comes to an end, I'm not interested in the view or what's happening outside. I wonder how ofter you'll actually sit and enjoy that view, or relax on the deck?


So very true. Our home in Southern California has quite a nice view. The first year or two that we bought our place we spend a lot of time on the balcony enjoying the view. After a while however it just sort or wears off. In a view home you just don't spend that much time sitting there enjoying the view. On our pond property I insisted on placing our trailers in a dumb location just because it had a view of the pond. My dad tried to warn me that the ground was too steep and that although we would have a pond view, getting in and out of the trailers would be a pain and that the surrounding ground was not flat which would make sitting in chairs outside and just plain walking around outside more difficult. I was stupid and didn't listen to dad's wise council. I'm moving the trailers a flat ground non view area in 2009. As you mentioned after spending all day working on the property I don't sit and stare out the window at the pond.

 Originally Posted By: eddie_walker
Instead, how much fun will it be carrying load after load of firewood up the stairs. How many loads will you burn in and evening? How many loads during a day in the middle of winter?


Stairs are no fun. We have to go up two flights of stairs in our Southern California home. Everything has to go up stairs (groceries, laundry, Pond Boss magazine, everything). Stairs get old in a REAL hurry. Especially if you have any back or knee problems (or as I did in 2005, break a leg - try going up and down stairs with a full leg cast that won't let you bend your knee).

Everything I'm building now is one-story period. Like Bski, I'm 50 but both myself and JWHAP have had knee problems and so we are going to build are next home with an eye to the future.

I realize Bski that this structure isn't going to be your main home but I do think that you are getting some interesting input.


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a little thought i had for you bski.....

will you use the sweetspot for a small cabin you cannot logically add on to? do you plan to retire there? consider a design that could ultimately become yer final resting home.

i know if i was searching for property for use as a full time residence or retirement pad, it would hurt the value IMO to find a beautiful acreage, beautiful pond, and the building sweetspot wasted on a small cabin.

forgive me if you have addressed this concept already...


GSF are people too!

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Sweetspot planned for 2 major structures and plenty of room for accessories. Structure #1, smaller of the 2 (the one being planned right now) is noted on this map of the building site. Pond follows the south border.

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I really like the A-frame look, but don't want a true A-frame product. That is why I am leaning to the steeper, pitched gable rooflines. None of this is etched into stone, but if somebody asked me to give them an example of the 2-building package I'm thinkin' about, I would present these 2 guys settin' on the pad, slightly cocked inward toward each other...
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-

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...lookin' out over


Brettski #144040 01/09/09 02:30 PM
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Brettski, Platon panels are a lot more expensive than the product I posted...like 4X as much.

As far as comparing country living to city living...I've lived almost my entire life in the country but lived in the city for a year. I'll take an hour on the lawnmower, behind a chainsaw or weedeating over an hour stuck in traffic any day.




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Another thought that entered my brain after reading everyone's comments. With what you will be spending on this "cabin" and the fact that you are 50 years old with a goal of building your dream home in ten years or so, why not build the dream home now?

You don't need to finish the dream home, or even build all of it, but why spend the money on a slab and everything else for a building that you don't even want to live in for the rest of your life?

Have you drawn the plan of your dream home? How big is is?

Lets say that you either build it all and make it weather tite, but only finish off a small part of it. One bathroom, one bedroom , the kitchen and a living space. The rest would be just exposed walls that you could get to at any time.

The other option is to just build part of it and then add on to it when you are ready. Metal roofs would be real easy to extend. The same would be true with the slab and walls.

I forgot about getting old and stairs. A client that I did a house for last year has MS and expects to be in a wheelchair one day. I made her halls 4 feet wide and opened up her bathroom with a shower that she can roll into. My Dad just had one of his knees replaced. He's been stuck downstairs for a month now. When he gets the other one done, he'll be unable to climb the stairs again.

What was the plan for this building when you build the one you really want? Convert part of it into a bigger shop? What about the upstairs area? Is that just going to be dead space? Will guests use it? Do you have guests or people that come stay with you that won't stay in the house that you are living in?

If you build this building, or one like it, will you really build the house of your dreams when you are in your 60's?

Eddie


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Eddie,
My retirement home package would probably have the 2 structures noted. Maybe a machine shed, too, for ag equipment. 10 - 15 years (or more...?) is a loooong time and alot changes. My needs and desires will also change. No hurry; patience pays dividends.
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You should know that my principal residence is currently my dream home...and it comes with a mortgage. That's why we move along at calculated, incremental steps on our second property.
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Wouldn't it be absolutely awesome to be able to invite friends to stay with us at our project and hand them the keys to their own place on the pond? Donna has SCADS of nieces and nephews, and they keep crankin' out the next generation. Know what I mean?
As we discussed, everyone's life program is unique. This master plan fits ours pretty good.
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(edit)
 Quote:
If you build this building, or one like it, will you really build the house of your dreams when you are in your 60's?

The current project will likely be the last one this size. If/when we are able to retire, and assuming that we still own this second property, we would cash out our principal residence and have our retirement home built by others.

Last edited by Brettski; 01/09/09 08:34 PM. Reason: too pooped to hammer
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 Originally Posted By: Midwest Dave
Woodstoves: We've heated our cabin with a woodstove for the past 3 years. Couple of points to consider - every bend in the pipe cuts the draft by a percentage. Straight up is best. Also, heat rises. We have 1152 square feet that we heat well with a cheap vogelzang boxwood stove. Its the bigger one, BX42 I believe. I placed it downstairs right next to the door to aide in feeding the thing. The wood stays outside with the bugs where it belongs and I just open the door, haul in a small load and put it right into the stove. The upstairs stays toasty - sometimes too warm because the stove doesn't seal real tight. If the stove was upstairs, the downstairs would be chilly and the upstairs would broil. But I caution you, hauling load after load of wood up the stairs is going to get old fast.

...I want to come back to this woodstove thing again
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We've already wrestled a few rounds with my original floorplan. Let's just say that the basic layout is going to stay, allowing for tweaks.
Midwest Dave has some good thought in his post. It's the "forest for the trees" kinda stuff that I seek. Here's my thoughts and questions:

  • I don't have my heart set on the ability to see the fire burning as ambiance. The woodstove's primary function is to heat.
  • Knowing this, and considering the simple and practical points that Mid-Dave makes about heat and stove logistics within a 2-story structure, I have to reconsider our stove location and think of it more as a furnace
  • I'm displaying the 2 floor plans again below to help visualize.
  • Is there any way that a woodstove could be installed in a 2-story structure with this floorplan, and still provide heat to all the rooms (excepting the garage stalls)
  • ...or....at least one bedroom and the entire upstairs
  • Finally, and I want you to assume that this becomes reality to help simplify the woodstove heating system, we will not have utility power (only solar) and the wood stove can only function passively. No blowers.

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First Floor (grade level)

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Second Floor (attic space converted to living space)


Brettski #144163 01/10/09 09:36 AM
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Bski, can you find a way to stick the woodburner in that outside downstairs hallway (maybe widen a small part of it somehow to allow walking past the stove?) ? Chimney could go immediately outside (ala JHAP) or straight up through the roof-only part of the 2nd floor. It would simplify wood delivery - from either outside or the garage, no need to climb stairs - and allow you to heat both floors as needed. Add a door at the bottom of the stairs to close if you don't need/can't afford the heat going upstairs, close bedroom doors to let more of it go upstairs? Heck, you could even close both the bedroom and stairway doors and open the door to the garage and heat it, if you ever wanted to.

You get a really neat double airflow on stairs in that situation; cold air coming down underneath warm air going up. (Add a humidifier downstairs to make it warm, moist air going up, and you can have a thunderstorm at about the 5th or 6th step. ;\) )

One big downside is not having a relaxing place to watch the fire from, but you just (largely) nixed the importance of that.


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Search Hydronic woodstove.
Hydronic woodstoves

Last edited by tejasrojas; 01/10/09 10:30 AM. Reason: provided link
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Brettski, here's a pic of our place south of you. We built if for very similar reasons. I wanted a comfortable place to hang out, store my Kubota and maintenance gear, host friends and family and eventually use as a shop after we build our home. Its 24x24 with an upstairs. I'll post more pics in another thread when I get time of how we built it. It has the woodstove right inside the front door vented straight up, and the stairs go up and turn making a greatroom type effect that allows warm air upstairs.




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M Dave,
Definitely post more pics.
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tejasrojas,
Foist off, allow me to welcome you to the forum! Secondly, thanks for kickin' in with input.
There was a post (or more?) earlier in this thread about hydronic woodstoves. I kinda blew by it. I see now that I should have taken a moment to visit the concept and application.
Is it possible that my project could be heated by a woodstove with a hydronic attachment? I'm seeing the woodstove back upstairs, as in the original layout, and then run hydronic tubing downstairs and into the concrete slab of the bedrooms. Could this be done? Could the circulation be accomplished with a low amperage pump (thinking battery storage of a solar energy system). Maybe a couple valves on thermostats?

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 Originally Posted By: quote from article
A major advantage of using a hydronic heating system for rural and off-grid homes, regardless of fuel type, is the low electrical usage required to operate them. Other than a few small zone valves, the only real electricity required is to operate a small circulating pump, which for most systems uses less energy than a 75-watt light bulb. This means a small pocket-sized inverter now available to power small AC entertainment or computer devices in your car and connected to an RV/marine deep-cycle battery would be able to power your entire home heating system during a power outage.


Seems like it definately would be possible to have this type of system powered via solar provided the PV system was designed property (with consideration toward inverter inefficiency and hours of available sunlight during the winter months in your particular area).

 Originally Posted By: quote from article
A typical ducted heating system and a -HP central air-handling unit would require the continuous operation of a medium-sized generator to keep this type of heating system operational during a power outage.


Looks like a ducted system with an air-handling is gonna require a generator.

I have a feeling that cost could be a significant issue here.


JHAP
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A hot water heating system with a boiler doesn't require any pump to work if the boiler is on the lowest level of the dwelling - the heated water will gravity circulate. Although a pump helps out on the heat transfer rate.

From the sound of it, a hydronic wood stove might work the same way.


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CALLING VICTOR!!! (or anybody else with the knowledge, background, or practical experience)
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Tell me about this hydronic stove stuff. I've read the -101 course and have the basics down. Tell me what you know and how it performs. Victor; you mentioned that your primary heat source is an outdoor hydronic furnace. Gimme some specs; some pics; some details of what it's all about.
...please?

Brettski #147695 02/03/09 10:49 PM
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OK, the wheels are still turnin'....
I'm still not comfotable with the roof design for this thing. I mean, I do like the A-frame'ish kinda look with a nice steep 12/12 roof pitch on a gable roof structure, but it creates a bunch of issues.

Things like difficulty in installation because you can't just walk on it. I would have to use roof windows to get decent light and ventilation in the center areas of the structure. There are number of other little things that have been buggin' me. So, I keep going thru it in my head.
I like the size of the footprint at 28' wide. Rockytopper made me think about widening the footprint out to 30-some odd feet and then go to an 8/12 pitch. That still didn't work for the upstairs living space in a way that I liked. Then it hit me...and made me laugh. Eddie Walker has been very active in his critique, and the answer lies in the design that he used for his home. A monitor style roof! I found this pic online to present the basic idea.

I don't know if I have enough control over my design program to create a sample of this new design...or if I have the patience to learn it. This may wind up a pencil-paper job. Whatever.
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Here are the advantages I see for this design.
I can use 7' walls on the second story with pre-fab scissor trusses that are 6/12 at the roof and 3/12 at the interior. It would provide a 9' hi interior peak on a 3/12 vaulted ceiling. It will provide more height and width at the sliding door wall at the deck. I can extend the upper roof section out and over the deck and support it with timbers. If I use a wood stove, I have alot less elevation for the stack to get above the peak. In fact, I might use 2 sliding door units that are separated enough to put the wood stove between them and run the stack right up to the peak (thoughts on that look?). The real biggie is using 6/12 pitches on all the roof lines. I can walk those no problem. It will provide alot of area for windows over the length, altho the windows will have to be short....maybe sliders...? I can extend the roof overhangs out to 24" to control the sun and allow leaving the sliding windows open during rainstorms. By rough calculations, the peak of the roof will be about 3' shorter than the original 12/12 gable roof. Hmmmm....what else?
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Any thoughts, pro or con? Hopefully Eddie will check in and share some thoughts from his similarly designed homestead roofline.

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I like it.

It overcomes some of the challenges your previous design presented, and give you the option of having a nice sized workshop. It will also increase the value of your land!!!

Here's a link to a guy who's been building one that's simply a piece of art. Definately a worthwile read.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/110718-want-see-yet-another-pole-8.html

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

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Hey Eddie,
Didn't you use this design for your home when you built it? I recall seeing a pic of Steph up on the roof during construction...? Any pics?

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I like it too. I think it will blend nicely with your existing dock structure. Only issue I see is if you limit the base to 28 ft wide the top floor can't get much over about 16 ft wide or you will lose the look of this architecture. I would also note that in the pole structure that Eddie posted it is structured in a way that I too would have used OSB decking instead of plywood because the rafters are used more like purlins. This allows you to screw directly into them to hold the sheet iron on.



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Yeah, I was kinda giddy when that design popped into my wee brain. The more I thought about it, the more it made sense.
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OK, on to the structural engineering.
Rocky T nailed it about the second floor. I am going to maintain the 28' wide footprint and use 16' of it for the second floor. Keep that in mind....
The first floor is a 28' x 42' footprint (I might stretch it to 28' x 44', but that won't change the basic structural engineering).
The plan is to frame out the first floor with 2 x 6 exterior walls around the 28' x 42' perimeter. I want to use engineered I-joists or trusses on top of the walls to span the entire 28' distance without intermediate supports. I REALLY DON'T WANT any poles or beams if I can avoid it. Based on the spec's of manufacturers for these products, I am going to be using a 16" tall truss @ 16" O/C. I'm all good with that. The load bearing issues come with the bearing walls on the 2nd floor. They will support the top section of the roof and the walls that support that roof will bear down to the same clear-span trusses at a point 6 feet out from the 1st floor load bearing walls.
In Eddie's pal's pole frame, that top roof bears directly down to the grade with posts. As I mentioned, I don't want posts at the first level if at all possible. I have an email into a truss manufacturer for their "engineering opinion" on the application as I want to do it. I'm kinda expecting them to either recommend an even bigger truss, or use the same 16" truss at 12" O/C. We will see.

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