Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Gizzard Shad

I'm thinking of adding both Talapia and Gizzard Shad to my 13 acre pond(East Texas) next spring. I'm concerned that the bass(10-12" and one spawn 3-5 ") and HSB (8-10") will have an expensive snack. I assume it's unlikely that the Talapia are available in larger sizes than 2-4 inches, but does anyone know if the Gizzard Shad are sold in 6 inch plus size and what are the price ranges? I'm looking to create a trophy bass lake and am not concern if the bream/bass spawn are adversely affected as long as I enhance the forage. I've already stocked threadfins twice and am not sure they've survived. Also am I stocking the shad too soon and perhaps I should wait until my preditors are larger? Whats the growth rate for Gizzard shad in a unfertilized pond? Thanks for any help ?

I was able to get Tilapia that were in the 8" range. My thinking is that with a pond that is larger like ours fewer big ones are better than lots of smaller ones. Survival rates will be higher and spawn sooner than the smaller ones that will become snacks. It might take a little longer to get the full benefit but saves a lot of money on the front end. When I add gizzards I will use the same process.

ML will surely have more info that may be of help to you since he is located closer to you.

TEXAS715,

I agree with you generally about stocking larger forage fish to avoid predation, except when it comes to Tilapia. I don't have any specific data, but just by close observation, Tilapia seem to have a high survival rate on initial stockings. A 4 inch or even 3 inch Tilapia will begin spawning immediately, if conditions are right. Two 4 inch Tilapia will produce more offspring than one 8 inch Tilapia, assuming the 4 inchers survive.

I could be totally wrong on this, but it doesn't bother me to get the small Tilapia. It may be that they are so prolific, it doesn't matter anyway. One thing, an 8 inch Tilapia should be one heck of a fish by fall. I had a few of those also this spring in my stocking and am looking forward to catching one in another month or so. I'm expecting 3 pounds out of them.

LakeL,

Personally, I would wait another growing season on the gizzards. You need larger predators to keep them in check. If you are stocking Tilapia, along with a BG and threadfin base, you should be fine for another season, IMHO.

LakeL,

If you really want to supercharge your predator growth, consider stocking small rainbow trout in the fall, probably next fall based on the size of your predators. I'm going to try that this year, primarily for the fun of catching them on a fly rod and eating them, but they also provide super forage for your larger predators. The largest LMB (over 20 pounds) caught the last few years have come from Calif. lakes which have rainbow trout.

Thanks guys will likely wait another year for the gizzard shad...........and double my order of Talapia from Todd to 10 pounds/acre.

LakeL :

I think ML's idea of using some RBT for a cold water substitute (or addition) to your warm water TS and tilapia is a good idea. They should compliment each other very well over the course of a year so that you will always have an extra forage source. Based on my memory of your plan I think golden shiners would be a better addition to the plan than gizzard shad . Send me a PM or email with an address or fax # and I will send you some info to consider. ewest

Thanks ML and Ewest...........I might wait until next winter to try the rainbow trout...........darn east Texas drought has kept my lake from filling.it still needs 5-6 feet to fill, but just the same would like any info you have. I also threw in a bag of golden shinners a year ago and had seine up a few in last time, so I feel confident they are doing well........thanks.........zzzhouston@hotmail.com

ML

I went with the larger tilapia because I had a large number of LMB and very low forage base. Hence, I needed something that I knew would survive. This has really helped and all bream have bounced back with revenge since the introduction of tilapia. It took the pressure off without having to restock them.

I have had little success catching the tilapia but the ones I have caught have been 15-18" and over 5lbs. That will put your fly rod to the test.

TEXAS715,

Like I said I'm probably wrong about the small Tilapia.

I got what sounds like a good tip from a very good fisherman who catches Tilapia out of the drainage canals around Houston. I'm going to try it...he said soak canned corn in almond extract...swears it will work, but I don't know. It might if the BG won't get it first.

I hate to be redundant, but, cabbage is a sure fire bait for tilapia, for me, works every time, roll it like a cigarette paper and cast to them. They eat most any vegetable or fruit, pineapple and grapes are killers. They eat corn, but it does not float. They are a good if you can seeum you can catchum fish. You fly guys should have a field day with a small bit of vegetable, if it is bite size the tilapia take the whole piece. My problem is that some times I can't cast far enough with the small size needed, I attended the Lash La Rue School of Fly Casting, so I use a spinning rod.
I have been feeding with veggies since they were about 8". Just use about anything in the crisper drawer of your fridge.

Don't they share a campus with the Buster Keaton Institute of Waterfowling?

Hope I don't change the subject on this thread. But I really like the idea of adding rainbow trout during the cold months for two reasons! Trout are great for the plate during colder water temps that support them. Second, Just like the shad and tilapia that die off and make for easy pickings for predators in the winter when water temps drop. Any left over Trout make for easy pickings (high in protein to grow giant bass) during the warmest months. Just my $.02 Plus with supplemental feeding the trout can grow pretty big in a year, from what I've learned from the experts on this site.

bassandgrass,

If it ever starts cooling off, the rainbows will arrive. Yes, its the very same principal that I have used with Tilapia, except there is no reproduction and no algae and pond cleaning benefits. I can't wait to trout fish on an East Texas pond....seems almost an impossible dream.

Under this approach, the pond will have year around forage supplemental to the BG. Should result in better predator growth and better top end BG growth.

So would the ultimate LMB water be one that was warm enough to support Tilapia in the summer, but then has temps that drop low enough to support trout in the winter? The bass would have a banquet in both the spring and fall when changing temps rendered Trout/Tilapia lethargic sitting ducks.

Interesting question. Seems like both prey species would be able to move pellet biomass through to the LMB. I'd think the classic theory of ten pounds of prey to one pound of LMB biomass added wouldn't entirely apply if the LMB didn't have to work very hard to capture prey.

John Boat & LBuck :

The type of water/envior. you are talking about( year round growth and feeding by LMB) exists in 2 places in the US- centeral-south Florida and south Calif. resv. Both have year roung growing seasons for LMB and tons of forage either natural or stocked. Temps. vary but never get cold enough water temps. to slow bass metabolisms much . Is there any doubt why those 2 states grow lots of very big LMB. ewest

To further LBuck's question a little, how much of a boost would LMB get by having sluggish, disoriented prey twice a year (trout in the late Spring/early Summer, tilapia in late Fall/early Winter)? I believe the tilapia die-off coincides well with the LMB pre-Winter gorging period, but how does the trout expiration temp range match up with LMB pre-spawn/post-spawn feeding habits?

This combination of seasonal supplemental forage stocking strikes me as having a huge potential - like the improvement in Football team performance when they stopped expecting players to play both offense and defense for 60 minutes, letting them perfect one and rest for part of the game.

Ask the question again next spring because it is exactly what I am doing. I'll have actual experience to report by next spring. I'm thinking of more of a boost to the HSB, but LMB also. I learned from a TP&W person that HSB really feast on small trout where they are introduced through the Texas "put and take" trout fishing program.

Theo and ML :

How about twice as much? Comments on fall tilapia and LMB stocking up for winter are dead on. I think also (depending on exact timing of LMB spawn) the same would be the case for late spring RT forage which would be just right. At the first of the post spawn period ( here april-may) the LMB are under 3 conditions that I think make the timing perfect. First as the water temps. pick up so does LMB metabolism ( their biology requires more food). Second they are opportunity feeders and take the easy prey in the right size class first (efficient feeders). Third at post spawn they have used up most of their stored energy supplies and need to eat quick to survive to spawn again next year. All three are genetic/biologic driven factors with I think high priority. That is why I made my first post dated 9-15-05 complimenting ML. I have read articles out of south Calif. describing the feeding frenzy that occurs when the hatchery trucks back up and release 10in. RT into the water where the LMB are waiting just offshore. These hatchery raised young fish with no exposure to predators are like cold tilapia or hot RT , easy pickings for LMB. ewest

ML

A pond managed by the State near me has unitenasoinly run a similar experiment. They stocked a 5-acre pond with BG and LMB and made it catch and release only. The first four years things went ok with lots of small/medium sized bass, so catch rates were good but size was not. The State also stocks broke trout in the pond in the fall and several times in the spring. A few privet organizations are allowed to stock Rainbow/Bookies for Kids fishing derby’s 2 or 3 times a year. For the first four years there were no Bass large enough to take advantage of the trout. Then bang! The largest bass reported jumped from three pounds to six pounds in a year. Catch rates have dropped with is too bad since it is a public pond aimed at youth, handicapped, and Sr. fishing. However some lucky kid now has a shot at catching a trophy fish.
The trout are put and take so this year there is plans to try and monitor how many go in versus how many are taken out by anglers. There will be no way to get exact numbers but it might give a idea of what percentage of stocked trout are falling victim to bucket mouths.

JB,

Thanks for your post. Interesting info. My trout are now scheduled for early December arrival.

ML :

In celebration of the soon to arrive R trout please see the site below which I found interesting . It covers R trout from soup to nuts . I think you may need this info. ewest

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/7182696-224fs.pdf

There are several more fact sheets on RT listed on the following page.

http://srac.tamu.edu/fulllist.cfm

Good to see you back.

ML,

You may have already answered this question...sorry if you have.

Where are you getting your trout, how many, and what are you paying, including freight...if you don't mind...you can email me if it's confidential. I'm thinking about that market.

Thanks

Todd,

Not confidential and I'm glad to share with you or anyone else interested.

I'm dealing with Crystal Lake Fisheries out of Ava, Missouri...the home town of my Mother and many aunts, uncles, etc.

How many RT?...depends on personal needs but I'm going for about 60 pounds per acre. I'm interested in fishing, food (for humans) and food (for predators). They recommend a mixture of sizes for that objective with 7 to 9 inch for medium predators and 8 to 10 inch for larger predators and 10 to 12 inch for us human predators. I'll get a mixture of all three sizes. The costs run from $4 per pound for the larger sizes to $4.50 per pound for the smaller sizes. Delivered directly to the pond.

They say they have seen great success in weight gains on predators (fish not humans) from the few people who have tried this.

Once again, I'm trying something few have done before, but the worst that can happen is that I have to catch and eat all those pounds of RT before they die next March...and Tilapia take their place. I believe it is possible, on the positive side, that this combination of Tilapia and RT could very well produce some surprising results in predator growth.

By the way, for the Pond Boss "tried and true" slammers and flamers, I'm not recommending this approach to anyone, I'm just answering Todd's question. Thanks.

Your project with the Rainbows sounds great, ML.

Just to jab at you, however, the trout approach is "tried and true" for big LMB, as you know, for the southern CA lakes. I have a magazine with an in depth description of those lakes which I'll have to recheck, but most of the lakes are small (less than 50 acres).

What will also be interesting is to see if your LMB "instinctively" know that the trout are a nice, fatty, high protein meal.