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 Quote:
One last comment "DO NOT USE OSB under the metal roof" period


too bad this comment wasnt made a month ago.......something else for me to worry about. my new carport structure was sheeted in OSB (but sheared w/ ply). at least the rest of the house has regular ply sheeting under that blue roof...


GSF are people too!

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Here is a techincal doc that discusses the issue of OSB and screw pullout strength. You can use OSB and fur strips which would help with staying on the 12x12 pitch while roofing but you can not use standing seam and would have to change to U or R panel roofing.

http://www.fabral.com/technical/Residential.pdf




Last edited by rockytopper; 01/07/09 02:17 PM.


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Coming from the realm of pole barns, the thought of putting anything other than 2'x4's underneath metal roofing had never occurred to me.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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heybud #143798 01/07/09 04:26 PM
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 Originally Posted By: heybud
Bski, I was curious about how much a conventional septic system will cost you up there. I just put one in here at the place. In the county I live in, if you have more than 10 acres and only one house on it you can install it yourself. You must have a site plan prepared by an engineer, which I did. I hired several guys to help dig hole and install septic tank. 1000 gallon baffled tank cost me 640 bucks, plus 115 bucks to deliver and sit in hole. The tank weighs 9000 lbs so it was worth the charge. We installed 30 bio diffusion panels at a cost of 1400 bucks.I would say total cost was around 3500 bucks.


Dang, Heybud....that's the first time I've seen a field like that. Now I gotta google bio diffusion panels (I hope I don't get that pic of the guy with the anti-seep collar in the prone-pipe position.

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Brettski,

Regarding the woodstove, although I'm far from an expert I've used/had several and most of the folks I hang around with have one. For your style of structure I'd highly recommend a soapstone stove (ex. Woodstock Soapstone Stoves). The are highly efficient and they distribute the heat evenly and hold it for a longer time than a steel stove. They are basiclly a steel framed stove with slabs of soapstone filling in the frame. The Mrs. will also like the look.

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Hey RockyT...where the heck you been big guy? I've been waitin' for ya to kick in. I'm gonna hi lite my feedback on all your input, copied below along with your plans.
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The main comment I have ( and it's not a kook one)is you got to many hall ways. GET RID OF THEM! Your goal is to make use of every inch of space in the box. Hallways are a major waist of space. I always always avoid them. I am a true believer in the "OPEN CONCEPT" design approach and combined use of space. Get more from less. Look & feel Bigger. Totally agree on the open concept. It has been one of the strongest driving forces in home design for the last 20 years. It is a design characteristic that we want. The hallways are a necessary evil to achieve all the things we want in this small package.

Below is another take on the pond cabin/shop. From what you're saying you are on a tight budget. The plan below is based on a 24 x 36 foot print and yields you more shop and living space by combing them together. Once abandoned the kitchen could become the work bench area of the shop. How do we do that same design and keep the 2.5 car (2 stall) garage? I want the larger garage, 2 bedrooms, at least one full bath, and a substantial portion of the living space dedicated to...well...living at the pond. BTW, I deplore spiral staircases (might just be me...?).

I have to agree with Eddie. A single story is much more economical than multi story. We are all on the same page there. My first plan was a 2 story design. It was OTT for this first structure and will not work into the grand plan....too big (and expensive). Have you considered a metal building structure? The cost of the unfinished shell is far less than a stick built home or shop. THey can be finished out to look like a stick structure if desired. The cost of the foundation alone would be far less. I don't know about Texas, but where I come from stick built structures carry considerably higher resale value than pole frame. Dollar for dollar, for this kind of building, the dollars I put out today for this plan will bury a pole frame structure as an investment if/when it comes time to sell. Which brings up another VERY important fact. All this planning and construction has to be done with resale in mind. Nothing is for sure, and this project might wind up being somebody else's baby. Ask Eastland. Sometimes money speaks louder than my heart can scream. I need to be able to meet my expectations and create a product that will meet the highest percentage of potential customers that might also want it. The foundation you have planned would cost a fortune in my neck of the woods. Perhaps due to the soils or frost in your area the large footings and grade beam are required. Good luck my friend. No options on the foundation; gotta have footers and a wall. Since we are setting the footings onto clay, we will be able to save some time/money by setting trench footings.One last comment "DO NOT USE OSB under the metal roof" period. OSB will not hold wood screws near as well as good old fashion plywood. 5/8 thick min. If you don't believe me just ask my neighbor. His entire metal roof has peeled back over the ridge twice in 10 years. Mine has never even rippled. It cost me 2500$ more than OSB but money well spent. OSB is fine for the side walls. Although I usally put good ole ply wood on the four corners for shear loads. This I did not know. I'm not sure I totally agree with the analysis that the torque of the screw, as it sets the rubber gasket, is right at the same torque required to alter the integrity of the OSB structure, but I surely can see where plywood wood blow OSB away in structural integrity for the application. I have always been a plywood guy; just never knew that OSB was close enough to the failure curve to be reconsidered for sheathing on a metal roof. This does make sense to me.
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You the man, Rocky. Kick some of it back.

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 Originally Posted By: bryani289swmi
Brettski,

Regarding the woodstove, although I'm far from an expert I've used/had several and most of the folks I hang around with have one. For your style of structure I'd highly recommend a soapstone stove (ex. Woodstock Soapstone Stoves). The are highly efficient and they distribute the heat evenly and hold it for a longer time than a steel stove. They are basiclly a steel framed stove with slabs of soapstone filling in the frame. The Mrs. will also like the look.

Whoa! bryani289swmi makes his first PB post and he elects to spend it on my Pond Home thread! Yeah baby...thank you. bry-man; WELCOME to the PB forum!
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I love those stoves....who dun't? I can only recall looking at Vermont Castings and was FLOORED by the prices. Are they all that 'spensive?

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 Originally Posted By: Brettski
One last comment "DO NOT USE OSB under the metal roof" period. OSB will not hold wood screws near as well as good old fashion plywood. 5/8 thick min. If you don't believe me just ask my neighbor. His entire metal roof has peeled back over the ridge twice in 10 years. Mine has never even rippled. It cost me 2500$ more than OSB but money well spent. OSB is fine for the side walls. Although I usally put good ole ply wood on the four corners for shear loads. [color:#CC0000]This I did not know. I'm not sure I totally agree with the analysis that the torque of the screw, as it sets the rubber gasket, is right at the same torque required to alter the integrity of the OSB structure, but I surely can see where plywood wood blow OSB away in structural integrity for the application. I have always been a plywood guy; just never knew that OSB was close enough to the failure curve to be reconsidered for sheathing on a metal roof. This does make sense to me.


I do a fair amount of repairs on homes to have seen a variety of failures on roofs. In every case, it's not the decking that's the problem, it's the fasteners that were used to hold down the roofing material. With shingles, roofers can save money, and/or make a bigger profit by using one inch nails to hold down the shingles. Those nails are not long enough to fully penetrate the decking material. It doesn't matter what the decking is, the nail wont hold unless it goes all the way through. The point must not be inside of the wood for the nail to hold.

The same is true with screws and metal roofs. The screws used to hold metal roofs come in different lengths and every time I see a problem on a metal roof, it's because of shortcuts that were taken in attaching the metal. Wood screws have to be long enough to go all the way through the decking material. If the threads have not gone all the way through and you cannot see threads on the underside of the decking, the screws are not at full strength.

There is also some discussion on where to put the screws. I put them on the flat of the panel so when tightened up, there is no gap between metal and wood. It is solid. Some manufacturers recommend screwing through the peaks of the metal. I've seen it on their websites, so I know it's true, but I don't agree with this. I buy from Mueller's, and they recommend screwing through the flats. .

I would really like to have looked at that roof that failed twice in ten years to see what they were doing wrong. I don't think it was the OSB, but in how the metal was attached to the OSB.

Eddie


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 Originally Posted By: Brettski
I love those stoves....who dun't? I can only recall looking at Vermont Castings and was FLOORED by the prices. Are they all that 'spensive?


I'm with ya there Bski. When we eventually build our house we'll look at some higher priced stoves but I gotta tell ya I couldn't believe how expense a wood stove could get.


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Brettski,

Spiral stairs are crap. You really don't want them. Stairs are bad enough, but having to carry just about anything up them will make you hate them even more. Avoid them at all costs!!!!

Why the limits on your footprint?

Why not build a full two story building? and have full sized walls to work with on the second level?

In your replies, you have shown allot of research and knowledge of the engineering aspect of what you want to do. Are you an engineer? But a lack of building design. You state that you want to build it for resale value, but your plan doesn't address allot of the basics the people look for in a living space. While the view of the pond will be excellent, the fact that you have to climb upstairs to see it is a negative right from the start. You don't have any usable walls or storage in the kitchen area. You don't have a full bathroom where your bedrooms are located and there is not heating in the downstairs.

If you were buying the property with the house on it that you have drawn, would you expect to pay more per acre for it, or would it be something that you would consider a remodel/redo building and not give it any value to the property? A well designed home/building will add value to a property. A poorly designed one will either take away from the overall value, or not affect the price of the land.

Have you written down a list of what you want this building to accomplish? Garage. What will it be used for? Storage of vehicles? Tools? A workspace for building stuff around the land? Place to park a tractor. Eventually, you will have to buy a tractor. Where will you store it? What about impliments? Will them be left outside? Removing snow from your drive will become a big project once you live there. Maintaining and mowing your walking trails will also require regular use of a tractor. Then there is the area around the house. What will you use to mow your lawn? A tractor is terrible at this. You really need a riding lawn mower for this. Where will it be parked? Will you buy a four wheeler?

Do you have plans for a barn in your master plan? Will you be raising animals of any kind? horses? Chickens?

Do you really need to be up on a second floor to enjoy the view of your pond? Have you been on top of one of your sheds and seen the view? Is it that much better? Is there a difference?

Your building is based on the balcony. There doesn't seem to be any other reason for your design. You are trying to save money on some things, but then spending top dollar on your design and building in the most expensive way possible. That roof is going to be very expensive and there is no advantage to it. In face, the way it's designed, it's a negative because you are losing wall space in the living area. Kind of like building a modified A frame.

Have you been to http://www.eplans.com and looked at different plans? It's a good source for ideas and to see how the pros have done it. I don't know if there is such a thing as a new plan, since just about every way of doing it has been already done. Find a few plans that you like, modify them to work with your goals and then work out the details. Figuring out how to run your chimney on a plan that doesn't work seems to be time spent in the wrong direction.

If you want to heat and cool a massive ceiling, have you considered exposed beams? A heck of allot cheaper then engineered rafters. Scissor trusses will also give you a raised ceiling that can handle the snow loads without having to go the rout of engineered rafters.

Having a nice patio on the ground floor will give you an unlimited amount of space without the constant upkeep and expense of a balcony deck with limited space. Especially if this is just a temporary place to stay until you build your dream home.

A single bedroom cottage or cabin without a second story or garage would give you the most bang for your buck. There are allot of them out there to chose from that would increase the value of the land and add to the beauty of your setting. Most of the log cabin designs are excellent in their use of space and price to build. Just copy the design and build with dimensional lumber with whatever exterior that you plant to use on the main house. No garage or storage area, but that could be accomplished at a later date with a nice barn/workshop that would also increase the value of your property.

A dedicated workshop/barn is something that every guy who does anything himself will need and appreciate. You can build a pole barn without a concrete floor for $10 a foot pretty easily and then come back at a later date to pour concrete floors, insulate it and add leanto's to the sides.

Hopefully this didn't come across as too negative. I sometimes come across as being negative, when I'm hoping to offer an alternative to a plan that in my opinion could be improved upon. I apologize if I've offended you, but from what I've seen you accomplish so far, I think you could do allot better. This design is so flawed that it needs to be scraped.

Eddie


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Do your on test. Put a screw into 5/8 plywood and then do the same in OSB. I grant you I can pull the screw straight out of the OSB with little effort. I had a truck load of it setting in my yard ready to go on. I simply ran a screw in a sheet and pulled on the screw. The result made me call my lumber boys and come pick up the load and bring 5/8 plywood. I also buy from Mueller’s and I used the AP panel which has the look of standing seem and they recommend 5/8 ply decking. The reason my neighbors roof peeled back over the ridge is because they originally built and installed a composition roof and then a year latter decided to go metal. They installed 1x4 furring strips on 24 OC and attached the metal roof. The reason it failed is because the contractor cut corners and did not take the time to find the rafters and screw the furring strips to them. They simply screwed at random thru the OSB. The entire roof along with furring strips still attached to the sheet metal completed folded over the ridge twice sense they built in 1997. Apparently they did the same half A.. job repairing it the second time.

I know every major Home builder uses OSB but that isn’t because it's better than ply. It's just much cheaper. I would not use it unless I planned to use furring strips and installed them properly thru the rafters. I have not priced it lately but I believe using OSB and 1x4 furring strips is cheaper than a solid 5/8 ply deck but as I stated you'll be stuck using U,R, or H panel with furring strips.





Last edited by rockytopper; 01/08/09 09:42 AM.


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Has for stoves the earth stove in our budget was 1300$. Budget ran short. TSC stove was 399$ still heating 11 years and counting.



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 Originally Posted By: eddie_walker
Hopefully this didn't come across as too negative. I sometimes come across as being negative, when I'm hoping to offer an alternative to a plan that in my opinion could be improved upon. I apologize if I've offended you, but from what I've seen you accomplish so far, I think you could do allot better.


Eddie you are pull no punches kinda guy. I like that. I don't think Bski will be offended. He asked for input and you and Rocky are giving him that.


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Interesting stuff on the OSB Rocky. We are in the very early stages of home design research and many of the builders use OSB. After reading your info I'm definately going to insist on plywood. The shop we just had built has a plywood roof base, that was one of the real features that they played up, now I know why.

When I get ready to finalize designs I'm going to post them up here. All this input it great!


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Oh and Rocky, your website doesn't load for me, just a heads up.


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"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
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 Originally Posted By: eddie_walker

Hopefully this didn't come across as too negative. I sometimes come across as being negative, when I'm hoping to offer an alternative to a plan that in my opinion could be improved upon. I apologize if I've offended you, but from what I've seen you accomplish so far, I think you could do allot better. This design is so flawed that it needs to be scraped.

Eddie



No offense taken whatsoever, Eddie. If I couldn't take constructive criticism, I wouldn't have "put it out there". The non-constructive criticism I get (stuff like the heat I take from Sunil, Theo, JHAP, and Burgermeister) is laughed off as low cost entertainment.
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All of your points are valid. So are all of mine. In fact, everybody that has responded to this thread has valid arguments for their position. But, just like snowflakes, we all have different goals and a multitude of reasons for the path we take to achieve them. You and Rockytopper both have experience with "peering into the mind" of a prospective client for which you are about to do home construction (or related). You also know that it is impossible to accurately assess the best route for a specific project without completely immersing yourself into the site's specifics and the customer's needs and desires. It is a process laden with details and foresight that could never be accomplished in a forum thread. I accept that...I gotta. What I do is take all the input, throw it into the trick bag, and give it a shake. The stuff that rises to the top (whether it be Heybud's thought on septic or RockyT's thought on OSB vs Ply, or Eddie's ideas regarding implement storage) is skimmed off and inserted into Bski's equation. This is what makes this thread successful for me.

Last edited by Brettski; 01/08/09 10:10 AM. Reason: forgot JHAP in my list of hecklers
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Edited by Brettski (January 08, 2009 07:10 AM)
Edit Reason: forgot JHAP in my list of hecklers


HOW COULD YOU FORGET ME???????

Sheesh I'm telling ya I don't get no respect.




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OK then here it is. I agree with Eddie. Your plans SUCK. You need to hire me to Draw it and Eddie to build it. Then it will be perfect.





Seriously I don’t like the plan you have because personally I agree with Eddie it isn’t big enough to be a manly shop. You basically have a studio apartment with a 2 car garage. Not a shop. I think in the end you will not be happy because of it. From every thing I have seen you do and I admire all of it (especially the football field of grass you tilled up with a flower bed tiller Amazing) I truly feel you will want and need more shop space because of your craftsmanship and mostly for all the pond and land chores and projects to come. As stated in the end if your happy with it then that is all that counts. Build it.


I’m going to throw one more ideal at you for consideration. Why not a 32 x 32 foot print same basic sq ft as your 24 x 42. Now listen and don’t use the no center beam excuse on me for now. I did a quick sketch and it would appear you can fit (2) 10x10 bed rooms on one end, then a 8x10 kitchen and bath across from it, then a 20 x 14 living area out front lake side with deck as you have planned. The roof pitch could be reduced to 8/12. this would yield a 20 x 32 space with 4 ft side walls, or stick with 12 x 12 and have 6 ft side walls. The entire bottom floor would all be shop except for the stair case and bath under it. Just food for thought. My personsal shop is 36 x 36 with 12 ft walls. I would go 10 ft ceiling min in the shop area speaking from my on experiences.


That’s all I have to say about that…………….


Last edited by rockytopper; 01/08/09 11:49 AM.


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 Originally Posted By: rockytopper
OK then here it is. I agree with Eddie. Your plans SUCK. Sorry; this one got stuck to the bottom of the trick bag.



(especially the football field of grass you tilled up with a flower bed tiller Amazing) explains alot, don't it?

I truly feel you will want and need more shop space because of your craftsmanship and mostly for all the pond and land chores and projects to come. As stated in the end if your happy with it then that is all that counts. Build it. ...still kickin' the tires

I’m going to throw one more ideal at you for consideration. Why not a 32 x 32 foot print same basic sq ft as your 24 x 42. Now listen and don’t use the no center beam excuse on me for now. holding fire
I did a quick sketch and it would appear you can fit (2) 10x10 bed rooms on one end, then a 8x10 kitchen and bath across from it, then a 20 x 14 living area out front lake side with deck as you have planned. The roof pitch could be reduced to 8/12. (love this idea; big time) this would yield a 20 x 32 space with 4 ft side walls hmmmm... , or stick with 12 x 12 and have 6 ft side walls. The entire bottom floor would all be shop except for the stair case and bath under it. Just food for thought. My personsal shop is 36 x 36 with 12 ft walls. I would go 10 ft ceiling min in the shop area speaking from my on experiences.

Crap! Now I do have to go back to the drawing board. (I still hate the thought of the center beam)



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Quote "If you want to heat and cool a massive ceiling, have you considered exposed beams? A heck of allot cheaper then engineered rafters. Scissor trusses will also give you a raised ceiling that can handle the snow loads without having to go the rout of engineered rafters."

Exibit A:







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Hey RT, where have you been?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Something else that I've been thinking about is how things that you think you want before living in the country change after living there. I grew up in the SF East Bay Area of California with about ten million other people. It has been a dream of mine to have a few acres and live out in the country. I had all sorts of things that I wanted when that happened. Now that it's happened, I've learned that it's nothing like I thought it would be.

A few good examples. I wanted to be able to sit on the porch and enjoy a fire. That just seemed like the greatest way to spend the evening. The first time I did it, I loved it. Then the next few times, it sort of lost it's appeal. I still like a fire, but sitting out there and watching it isn't all that interesting after working a burn pile that's 40 feet long and has dozens of trees burning in it.

Living out here, I spend all day outdoors working on the land. If it's light out and not raining, then I'm going to be doing something on the land or my equipment. It could be mowing, picking up limbs, taking out trees, moving dirt or cleaning out ditches. The list is never ending, but it's always outdoors. When the day comes to an end, I'm not interested in the view or what's happening outside.

I wonder how ofter you'll actually sit and enjoy that view, or relax on the deck? I'm sure it will be used allot at first, that goes without saying, but after a year, will it be as big a deal as it was at first?

Instead, how much fun will it be carrying load after load of firewood up the stairs. How many loads will you burn in and evening? How many loads during a day in the middle of winter? When I had a wood fireplace, I would burn four loads a night when it got cold out.

Where will you keep that firewood? How many chords will you need to get through winter? Some guys that I've read their posts on storing firewood will have ten chords or more for winter. If you only need half that, you'll still be spending allot of time cutting, splitting and stacking firewood. Then you get to carry it up the stairs a couple times every night.

Where will you store your log splitter? Then take up allot of room. How will you get the wood from where you are splitting it to where you will store it? Do you have a truck for this? Allot of guys use their tractor and carry it in their front loader. Others carry the whole log with a grapple on the front of their tractor and work the wood at their shop or woodshed.

You didn't address any of my other concerns, which are things that I never thought about before moving out here. Mowing and maintaining roads takes equipment. Equipment need maintenance and wears out. Parts break and need replacing. Where will you put your air compressor and welder?

Will you have a generator for those times the power is out? We lost power for 4 days this year. Others have had power out for weeks. You can heat the house with your fireplace, but what about keeping food cold or hot water for bathing? Where will you put that generator?

The list goes on and on. I realize that you have set some goals with your building, but the reason for those goals seems to be where we differ. If you build it like you have it, I'm worried that you might very well regret it and wish you had done it differently.

Eddie


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 Originally Posted By: rockytopper
Do your on test. Put a screw into 5/8 plywood and then do the same in OSB. I grant you I can pull the screw straight out of the OSB with little effort.


Are we comparing apples to apples here with 5/8s plywood and 19/32's OSB? Or are you comparing the 5/8 plywood to 7.16's OSB?

Are you using the same type and length of screws in your test?

I find it just about impossible to believe that you can pull a screw out of OSB with little effort. Heck, it takes effort to do this with a nail. Pulling screws out of OSB with my pry bar destroys the OSB when coming out. Usually when I pull screws out of 7/16 OSB, the head either breaks off or the wood around the screw comes out and creates a volcano looking area where it came out.

I've never tried this with 5/8 plywood, nor have I tried it with 19/32 OSB. While I'll give you that it will be harder to get that same screw out of plywood that is thicker then OSB, I'll also give you that if we were to measure the amount of force needed to pull a screw out of both types of wood with the same thickness, the plywood would be more. How much more is where it gets interesting and where I doubt the difference is significant.

Lots of times, people will overbuild for a variety of reasons. Usually it's a good intention, but in the end, they have just wasted money without any measurable improvement. It's real easy to spend allot of money to build a house, but it's more challenging to build just as strong a house with less money or alternative materials.

Eddie


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FWIW, we run our woodburner 24/7 from late November to mid-March. I average probably 75 pounds per day of wood - that's one big load and one easy load for me, coming inside and going down the stairs to the basement. That adds up to a lot of wood over the Winer, but it is less than the amount I need to cut each year to clean up the fencerows on our farm and our 12 acres of woods each year. I'd be cutting all that wood anyway, albeit not to length, even if I didn't burn it. And Bski has more woods than I do (although Mr. Birder may not be inclined to clean up as much fallen timber; different (axe) strokes for different folks.

I bet Bski ends up keeping a small part of the woodpile (the cleanest, most bugfree stuff) in the garage to stay dry & convenient. I have 3-5 days worth in my garage all the time, rotating with the wood I cut all Winter long.


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Thanks again Eddie. I'm soakin' it in.
This is going to be a weekend place. Maybe a couple of one-weekers during the spring/summer/autumn. Visits in the winter will be less frequent. I know all this because we have already owned a place like this.
All the toys for maintenance will come over time. Right now, after 4 years of arse-busting work to get to this point and NEVER staying overnight, we are ready for a nice little affordable crib that I can build myself. Local ordinance requires 1000 sq ft min living space. That's where I started. No, I'm not married to the design. That's why I'm lettin' you guys look over my shoulder. I'm having some fun and picking up other points of view. In the end, we are going to keep it relatively simple in design. I'm 50 years old. This intial package is meant to be simple, affordable, comfortable for living, and my only digs for the next 10 or 15 years.
There has been alot of focus on "the shop" for Bski. Funny thing, when I built the crib we are living in right now, I said that I was going to build a nice shop in the 1500 sq feet of 9' deep basement below me. I moved in my woodworking basics, ran a few outlets, and started using the tools to build a bunch of other projects. The shop never really came together and I am using about 300 sq ft of the basement. Am I disapointed? Nah. My A.D.D. keeps me movin' along at a pretty good pace. Knowing all this, maintaining 44 ac of unmanaged timber (and the possibility of more ponds therein) will likely facilitate about the same amount of shop completion at LNP also.
Dski and I built a 24 x 36' stick-built 2 story gambrel garage about 10 years ago. It has provided a very similar feel to what we are looking at right now; this one is a little bigger. That's why I have selected the distribution of the living space and garage space. Since I am not looking for the deluxe shop as much as the nice, comfortable living space, my experience with this type of package (along with a similar one in our previous summer home) assures me of what we want. I will admit that there is little likelihood that ag equipment is going to fit into this type of a package due to the height. I am right now tussling with the costs and looks of the same product with 10 ft walls....all as a result of you guys pointing that out to me. Then, another part of me reminds me that we have plenty of room to slap up a pole frame for ag equipment type stuff (flies in the face of my reasoning to not have a pole frame due to resale value, but it's not the principal garage structure). All that doesn't matter right now, though, cuz I don't have the $ to put to that future need. I have a neighbor with all the equipment, and he is reliable and reasonably priced. Besides, 90% of my property is timber anyway; low maint.

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