I found out yesterday that grass shrimp are in several local public lakes and that I would be free to net a good supply out. I'm already scanning the net for a good, fine mesh, sturdy dip net.
I netted my shrimp out of an 8 acre pond. There were a bunch of trees and brush around the banks, making dip netting very difficult. After 3 hours of netting, we ended up with around 200 shrimp and some badly snagged nets. I hope you have better luck!
Go to your local stores fabric department. They sell mesh by the yard. It is the stuff they make wedding veils out of. Line a standard dipnet with it and secure it to the hoop edge with zip ties.
I found a standard dip net mesh worked perfectly. The shrimp were mostly 1"-1.5" long, so they can't fall through. A finer net would have caught tiny little shrimp, which would be too tedious since I would have to pick them out 1 at a time. Since the shrimp's bodies are very clear, it's hard enough to find even the 1.5" ones!
The shrimp in that picture look very similar to the ones I find in rivers around where I live. I'll have to research more and find out whether that species is the same and if so, can it survive in ponds. Thanks for the info guys!
OK, I did a little digging and here is what I found...
The grass, glass, or ghost shrimp, whichever you prefer to call them are in the Genus Palaemonetes. There are several species native to North America. All reach a maximum size of about 1.5" with females being larger than males.
P. Pugio- Daggerblade Grass Shrimp P. Valgaris- Marsh Grass Shrimp P. intermedius- Brackish Grass Shrimp P. paludosus- Eastern Grass Shrimp P. kadiakensis- Mississippi Grass Shrimp P. texanus- Texas Grass Shrimp There are also a few cave dwelling species of very limited range.
The ones I have personal experience with are mostly P. pugio and P. vulgaris. They are both found in brackish waters along the east coast. P. pugio can survive in low salinity levels but cannot reproduce in them. P. valgaris can only survive in salinities as low as 5 ppt. P. intermedius is also found along the east coast in brackish waters. It is also only capable of reproducing in brackish waters. This makes these 3 species unsuited for a pond.
So, that leaves P. kadiakensis which is already mentioned above with the fine photograph by bobad. The other species of value to pond owners would be P. paludosus and P. texanus.
P. texanus has a very limited range and is very uncommon. P. paludosus is very cold water sensitive not being able to survive in water temperatures under 50 degrees. It is the species that is found throughout Florida and if you have ever seined in any lake in Florida or fished with grass shrimp for RES in Florida, you’ve definitely come across them. So unless you live in the far south, that only leaves P. kadiakensis as an option.
P. kadiakensis is native to the Mississippi River drainages. They live about 1 year and usually only have 1 brood per year, but apparently some populations may have 2 broods. The length of the breeding season is dependent on latitude and is longer in southern populations. In Illinois and Michigan ovigerous females are present April-August. In Louisiana they are present February-October. The number of eggs produced ranges between 8 and 160. The fecundity is a function of length of the female incubation period (temperature dependent) and varies from 2 to 3 weeks. They have six stages of free living larvae that usually mature when they reach a length of 20 mm. Adults usually die after reproducing, but females in some populations may produce a second brood. The adults usually disappear in populations in late summer or early fall after death.
P. kadiakensis appears to be tolerant of turbidity and may actually prefer it as an escape mechanism from predatory fish which feed mostly by sight. They also seem to prefer aquatic vegetation as well.
Anyways, hopefully this didn’t completely bore you all to death, but I found it pretty interesting. I have no experience with P. kadiakensis, but I know the species I have dealt with are readily gobbled down by just anything that can swallow them. So I am sure they would help build a healthy food chain in any pond.
Good info. Thanks for the research. I put a couple hundred in a pond this winter, but I don't know what species. I bought them from an aquarium dealer, so guess will see if any are left next spring. Assuming there is any water left for them to swim in
I want to add some to my new pond. I would dip net them, but because I have never been to a body of water that I saw a population of grass shrimp, I turned to the internet. Many sites offer them but they are all P. Pugio, and P. Valgaris, or do not specify what type you will get. So does anyone know of a website that offers P. kadiakensis like bobad posted? Or grass shrimp that will reproduce in a pond, and cold resistant.
I think your writeup is an excellent guide for those interested in stocking shrimp. You answered all the pertinent questions about the various species.
The only questions left are, what is their impact on the food chain?
I have gained a cursory knowledge of them over the years, and I'm still learning. At this point I have many more questions than answers.
They ask ""what is their impact on the food chain""? Grass shrimp are detritivores which means they eat primarily detritus (organic matter formed by the decomposition of plants). Thus they are very good at processing dead plant matter and moving food energy up the food chain while themselves also serving as food items. Crayfish and grass shrimp will also eat some waste fish food that is lying on plants or the bottom.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/25/0908:34 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Yeah, I don't think grass shrimp are gonna hurt a pond's food chain. They are detrivores as Bill said. I have kept them in tanks with the smallest of fish and have never seen them attack them. They are rather skittish, I would be too if I was that low on the food chain! They are not zooplankton feeders like many of the fish species that we place in our ponds for food chain building. This means there is no competition with BG, RES or young LMB for the limited supply of zooplankton. The larvae of grass shrimp do feed on very small zooplankton, but they themselves are larger zooplankton, so they probably benefit the pond by converting the very small zooplankton into larger zooplankton that BG, LMB etc would be more apt to feed on.
I got some ghost shrimp from the local wal-mart. I put them in an aquarium to see how they live. It has been about 2weeks and out of the 10 I got only 2 are still alive. I wonder if they have just been handled poorly between the wal-mart supplier to wal-mart to my tank? I think it is most likely that they are the species that need brackish/salt water to live and reproduce. Because wal-mart sells them as feeders, they dont need them to live long. Sigh...the quest for a ghost shrimp source continues.
jakeb, in all likelihood the species you got from Wal-Mart was P. paludosus. They are the most common species raised for use as feeders. They are a solely freshwater shrimp but cannot tolerate cold temperatures as they are native to the deep south only.
I found this site... http://www.fishhobbysupply.com/invertebrates.php Scroll to the bottom and they list grass shrimp and the supplier claims they are P. kadiakensis. They are 12 for $10.00. I have not bought from him, but if I cannot find another source I may. Hard to tell if they really are P. kadiakensis. Even harder to tell if like your Wal-Mart shrimp they are handled roughly and will mostly die. If you do buy some, let me know how they turn out...
Last edited by CJBS2003; 03/04/0912:08 AM. Reason: added more info
Man I really need to get into the shrimpin' business. I lived in Monroe,(north)Louisiana on a shallow lake for 18 years while I was growing up and I used to dipnet these little grass shrimp out to bream-fish with. I also hatched out some hooded merganser's one summer that were very finicky eaters, but loved the grass shrimp that I netted and dropped in their kiddy-pool. The shrimp congregate right next to the bank, where the moss(esp. coontail moss) and weeds grow, in no more than 1-2 ft of water. From about May-Sept you could just net a big scoop of moss and dump it out on the bank and pick up probably 7-8 of these grass shrimp w/ each netfull of moss. So if this feller sells them for $10.00 per 12 shrimp, I was netting bout $6.00 each time. (Now at 24,I am thinking I shouldn't have gone to college w/this lucrative grass shrimp market developing.) This lake was 12-15 acres w/ an average depth of 3-4ft, while the deepest part being 5-6ft. I am not sure what species they are, but I assume P. kadiakensis since they reproduced yearly. Also, my parents moved about 20 miles from old house and my father built a 12-acre pond (avg.depth 6ft,deepest 15ft) and stocked it 10 years ago. So before they moved I netted 400-500 grass shrimp out of my old lake and carried them in an ice-chest full of water to our new pond. Now thats been about 5 years ago since I added the shrimp to new pond and during warm months all of the bass I catch are gorged with grass shrimp, so introducing them to our pond worked for us. I was suprised when I read this forum about how many people have never heard of grass shrimp thriving and reproducing in ponds/lakes when they were so common my area. Anyways I hope this post helped to get the ideas rolling. I would definitly recommend looking into this method of obtaining grass shrimp rather than the walmart route. Seems to me that if you caught them in a pond, you know they can survive in a pond. By the way, I dont think I lost many, if any, during the transport. Granted it was only 25 miles away, but it was hot, I had no aerator and didn't really have to rush them there. They are pretty hardy in my opinion. I just dumped them into shallow water upon arrival, no acclimation of water or anything special, and it worked for me. If you live close to North La, just go net you some out. Surely they have to be more widespread than North Louisiana though.
So if this feller sells them for $10.00 per 12 shrimp, I was netting bout $6.00 each time. (Now at 24,I am thinking I shouldn't have gone to college w/this lucrative grass shrimp market developing.)
I guess that makes me a millionaire. I get 6-12 shrimp per scoop. I've got over 20 per scoop several times. I netted around 175 of them in a friend's lake, and stocked them less than 2 years ago. They appear to be a better investment than alpacas, ostriches, and chinchillas.
@Jakeb: Click my sig to see a pic of P. kadiakensis and compare to yours. They're very hardy, so I'm betting yours is a brackish water variety. You can always add a little salt to your aquarium.
bobad, you sure yours are P. kadiakensis and not P. paludosus? Louisiana is a warmer climate so P. paludosus would do well there...
If they are P. kadiakensis I'm gonna beg you to scoop up some and ship em to me so I can experiment with them... I have a barren pond I am going to turn into a forage pond this year and would like to start by stocking it with some P. kadiakensis. I'd like to do this before they spawn so I can get a good year class hatch...
I have seen in person P. Pugio, P. Valgaris, P. intermedius and P. paludosus and can't tell the difference! About the only way I can tell them apart is by where I catch them... They just vary by their habitat preference. Just isn't much literature out there on grass shrimp, particularly P. kadiakensis.
I did a little research, the best way I can find to tell the two species apart other than geographic range is the P. paludosus has a red band on its front claws were as P. kadiakensis appears not to but this isn't always 100%...
jakeb, in all likelihood the species you got from Wal-Mart was P. paludosus. They are the most common species raised for use as feeders. They are a solely freshwater shrimp but cannot tolerate cold temperatures as they are native to the deep south only.
I found this site... http://www.fishhobbysupply.com/invertebrates.php Scroll to the bottom and they list grass shrimp and the supplier claims they are P. kadiakensis. They are 12 for $10.00. I have not bought from him, but if I cannot find another source I may. Hard to tell if they really are P. kadiakensis. Even harder to tell if like your Wal-Mart shrimp they are handled roughly and will mostly die. If you do buy some, let me know how they turn out...
Jakeb turned me onto a hatchery that will ship these - $400-$500/1000 shrimp. Is willing to split orders and ship to different locations for $59 [I think]. We're getting guys together to go in on some orders. If anyone is interested feel free to contact me - I'm planning on getting a shipment [or two] in the next couple/three weeks.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
and I have added scuds the last 2 years from this guy at habitatnow, the gallon is literally 10s of thousands of scuds.. you can only get in Jan/Feb, but the fish love these guys and in your temperature they'd do fine if you have habitat..
The species from that link are the P. paludosus species. They may actually take hold in your pond Aaron with you have a warmer climate. I suspect the scuds would possibly take hold in northern climates. Bill Cody has said he's tried to get two different species of them to take hold in his pond without luck. I am sure the fish will suck them down like candy when they are initially stocked though...
CJBS, Yeah the scuds (anything that size) are a snack in my overstocked pond. Last year I did 4 gallons. It was a lot of scuds, but the BG devour them. But I think it's a nice supplement of different nutrition. I can't get any of these 'established' because I've got so many fish stocked in a tiny space (right now.)
There are different reasons for stocking forage... In your case you know going in that they will be eaten fast. Even with your over stocked pond, I bet the mighty gambusia would take hold!
Aaron, I think you just like keeping you fish on an all-organic diet! You ever build a few acre size pond and I have no doubt it will become the premier site for a BASS masters tournement and 50 people will top 100lbs of fish! Dude, you have GOT the wet thumb!
CJBS, Yeah the scuds (anything that size) are a snack in my overstocked pond. Last year I did 4 gallons. It was a lot of scuds, but the BG devour them. But I think it's a nice supplement of different nutrition. I can't get any of these 'established' because I've got so many fish stocked in a tiny space (right now.)
Aaron...can you tell us more about scuds? I don't think they've been discussed nearly as much as PK, GSH, FHM, GB....any pics?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
CJBS, Yeah the scuds (anything that size) are a snack in my overstocked pond. Last year I did 4 gallons. It was a lot of scuds, but the BG devour them. But I think it's a nice supplement of different nutrition. I can't get any of these 'established' because I've got so many fish stocked in a tiny space (right now.)
Aaron...can you tell us more about scuds? I don't think they've been discussed nearly as much as PK, GSH, FHM, GB....any pics?
Did a search - reading now...interesting stuff.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
TJ, Bill Cody from what I understand has attempted to establish the two common species found in ponds without luck. As I understand, one is smaller than the other and may be easier to establish than the other. They also require hard waters as well. Perhaps Bill can share more of his experience when he reads this post...
I've never had any reproduction from the scuds dispite there being vegetation in the ponds. I'm not sure what the problem has been. For G.lacustris (the large ones) it is the water temperatures get too warm for them in my Ohio area. They are a cool water species similar to trout water cool and they seem to do well in weeds called coontail.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 12/23/1403:22 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
If you have luck TJ, let us know... I know scuds do like cold water, as in trout temperature cold. Scuds are a very large part of smaller lake trout and browns and rainbows in lakes and reservoirs.
I did a little research, the best way I can find to tell the two species apart other than geographic range is the P. paludosus has a red band on its front claws were as P. kadiakensis appears not to but this isn't always 100%...
I put a couple dozen feeder shrimp from pet mart in my new little pond. Seeing more and more of them now. I was to lazy to go net them even though I know where to .
Goofing off is a slang term for engaging in recreation or an idle pastime while obligations of work or society are neglected........... Wikipedia
I wish it were that simple for us, but my understanding is that nearly all the pet market sells the P Paludosis, which are not winter hardy enough to live year round this far north. So if we buy them at the pet store, they die out over winter. Have to get from a source that has Palaemometes Kadiakensis or common name Mississippi grass shrimp.
Yea I think I have the p. paludious our native ones. I looked tonight with s flash light . I'm seeing lots. Pretty good sized too, with eggs. I see lots of crayfish too. Amazing what happens with no predators.
Goofing off is a slang term for engaging in recreation or an idle pastime while obligations of work or society are neglected........... Wikipedia
Maybe you can give us an update on how they have done in your pond? I see in the older threads where you were one of the pond owners stocking them several years back. Have they thrived, judt done so so, or what? What type of cover do you have that they prefer to stay in? Etc.
I stocked some in a forage pond last year but will not know if they have done much till next summer.
Edit: I see he already answered me in a similar thread linked here: Shrimp
I don't know what all I have for pond flora. I have a dozen dams that are .5 to 6 acres that all winter killed 2 years ago. Crayfish are in most of the dams that is it. I have shoreline rush grass and then typical moss in the middle of the summer. I probably should know my aquatic species better but I was a range science major and only had to know how to identify the grass's above water.
Chara feels kinda crunchy and has a distinctive musky, garlicky type of odor when crushed. Sometimes called musk grass or skunk grass due to the smell.
Thanks for the referral, Just to let you know that I ordered PK Shrimp on ebay yesterday. Only a trial order to start. I don't know exactly what day they are scheduled to ship but the order is due to be delivered Friday May 1st. I will post on their condition after I receive them.
PK shrimp will survive in a pond that freezes over. But ONLY that specific type will. Pet food shrimp are usually warm weather shrimp species that will not overwinter in a NY pond.
Thanks for the referral, Just to let you know that I ordered PK Shrimp on ebay yesterday.
The ebay guy in Louisiana? I bought a sampler pack from him last year. They arrived in good shape during some 85°-90° weather.
Yep, that's the guy. I wanted to order early in the year to take advantage of shipping in the cooler temperatures. I am relieved to hear that your shrimp arrived in good condition.
This guy was on the forum a while and solicited business illegally via PM - only authorized advertisers are allowed by Bob Lusk to benefit fiscally from the forum resource. When addressed said guy decided to stop frequenting the forum instead of paying for the right to market on the forum/invest in our shared resource [which is a very cheap annual payment], but the damage was done as he'd already secured several sales by then.
Lusk makes it easy to play by the rules here, and many of us look for ways to express our gratitude to Bob and Mike for providing this amazing resource, like my volunteer time [moderators], donations to the forum, or paying for the opportunity to advertise in Pond Boss. Sadly some simply manipulate the system for their financial gain. Guess we all know folks like that, thankfully they don't frequent here often.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
The way PK shrimp are sold is ridiculous for a pond owner. The prices reflect more of a aquarium product than a forage starter product. They need to be sold by the pound at a price that reflects value to buyer and that adequately compensates the opportunity lost (for alternatives) by the culturist. Some day I will culture them but I doubt I will invest into production facilities that would supply all the demand that you refer to. If I have enough for me, at a reasonable cost, I think I would be satisfied.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
It can be very labor intensive collecting PK - that's reflected in the pricing - that's also the reason i don't provide them commercially. That guy selling them on Ebay wades in swamps, canals, and ditches for them. Bear in mind, "exotic" species of forage like LCS, SFS, BNM often go for $4/ea or more [just ask Snipe] - yeah it's aquarium pricing, but due to low demand, it's what the market bears. When you compare shrimp pricing to WE, SMB, YP, etc. they are comparable. When I collect shrimp I easily spend $1/ea in collection effort labor, including the hours spent separating them from BF tadpoles and YOY sunfish - it's a total muddy PITA and sometimes a few hours will yield 25-50 PK. The only feasible way to approach this would be to dedicate a cell to PK shrimp reproduction - demand just isn't high enough for me to dedicate a cell to PK shrimp production and hassle with interstate shipping [and potential legal issues], live arrival guarantees/refunds, etc.
One other thing to consider is when one stocks PK in the right environment/timing, they will create a self sustaining population and there's no need for further investment. That helped me mitigate the initial stocking sticker shock when I started 10 years ago. Now all my 7 ponds have solid populations - but I did invest significantly initially at $.50 a pop.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
so TJ it sounds like if many/most of us got a few going in a pond that had enough vegetation and correct water quality characteristics, then many could get a solid population. If then folks wanted to help out other folks by providing a small starting population, the missing link to success is just collection? So to me it sounds like a successful entrepenuer would experiment with new innovative ways to collect them? It sounds like wading around with nets is the current method which is labor intensive. Perhaps some outside of the box thinking about attractants, baits, or traps would close the gap on success? I would certainly love to have a separate forage tank/cell to do just that.
I wonder if a environment high in the nutrients or minerals they require would cause them to congregate?
Just so everyone knows ... I don't think anyone is overpaying for PK shrimp. If one is going to collect specimens from the wild ... that has value and it also cost ... it deserves compensation.
Many years ago PK shrimp were investigated in species combinations for fish production. The treatments were on the order of 20 lbs/acre. To be sure, these experiments didn't have the scientists wading the swamps ... they cultured them ... and yes we have known how to culture them for a long time. So why doesn't anyone culture them today?
Let me pose this as question. Why would someone stop producing FHM in a space in order to produce PK shrimp? The only reason I could think of is that it would pay him to do it. But consider producing 600 lbs of PK shrimp in the space you could produce 4000-6000 pounds of FHM. You would need to price the shrimp much higher. The guy on ebay sells them for $800 a pound in the 200 count. He deserves the price because you can't get it anywhere else. If anyone wants to complain about the price ... collect them yourself and you wouldn't mind it so much. Besides, its not like he is getting rich. According to the listing he has sold 20 of the packages. Its worth his while, supplements his income, but it isn't a living even though he is the only supplier.
But lets say someone decides to culture them and prices them by the pound at say $80. Do you think he would be interested to sell anyone a 200 count of them? Don't you think he would want to sell you 5 lbs instead? Who among us would be willing to pay $400-$800 to add an invertebrate? To be sure, there are some and I am among them. Even so, there are not very many.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
jpsdad, Thanks for the background info. I didn't mean anyone was going to start a business or make money. I was thinking that like so many other things on this forum, our 'family' would have enough to help each other. Even if each had one forage pond full, having a way to harvest them to share with others (beyond wading and netting) would really help all of us help each other. This is where putting our combined experience and innovation together may help. Since you are right, it won't be a money maker and probalby will never be a commercial interest of anyone, then that usually pulls down the barriers for sharing. There is no trade secret and no lost fortunes at stake. I would think if someone was really good at it they might be able to sell some to their local bait shop but outside of that it probably would remain local and on a small scale.
The Fattig family who used to sell to members of this forum kept their collection method private. I can understand this, to protect their income. But now it seems that all sources have dried up. It would help all of us if a little of the knowledge about how to culture or how to capture was not 'patented'. I also think many retirees have a little time on their hands and a trackhoe in their barn, it might be fun to dig a hole, try to plant some eelgrass and then ask the forum for what water condtions, hardness, pH, calcium, etc is best for supporting PK shrimp? They might also learn how to encourage breeding and then they could experiment with different types of methods of collecting. Perhaps see if a circulating pump and filter would make collection less labor intensive? How about nutrient attractants? Put the females all in one area? Experiment with zones of higher or lower temperature within the pond, or with artificial light of different wavelengths.
I know in my pond there was a specific event that made all the PK shrimp come out of hiding and be easy to spot in the shallows for a day or two. I believe they all were reacting to a specific nerve irritant at the same time. If I could reproduce the conditions and not 'irritate' them enough to kill them, it might be a way to collect larger quantities. Unfortunately, I can't grow enough vegetation to support them in my pond. Time for a forage pond
My main point was less about economics and more about the pondmeister's need. 200 shrimp is a tiny quantity that may take years to fully establish in a 1 acre pond. It would be helpful if one could affordably purchase sufficient quantities that would provide both a meaningful impact in the year of introduction but also provide sufficient reproduction to determine whether the population overwintered and established.
Say if you want to culture them I could offer some suggestions. In terms of my own plans, I want some small forage culturing ponds to complement the main bow. What is cultured in them will complement the forage of the main bow. PK shrimp, among some other forages, have potential to produce many times their stocking weight and so there is a leveraging effect. Berried crayfish also offer similar potential. I would, however, probably only culture PK shrimp until I determine that the overwintering standing weight in the main bow is large in comparison to what can be cultured. So the forage produced would evolve.
Rather than collecting PK shrimp from your main BOW, why not create a smaller BOW that if fishless and culture the PK shrimp there. For every 100 ft^2 you could grow about 2.75 lbs annually. That equates to about 3575 shrimps. You only need to reserve about 200 shrimps for seed then next year. Might have to keep them inside through winter and it would be best if the production pond is drained and dried between crops. PK numbers and weight will peak in August and November. Taking a crop in August may increase overall production. Just supply your BOW or pondboss members when you crop. Collection in a culturing facility like this could be done with a large dip net with a fine mesh. To reach the production level of 2.75 lbs/100 ft^2 will probable require the addition of a substrate (eg cedar brush). Before harvest you would remove the brush and seine with your net. If the production pond will drain into your main bow, you could empty it in the fall via drain.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Been working with PK shrimp for the past 7-8 years now - this is what I learned about stocking strategies with direction from Cody and Travis and through many trials [and errors!]:
Fisheries with sufficient macrophytes established prior to predator stocking [only FHM/GSH forage present] we stocked 250-500/AC. For fisheries with established predators [and macrophytes] present we doubled that number to 1000/AC. For fisheries lacking habitat [macrophytes] regardless of fishery present we strongly encouraged not to invest in PK introduction until habitat could be established. By following these guidelines a self sustaining population developed in every project in which I was involved within a season. In some cases [due to low qty of PK available] I've achieved this with as few as 50 adults, but the population took longer to establish, as one would suspect. Hope some of this is helpful.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
The literature is a good reference for simultaneous stocking with fingerling fish but your experience (and Bill's) of introducing into ponds with adult fish is very valuable.
Generally, when a new species invades a new habitat it will build in numbers over a few seasons finally reaching it's a maximum after this buildup. Fish eat them and they would be poor forage if they didn't so this predation helps to slow down the build up. After 7 years, what are your thoughts on how long it took for the PK shrimp to reach their final place?
PK shrimp evolved with macrophytes as habitat and their importance is duly noted. But it may surprise one to learn that there is an alternative to them for cover. Brush has been demonstrated to greatly increase production of PK shrimp relative to controls and may work to protect a population while the macrophytes populations are developing.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
How do PK Shrimp overwinter? I just ordered 100 for my pond that has plenty of vegetation 9 months of year but all the pond weed dies back during coldest months of the winter (I am in northern VA). I don't have predators now but will add SMB next spring. Hoping PK Shrimp can be a permanent and sustainable part of food chain. Do I need to add brush to help with winter survivals?
I would think brush would probably help with winter survival ... at least it is an arguable outcome. In the what I have read, brush and plants were not discussed as cover for the shrimp but rather as substrate providing additional attachment surface that winds up providing more food for shrimp relative to the control.
The most production I have seen cited was with brush in combination with fertilization. In the treatments where fertilization and brush were used, the production of PK shrimp was 1044 lbs/acre. What is remarkable about that number is that the shrimp were stocked with 1500 2" BG/acre which produced 210 lbs/acre of BG. All this in the space of 6 months.
Stocked without brush in fertilized ponds and as a monoculture, the PK shrimp only produced 566 lbs/acre. When fertilized ponds without brush were stocked with 1500 BG/acre they produced about 93 lbs/acre of PK shrimp and 209.5 lbs/acre of BG.
So the interesting part is that the brush didn't make a difference in the GAIN of 1500 BG/acre. Apparently, the BG ate as much as they were able to in both treatments. The difference for the PK shrimp is that there was much more food and habitat for them because of the brush. In so much as the brush produces more shrimp, brush must also help more of them overwinter even if it were to provide no meaningful cover for shrimp.
Grass shrimp have a few things going for them with respect to survival. They reproduce, they can eat a wide variety of foods including detritus, and they have adapted to be difficult to see. All these things help them survive predation and establish populations.
***Bump***
PK shrimp are not native to Virginia butP. Paludosus is and depending on your location may be better than kadiakensis.
Last edited by jpsdad; 04/28/2011:10 PM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Been working with PK shrimp for the past 7-8 years now - this is what I learned about stocking strategies with direction from Cody and Travis and through many trials [and errors!]:
Fisheries with sufficient macrophytes established prior to predator stocking [only FHM/GSH forage present] we stocked 250-500/AC. For fisheries with established predators [and macrophytes] present we doubled that number to 1000/AC. For fisheries lacking habitat [macrophytes] regardless of fishery present we strongly encouraged not to invest in PK introduction until habitat could be established. By following these guidelines a self sustaining population developed in every project in which I was involved within a season. In some cases [due to low qty of PK available] I've achieved this with as few as 50 adults, but the population took longer to establish, as one would suspect. Hope some of this is helpful.
TJ, I bought 1,000 PK shrimp and spread them 20 to 40 in various shallow weed areas in my pond. Haven't seen them since, but I haven't looked either. Hope they made it.
Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Do you guys think PK Shrimp have an advantage over scuds?? Also, HOW well do they over winter? I have VERY few predators and TONS of fantastic habitat. If they are significantly better than scuds I will add some and see what happens.
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Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.
Do you guys think PK Shrimp have an advantage over scuds?? Also, HOW well do they over winter? I have VERY few predators and TONS of fantastic habitat. If they are significantly better than scuds I will add some and see what happens.
Probably the best advantage of PK shrimp is that they grow much larger than scuds and provide a bigger meal. In your situation, it could be risky to develop a large population that carries into winter. PK will be at that their maximum biomass in the fall going into the ice season. So the risk might be that they tip the balance on O2.
Its not clear whether they would do well in a mountain lake or whether they would survive the winter conditions. On the other hand, If they were to do well, you could never get rid of them.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.
So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Considering they're translucent it requires collection efforts to verify presence - I have the best luck once water temps reach 70s in shallow vegetation.
Are they spawned out at that time?
I believe they continue rolling while temps are in 70s...so Spring/early Summer and then again in early Fall
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
jpsdad, Thanks for the background info. I didn't mean anyone was going to start a business or make money. I was thinking that like so many other things on this forum, our 'family' would have enough to help each other. Even if each had one forage pond full, having a way to harvest them to share with others (beyond wading and netting) would really help all of us help each other. This is where putting our combined experience and innovation together may help. Since you are right, it won't be a money maker and probalby will never be a commercial interest of anyone, then that usually pulls down the barriers for sharing. There is no trade secret and no lost fortunes at stake. I would think if someone was really good at it they might be able to sell some to their local bait shop but outside of that it probably would remain local and on a small scale.
The Fattig family who used to sell to members of this forum kept their collection method private. I can understand this, to protect their income. But now it seems that all sources have dried up. It would help all of us if a little of the knowledge about how to culture or how to capture was not 'patented'. I also think many retirees have a little time on their hands and a trackhoe in their barn, it might be fun to dig a hole, try to plant some eelgrass and then ask the forum for what water condtions, hardness, pH, calcium, etc is best for supporting PK shrimp? They might also learn how to encourage breeding and then they could experiment with different types of methods of collecting. Perhaps see if a circulating pump and filter would make collection less labor intensive? How about nutrient attractants? Put the females all in one area? Experiment with zones of higher or lower temperature within the pond, or with artificial light of different wavelengths.
I know in my pond there was a specific event that made all the PK shrimp come out of hiding and be easy to spot in the shallows for a day or two. I believe they all were reacting to a specific nerve irritant at the same time. If I could reproduce the conditions and not 'irritate' them enough to kill them, it might be a way to collect larger quantities. Unfortunately, I can't grow enough vegetation to support them in my pond. Time for a forage pond
Jeff - collection was pretty simple: They owned several hatchery ponds and simply pulled the seine around the edges. I think their PK pond had gams [they sold these also] and that was it. Hard work, sometimes they had to break ice to make November deliveries, but Nebraskans don't mind. I've broken ice to seine...don't miss those times.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.
So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.
Scuds are pretty much ubiquitous in high mountain lakes and streams. I would be very surprised if his lake didn't have them.
It still remains unclear to me whether PK shrimp would thrive there. The growing season is shorter and the water temps don't get as high. The conditions favor scuds and that is why I think they are already there. The introduction of PK shrimp in this biome constitutes an experiment that isn't founded on the best reasons.
Many good intentions have played out through the past with many, many examples of unintended consequences. There seems to be two outcomes with most introductions of species in non-native habitats. Either the introduction falls flat on its face and fails in which case the hypothesis driving the introduction is falsified. Or the introduction succeeds beyond all expectations and consequences develop that are not desired nor beneficial to the community of organisms ... in which case the hypothesis is falsified. There are few cases, if any, where the full cascading outcome was foreseeable and predictable (although perhaps failure to thrive may have been predictable in some cases).
There is a curiosity that I most certainly have about this experiment. I would like to know its outcome and I have nothing to lose in watching it play out. For all the reasons I have mentioned, I wouldn't recommend it but its a choice that ultimately falls on the owner.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Chad I think PK could make it [aside from your DO issues] - we have no issues in NE and our water gets just as cold as yours, our season is just shorter. One variable might be your pond being devoid of macrophytes for longer periods so they may be more vulnerable to predation than they are here - but I don't think the cold itself would impact their survival. I think scuds could also be great in your pond. Dr Dave Willis told me once that Devil's Lake is supported entirely by scuds - no smelt, shad, alewife or other forage fish present. That really blew my mind considering the quantity and size of the YP, SMB, WE, NP etc. that exist in that fishery - but you know, Dr. Willis was a great teacher and related lots of those cool facts to us.
So...I think it would be worth trying both scuds and PK Shrimp. If you drive through NE this year let me know a few weeks in advance and I'll do my damnedest to collect some for you on your way out West.
TJ thanks so much!! I just might take you up on that offer!!
How well do PK Shrimp survive with crayfish?
We actually have more scuds in our lake than I've personally ever seen anywhere else. They have always been there so I think they are basically impervious to low DO. I imagine the PK Shrimp would be a big bonus for growing bigger fish because the scuds are just so small. I am assuming PK Shrimp have the same basic nutritional content of the scuds just more of it??
Jpsdad - I am a gambling man!!
This video doesn't do our scud population justice. You have to open it to full screen to really see them. I need to get a better video this summer.
Last edited by wbuffetjr; 04/30/2010:55 AM.
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We actually have more scuds in our lake than I've personally ever seen anywhere else .... I imagine the PK Shrimp would be a big bonus for growing bigger fish because the scuds are just so small.
In most cases of species introduction into non-native habitats the anticipated benefit has always been exaggerated and never quite meeting the original expectations. It is very easy to be deluded into thinking that some outcome will definitely occur with no consequences. Generally, these deductions are supported by facts but the problem with the facts is that they pertain to a separate ecosystem with its own variables. This risk you face is that the outcome is just the opposite of what you expect. PK shrimp are omnivorous and will prey on scud young. The scuds are small, but abundant, and easy to see for any trout. It will all depend on whether the trout are able to consume enough of PK shrimp to make a difference for the trout.
In Alabama, treatments of Gambusia significantly outperformed PK shrimp in terms of BG production. A number of factors contributed to this but what is remarkable is that Gambusia never achieve high standing weights like PK shrimp demonstrated they could in those trials. There was much food available to the BG in the PK shrimp treatments so it is worth asking why the PK shrimp didn't help the BG to gain more?
Quote
Jpsdad - I am a gambling man!!
OK. It's your choice. Probably won't be a big risk from a local ecology perspective ... although I have no facts to support that proposition. Just keep in mind that it isn't just your asset that may be affected. It is possible for the project to fail in your lake but for progeny to flourish downstream where they are unwanted.
Last edited by jpsdad; 04/30/2009:08 AM.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
Chad those scuds are so cool...I'd love to get some of those rolling in a recruitment cell sometime and let em loose in the ponds.
Aaron Matos grows the largest, most beautiful BG I've ever seen using a combination of high quality feed, Gams, FHM, Scuds and PK shrimp and extremely high water quality pumping benthic pond water up through a wetland to process nutrients then oxygenate through a waterfall back into the pond. I might try to get some gams going in my trophy lepomis fishery this Summer.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
To be clear, and I'm sure you know, scuds are different than grass shrimp. I have purchased scuds from goliad and from another supplier (I believe Kyle at Habitat Now but memory is poor). They both were 'scuds' by advertising but I got very different looking critters (size and shape).
Without proper water quality and habitat they may not survive. I tried stocking on a few occasions but none survived. I have no refuge for them as my vegetation is gone (blame the goldfish, the crayfish, or both)
I did try this fall to release a small number of PK shrimp into some areas where I have mats of sedge that fall over and float over the shallows and capture mats of FA. That is the best refuge I have and hoping they will survive and reproduce. Seems like slim chance though. We'll see over time.
Thanks snipe, the ones from habitatnow contain like 20-40,000 , but around 350 shipped is steep. Did the ones from Goliad take in your pond? I have plenty of weeds, dead weeds, leaves and muck in my pond here in Kansas.
Yeah, there are a couple of firms selling scuds in the gallon range but usually sell out about mid november. This is a big ticket item for attracting ducks..the waterfowlers snatch them up pretty quick.
Yeah, there are a couple of firms selling scuds in the gallon range but usually sell out about mid november. This is a big ticket item for attracting ducks..the waterfowlers snatch them up pretty quick.
Could you point us to the firms that sell scuds by the gallon?
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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