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Howdy!

New to this site and looking for probably the same answers that many other are. What to do with a new pond. If it has been asnwered a thousand times before, forgive me and give me a link please.

Here's the scenario:
I had an old pond that was roughly 1/2 acre, no fish to speak of in NE TX. It has now been dug out to be 7 acres and approx. 20' deep at it's deepest (the old pond) at pool. I have a few tractor tires and some brush sank already. I didn't think the pond would be ready to be stocked for a good while but 7" of rain this weekend did a nice job of filling it up.

Here is what I want: Crappie, Black Bass, Blue cats and some small panfish.

Here's what was suggested. I would appreciate your input:
-700 bass
-525 black crappie
-1400 channel cat
-1750 hybrid bluegill
-1400 red ear brim
-1750 coppernose bluegill
-70 lbs. of flathead minnows
-70 lbs. flathead minnows

Is this a good combination?

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This is a family pond that will be used for various fishing (sport/food). I like crappie and occasional bass fishing. The kids enjoy perch jerkin'. There will be crappie and cats taken out for food but it will relatively light harvests. I don't plan on eating bass.

This pond will need to be self sustaining as I won't feed.

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Welcome to the forum, Hizzoner!

I'm sure there will be some information forthcoming. I'm not a resident expert on stocking fish in your region, however there are others who have good experience with Texas ponds. Congratulations on your pond AND your rain.

Bruce


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ooo ooo ooo me first!

I am long ways from Texas also but that wont stop me. If this recomendation came from a fish supplier and you told him what your goals were I would be skeptical.

As for the stocking plan:

700 bass (Largemouth I assume) is the highest number generally recommended for 7 acres. It is ok as long as you are willing to harvest LMB when necessary. Of course they will help keep those black crappie in check :rolleyes: Be sure you know what you are buying Northern, F1, or florida.

525 black crappie: Pretty controversial. It adds a wildcard to your management plans. Keep it simple stupid or No guts no glory? Try these posts

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000402#000000
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002275;p=2
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002275

1400 channel cat. Outrageous if you truly plan on "relatively light harvests" These are put and take so put as many as you plan to take in the next few years plus some %. Add a few every once in a while to replace the ones you harvested.


1750 HBG controversial again. Personally, I would stick with regular BG. Lots of posts on this one.

-1400 red ear brim - OK
-1750 coppernose bluegill - OK
-70 lbs. of flathead minnows - I believe this is Fat Heads. OK

Look around the forum. You will see lots of similar posts that address your questions. Really research the hybrid BG and Black crappie. If you like diversity, you may want to take a look at Hybrid striped bass. They are relatively safe to stock and have a lot of cheerleaders on this site.

Good Luck.

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You haven't said what your goals are. However, good fishing seems to be everyones.

Looking for big bass?

That's an awful lot of catfish unless you really enjoy catching and eating a lot of cats.

Crappie are a real question mark. Most biologists say it's not a matter of if, but when they overpopulate and stunt. Not recommended for water holes of less than 25+ acres.

The hybrid bluegill offer nothing that plain bluegill don't. They are not true hybrids but will have a limited spawn. Lousy idea.

1400 Redear is about right.

1750 coppernose is woefully inadequate. You need about 800 per acre. They are the future backbone of your forage base. Figure on 8,000.

The fatheads are about right.

700 bass is OK. However, wait a year after forage stocking before you add predators, either bass or cats. This gives your forage base an opportunity to go forth and multiply. If you want big bass, stock 50 per acre. Trust me, you will have to cull.

You said blue cats but didn't show a number for them. Those suckers get huge and a big one can pretty well mop up on your biggest bass and your channel cats. They have some fans here but not many.

I would seriously question whoever recommended this mess. You don't have anywhere enough bluegill forage to support a pond this size. Jayman is being nice when he says skeptical.

BTW, we never get tired of it. We're junkies.

Run, Forrest, Run!!


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Howdy, Mr. Mayor \:\)

Your stocking plan can be argued to have 3 (possibly 4) goals which are commonly seen as mutually exclusive:

1) Bass
2) Crappie
3) (Blue and/or Channel) Catfish
4) Bream

If there's a Texan (or the resident of any less fortunate state) for whom "fishing for bass" doesn't mean "fishing for BIG bass," I don't believe they post here. As you may have surmised from other threads, bass size tends to vary in reverse proportion to bass numbers, bream size tends to vary in reverse proportion to bream numbers, and the quality of bass and bream fishing tend to vary in reverse proportion to each other. IOW you can have a few big bass and a lot of small bream, a few big bream and a lot of small bass, or some situation on a sliding scale in between.

With 7 acres, I think I'd try to balance sort of in the middle, bass versus bream priority wise, knowing that this much water would let me have some big fish of both varieties.

1400 CC is a LOT of catfish, unless you want to concentrate on catfish. Just about any number of Blue Cats is a LOT of catfish, considering the size and predatory abilities they can achieve. Probably anything much over 100 BC (Bob Lusk and some other folks would have a very good idea of exact numbers, I think) WILL dominate your 7 acre pond, much to the chagrin of what most of us consider big bass (the BC will just consider them lunch ).

Crappie, as noted above, are very problematical in small (under 3 digit acreage) bodies of water. The above linked threads will give you a good idea of the "state of discussion" on Crappie management. Several very talented people here are trying to find a way to successfully and repeatedly manage Crappie over the long haul. Stay tuned for more information.

I personal feel the best route for a dedicated Crappie fan stocking a new lake to follow is A) establish a good forage base, B) develop a healthy population of LMB of diverse sizes, and C) pray that someone figures out how to manage Crappie while A) and B) are taking place :rolleyes: . If that doesn't happen, stock a relatively small number of Crappie and keep your fingers crossed.

Based on my own thoughts and the above stated advice of DD1 (on Texas Bass/bream numbers), I would stock:

350-700 LMB (say 550 for a compromise)
3500 CNBG
3500 native BG (and may the best strain win)
350 CC
NO BC (if you must, replace 50 CC with 50 BC)
1500 RES
70 lbs FHMinnows
200 Black Crappie after 3-4 years, unless a proven Crappie option is developed, in which case follow it (but it's your renovation expense if you bet this way and Crappie out ;\) ).

As DD said, we never (collectively, sometimes one or two of us take a day off) get tired of it. If the same question has been asked 1000 times, it's never been asked for the same size and location body of water, with the same goals, on the same day (we hope we give better answer as time goes by; they are at least different answers).


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You could follow Theo's stocking recomendations, cut out the bass completely and replace them with bluecats If you want a trophy catfish lake. \:\) Yes that would be my plan! Who needs those old bass. They will never be in my pond. \:D


Please no more rain for a month! :|
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Wow, I appreciate the hopsitality. I must apologize, I had brain fart and put blue cat instead of channel. I do not plan on adding blues....especially if the are going to be problematic.

The ultimate goal would be to have a healthy bass population...one that would sustain some 5+ lb. fish, a few catfish (as these will be fished the least) and a nice crappie population that could be harvested for food. The smaller blue gills and such are somehat optional as the younger kids enjoy the action but do not fish much.

So with that said what would you fellers recommend for this summary goal:
-healthy 5+ lb. bass population (catch and release)
-slab crappie for consumption
-catfish for occasional consumption
-other panfish as pond allows.

I could nearly delete all catfish if it was a problem to the others

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********Howdy, Mr. Mayor **********
actually, Theo, it would be Mr. President...but your acknowledgement makes me glad to see another duck hunter aboard here

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1. I think 5+ lb bass is a fine goal for your location and pond. With a little management, you can probably gow them even larger.

2. Slab crappie- it has not been done consistantly in ponds your size. You are welcome to try it of course, but you have to know the considerable risk you are taking. Also since crappie and intermediate bass compete for the same food items, goal #1 and goal #2 are directly opposed. In my opinion, a successfull crappie pond is such a difficult goal to achieve that you have to focus 100% of your efforts to it. In other words, your bass population would simply be used as a tool to help manage your crappie.

3. a few channel catfish should be no problem and wont stop you from achieving your other goals

4. Other panfish. Wether you want to fish for them or not you need a healthy population of forage fish in order to sustain your predators. Of course if you are going to attempt the crappie pond (no pun intended) everything would need to be reevaluated.

Once you make a firm decision (to crappie or not to crappie) let us know and I am sure everyone will be happy to offer specific advise.

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Duck Hunter? Where?

I will stick with my above numbers, relieved by the removal of Blue Cats and still kind of apprehensive about Crappie (but it IS your nickel).

You can definitely have CC with 5 lbs LMB, but as to the numbers - stock as many CC as you think you will want to remove over, say, a three year period. Restocking with large CC (to avoid predation) is about as cheap as big pond fish can be; better to go low than high on the CC numbers.


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"actually, Theo, it would be Mr. President"
Would this be the infamous Mr. President that corrupted his son-in-law,Gordan MacQuarrie?
Mike

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sho nuff.....I am a Macquarrie fan as you can tell

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Me too,although Ruark is prob. my favorite.I too,am a degenerate duck hunter.
Sorry to get off topic here.
Mike

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OK, after some rethinking, I am prone to giving crappie a shot. If I take bass and catfish out of the equation, as far as wanting to fish for them, what would you guys recommend I stock? it looks like this pond is more like 10 acres when full with it's deepest point (an older pond) being roughly 20' deep. Secondly, what would be the best time of year to do this?

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Then on top of that I would like to know when I should start taking crappie out and at what rate?

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 Quote:
Originally posted by JayMan:
Once you make a firm decision (to crappie or not to crappie) let us know and I am sure everyone will be happy to offer specific advise.
Hmmm... perhaps I was wrong?

I think I would recommend starting with the general bass bluegill pond stocking plan. Assuming 10 acres lets say, 500-1000 BG/acre stocked ASAP with 750 LMB to follow. The year after the first LMB spawn, try stocking 300 adult black crappie (note we often call them calico bass up here so forgive me if I slip up from time to time). I would not add any other forage species.

Now it starts getting real interesting. You want to ensure some LMB recruitment so I would think shallow water structure would be a must. You also want to ensure efficient predation of young and intermediate black crappie to guard against overpopulation. Relatively clear water may help.

Your harvests will be influenced by the amount of crappie recruitment so measurement by seining and fishing will be vital. Crappie reproduction does not seem to be real reliable so harvests may vary from year to year. For example, if you have very few or no small crappie, you will want to allow some bass to be harvested. A slot limit could be implemented to ensure there are adequate crappie predators. As long as there is some recruitment, harvest a some mature crappie as well. This is what you hope for. If you have lots of young crappie, you will need to severely limit LMB harvests, increase crappie harvests and begin to panic. The nightmare scenario is lots of young crappie and few or no young LMB. Remember, if anything gets out of wack (crappie or LMB) it will be real challenging to manage your way out of it by harvesting. A 10 acre pond can produce an awful lot of fish.

Here is the discussion part of the thesis. From my observations of LMB, it is hard to believe that anything smaller can overpopulate in a pond with a "healthy" (healthy does not mean trophy in this case) LMB population. Yet crappie have this reputation. Why do calicos succeed where SMB,BG,RE,BullHead, GS, and other species can not? Is it fecundity, or spawn timing? Perhaps it is their behavior. Crappie will seek out deeper water in the summer and are fairly active all year. This behavior differs somewhat from that of LMB. Or maybe it is just too difficult for the average pond owner to manage this many variables?

I admire your bravery. Keep us informed.

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To help with the crappie, you will need plenty of spawning and hiding structure for minnows in the shallows. Catch and release your biggest bass, and eat the 2-3 pounders if you must. Never throw bluegill back, especially the small ones. That will put more predator pressure on the small crappie. And of course, never throw back the small crappie. I know it sounds wasteful, but throwing some of them away beats all of them being stunted.

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JayMan said:
 Quote:
Here is the discussion part of the thesis. From my observations of LMB, it is hard to believe that anything smaller can overpopulate in a pond with a "healthy" (healthy does not mean trophy in this case) LMB population. Yet crappie have this reputation. Why do calicos succeed where SMB,BG,RE,BullHead, GS, and other species can not? Is it fecundity, or spawn timing? Perhaps it is their behavior. Crappie will seek out deeper water in the summer and are fairly active all year. This behavior differs somewhat from that of LMB. Or maybe it is just too difficult for the average pond owner to manage this many variables?
I think a lot of it is that early spawning. On the years when that erratic early Crappie spawn succeeds big time, there are hordes of small Crappie with mouths big enough to eat every kind of fry and fingerling that follow them, including the LMB. Think of the consequences when this manages to occur several years in a row.

Perhaps this is why good Crappie ponds occur occasionally. Luck of the draw, with the odds stacked right for that pond. Local conditions and weather cause the Crappie spawn to succeed just often enough that neither the Crappie nor the LMB are overwhelmed. I remember reading a report on a large lake known for good Crappies which seemed to have a good year class of them about 1 year in 3. I've no idea if this would be an optimum Crappie spawn success rate, especially in ponds.


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To try to add to what Theo said above...

In a past discussion of the relative merits of crappie for small ponds, Bob Lusk introduced the concept of the unpredictability of the crappie spawn...one year small numbers, another year huge numbers. Unpredictable. To me, that is a critical aspect of the discussion. It would seem to be almost impossible to adjust predators based on this unpredictability, leaving success largely to chance.

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 Quote:
I remember reading a report on a large lake known for good Crappies which seemed to have a good year class of them about 1 year in 3. [/QB]
The problem is, that's all it would take to get overrun!

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I think that HSB would be better at controling the Crappie, since they are both open water fish. Or better yet LB for the shallows and HSB for the open water.


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Concerning ealong's point maybe he has something. The HSB is relatively new to ponds on the forum anyone with an HSB/Crappie mix? Are the HSB more active through the cooler parts of the year than the LMB?


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We discussed (no personally experienced posters, IIRC) controlling Crappie with HSB, even adjusting the HSB numbers to try and follow the Crappie spawn variation (sort of a managed Lemmings-Arctic Fox cycle, only staying ahead of the curve). ML pointed out (correct me if I'm wrong, 'Lark) the biggest difficulty might be getting info on the size of the Crappie spawn in time to jump your HSB numbers.


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