Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site 404 Permit

Long time lurker, first post.
Has anyone ever succesfully received a pemit to build a pond on property designated Wetlands ?
If so, would you please pass on any helpful tips and or advice.

Hello, Tsans, and welcome to the Light Side. I was wondering if that was you lurking out there.

Dale Hall, U.S. Director of Fish & Wildlife, gave a pretty interesting talk at the Pond Boss Conference in Arlington earlier this month which (IIRC) included tips on such permit applications. IIRC, one thing he mentioned was to emphasize the positive aspects your pond will have on wetland wildlife on your application. Stuff like how it will provide sanctuary for migrating waterfowl, etc. You may also want to consider including specific wetland features in the pond or along with it in your project - like a specific (silt-filtering, for the good of your pond) wetland area above the pond which will match or exceed the area of the wetland which will be getting "too wet" to count as a wetland anymore. Mr. Hall stated that you want to do a real good, intricate job on your application - most pond-owners would likely be ahead to have professional help from a wildlife/pond biologist or other professional experienced in the field.

Who else remembers tips from Mr. Hall's talk or has other ideas for Tsans?

I think that Theo covered most all of Dale's presentation; at least as much as I can recall.
During my quest for the right "pondable" property, I got half-serious about a parcel that was very close to a creek. I started with the NRCS office. They looked over the maps and advised that the proposed pond might very well encroach into a wetlands area adjacent to the creek. They told me that the next step would be to (drumroll, please)......contact the Army Corp of Engineers. I did.
It wasn't unpleasant, but quite educational. I recall my overall reaction as "wow, now there's a bunch of hoops to jump thru". The highpoints that I can recall:
a) wetlands are not necessarily areas that are specifically wet, whether it be all the time or even part of the time. They are more accurately defined by soil hydrology. It gets kinda nerdy complicated, having to do with moisture content, blah, blah. Soils maps will show some indication and an on-site, current sampling would have to be performed.
b) the project would have to be reviewed and approved by they ACoE
c) the owner would have to mitigate the wetlands loss by providing an equal conservation improvement elsewhere, whether it be his own land or improving government land. Yeah, there was some kinda programs available where an individual could provide funding to improve somebody else's property as wetland loss mitigation.

No expert here but believe there is still a variance permit available if your pond does impact more than an acre of wetland. You stil have to prove that is the case. Also yes wetland mitigation banking is popular here in GA. DOT cuts road right thru wetlands they then have to buy wetland credits in the same territory. The wetlands are protected with easement for a lifetime and price negotiable but they can be a great money maker for the landowner. However don't get too excited to start creatging wetlands it has to be done profesionally and monitored, lots of money up front. Complicated but not a bad system.

Brett, if your not impacting but a small wetland you should look into this variance permit.

Tsans Theo is 100% correct on Dales comments in application explain how you plan to improve the land not that you want to rid of the wetland. And Yes clients build ponds all the time that impact wetlands and its approved but depends on local supervisor.

Dale said you are dealing with individual not the core. He is right problem is many of them make it near impossible to build a pond if that is their goal, others are understanding and do what they job should be protecting our sensitive environment.

Hi Tsans, welcome to Pond Boss. Great first post!

Now I'm lurking.
Keeping a low profile.
Outta sight...outta mind

Tsans,
Jersey is sending out ultra low resonance vibes that are designed to intercept thought waves generated by the governmental permitting process. This fascinating mental ability has been honed into a radar system designed specifically to protect pondmeisters from undue governmental harm. If your fingers are tingling or you feel an extreme gluteal burning sensation, you have likely picked up the alpha wavelength. You might do well to send him a private message to see if you are on his radar.

Tsans claims his location to be "a safe secure location".
I'd suggest he keep it that way.
Don't wake the big dog.
Wooooo.
Feel the vibes?

Jersey, are you ever going to tell the story?

I know the story Sunil. If jersey does not chime in I will start the bidding for the details at $2.

Ok, I bid $2.00 then. I wanna hear the story. If photos are included I'll up my bid to $2.05.

I don't think I signed the proper paperwrok to repeat the story. Hopefully he will pm those interested. It is a good lesson in politics and how to work the system.

Actually I told most of the story in another thread. The county said NO pond without a formal plan stamped by a P.E. So almost $6000 later, I gave them the formal plan. Then they said, OK now all you you need is the OK from the NRCS and ACoE.

So now, feeling like Dorothy when the wizard told her to get the broomstick from the Wicked Witch, I went down the yellow brick road to get help from the government. They are here to help us, aren't they?

The NRCS said they could only help me if the pond was there to support livestock. I said, how much livestock? He said more than a water trough could support. I said, how much is that? He said, I don't know, but it would be a lot. Thanks and have a nice day.

The ACoE said NO. Just NO. I asked why? Quit asking questions because the answer is NO. But what if I....? NO. NO. NO.

I went back to my high-dollar P.E. and asked him what to do. He said he didn't really know, but if it were him, he'd call his congressman. I sat on this idea for a while, figuring that it was just a waste of time. But having nowhere else to turn. I called my ole buddy the congressman.

Turns out he didn't live too terribly far from me, and he stopped by to see what I wanted to do. When he saw my property and the plan, he said that it would be wrong to NOT build the pond. He said he had a head-honcho buddy in the ACoE and would invite him to lunch when he was in Washington. I thanked him profusely.

Time passed. Then some more time passed. Then the letter in the fancy US House of Representatives envelope showed up in the mailbox. He said that he had met with his buddy and that I should go ahead and build the pond, as long as it is under 10 acres (It is) and does not affect a wetland (it doesn't).

I called him and thanked him profusely again and invited him to stop by and fish anytime he wanted. Unfortunately, we lost him to a long illness just a few weeks after he did this for me. As much as the help he gave me for building the pond, I remember him for restoring a bit of faith in a small part of our government system.

So I took the $6000 plan and the letter on the fancy letterhead back to the county and offered them $700 for the "land disturbance permit". (And all this time, I thought it was MY land) The county guy said that he didn't think he would be able to OK this project after all. I reminded him, loudly, that he promised me that he would approve my request if I did all of the things I have now done. Kind of sounds like Dorothy again, doesn't it? He said, you know, I'm going to retire in a couple of months. I really shouldn't do this, but I'm going to approve your permit. And he did.

So there you go. If I ever build another pond, I'll do it quietly. I couldn't take that route this time because my neighbor and I were building our houses, and had county inspectors running around all the time. There was more luck than skill in me getting the OK to build this pond.

I must have missed where you told us the story before Jersey...my fault.

But I don't agree with your last sentence! There was no luck in it at all. You got your congressman involved, and he took care of it.

In the end, I wonder if you would have ever needed to spend the $6K on the P.E. if the congressman had been involved from the start.

At any rate, your place is awesome.

Thanks, Sunil. It is really pretty now that I got the bank around the whole pond hydroseeded with Bermuda. I need to get a picture soon. Grass never looks as good as it does the 1st year. I'll try to post it soon.

IIRC'Dale also mentioned that you should go into the office and introduce yourself and try to establish some sort of relationship with the people you are dealing with in that office.To get on a friendly basis with them to help get them on your side.On the other hand,maybe I just dreamed that up while drinking beer in the lobby with JHAP while warming up the GSA deathstar

Probably, between beer and Captain and Coke my lobby day dreaming was quite vivid as well.


Oh and Greg I owe you two bucks.