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#124206 07/07/08 04:06 PM
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Hello All,

We have a 52 acres parcel in WV with an existing farm pond about a quarter acre in size. It's fairly nice although shallow - max depth about 5.5 feet, and therefore gets overgrown with weeds. It's fed by a spring that flows constantly in dry weather or wet, with a max rate of perhaps 30 gallons a minute (Estimate - I'll check this next time I'm up.) The feed is primarily thru a 2 inch PVC overflow off a thousand gallon cistern, but during especially wet weather there is general seepage from the spring as well. It presently has a single rusted metal overflow pipe - about 10 inches - that dumps the water down the back of the dam.

We're having the pond dug deeper and also expanded, and at long last construction is supposed to start in September - yippee! I've strung some level lines and done some measuring, and I calculate we can easily increase the depth to 12 feet by moving the damn further downhill (as we're doing. The new pond will be around 3/4 acre. I'd go even larger but there's a boundary line downstream I need to stay clear of. (Yes - pictures forthcoming!)

I've been doing quite a bit of research since coming across this awesome site. Based on what I've read I think we'll want to use a "conventional" drain system. I'm guessing perhaps a 10 or 12 inch riser pipe with either a trash rack or - as some have suggested - enclosing the riser with a larger diameter pipe, thus pulling the water from near the bottom.

I've looked at the diagrams for the conventional draining system and have a couple questions:
* Any thoughts on the pipe size? 10 inch may be overkill, but I figure better safe than sorry, plus that's what the current drain is.
* Should the diameter of the riser pipe be the same as the thru-dam pipe? I'm gather that it's often different. Is there a formula or guideline for this?
* Likewise, the section of pipe that leaves the riser T and continues towards the slide gate valve (used to drain the pond): can this be a smaller diameter? Technically I think a 4-inch would suffice, as I've already got the current supply diverted into one in preparation for the work. Besides, I'm thinking that draining the pond is not an activity I'd do very often.
* Any thoughts about the trash rack vs. "sleeve" technique?

Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to posting our progress as we swing into gear!

- Jeff

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Greetings, Jeff, and welcome to the forum.

Any watershed draining into the pond in addition to the spring flow? If so, what's in the watershed (woods, plowed fields, grass, etc.)?


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If your building a stand pipe I think they are the same dia. If your building a drop structure the riser is generally 2:1 ratio to the barrel or pipe.



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Another Jeff! Hi Jeff, I just wanted to say welcome to Pond Boss, we're glad ya found us.


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Hi Theo, Rockytopper, and the "other Jeff". (Or I guess that's me..!)

Theo, on the watershed question, there is a certain amount of rainwater that occurs naturally, but I would not judge this to be significant. I've been there during some pretty good rainfalls and haven't noticed much water running into the pond. Uphill from it is a grassy area, with the spring and cistern coming after that, about 100 feet above (and 6-8 feet higher than) the pond. Incidentally, I plan to create a beach area on the upper end of the pond that slopes gradually into the water until it reaches a retaining wall at about 3 foot depth, which I'll create using landscaping blocks. (In ancient times I used to be a mason.) I want a 2-3 foot dropoff on the other side of this wall, and I'll string a line across the pond at that point with some floats like you'd see in a swimming pool. If I can figure out how to upload a .jpg I'll do a rough drawing. I'm guessing I'll have to drain a few feet of water each spring to rake out the "beach area", so I've been reading up on a few installations where a secondary drain was added for maintenance.

Rocky, ya got me - I'm not sure what the difference is. I've been looking at diagrams such as this: Conventional System, plus I've been reading what several others have done and looking at the pictures. In particular I noted one installation that used an 8 inch riser with a 6 inch drainpipe, all PVC, where the pertinant info seemed consistent with mine.

I'm going to try to get up there (we live 200 miles away, in MD) in the next 8-10 days and take some pictures and measure the water flow. Prior to coming across this site I've mainly been trying like all getout (since last year) to find somebody to do the work. The guy I've finally found runs an excavating business and has put in many ponds and had good references, but he's asked me to obtain the drainpipes. Once I have more accurate information I'll repost along with the pictures.

- Jeff

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Jeff, what you have shown in the diagram is a drop structure. A stand pipe riser is located on the back side of the dam and it's height is equal to the height of the pond and pool level. From your description of water shed I would not think you need a very big pipe for the over flow. A 6 inch pipe is much cheaper than a 12 inch when using pvc. A 4 inch is even cheaper. Unless you really think you'll drain down the pond often the most economic method would be to just run a pipe straight thru the dam sloping from pool elevation to the ground level at the back of the dam toe. Good Luck.

Last edited by rockytopper; 07/09/08 12:30 PM.


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Jeff

good to have you with us. it sounds like you are going to have some fun. You are doing your homework and that will guarantee a good job. The pipe is not the place to save money unless you have a good grass spillway to handle any extra water.. SEND PICTURES AND KEE US POSTED. One Question are you planing to install the pipe yourself.
.
OTTO

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Hi Guys,

Rocky - sounds interesting and I'll investigate that approach. I'm kind of fixated on being able to drain the pond down a few feet periodically. As I mentioned I do want to police up the beach area at least annually (after all I just had my first grandchild today - a boy - and we've got a lot of memories to start building together up there). I figure the sand will have a natural tendancy to slide downhill and build up against the wall, causing me to rake it back periodically.

Otto - I'm very excited about this. I've wanted a place in the mountains since I was a kid. We just bought it about 3 years ago, and now to think about having my own pond is just amazing. I wasn't planning on doing the installation myself, but instead draw up a plan and run it by Bill - my excavator - for his thoughts. I did figure out how to get a picture to show up finally on these threads, so I'll bring the camera up with me next time I go. We had a few pond pictures but can't figure out where we put them.

Anyway guys, now that I have a better idea of what's going on, what I think makes sense is for me to take an accurate reading of my proposed water depth at the deep end (against the dam), by projecting a level line from the current pond surface and measuring down to ground level where the new dam will be built, further downhill from where it is now. From what I've read on this site, once I know the depth I should allow a couple more feet to the top of the dam, then figure the top to be 8 feet across, then use a 3:1 slope down from the top on each side to estimate width at the base. This will let me calculate how long the drain pipe should be. Am I on the right track? I also want to get a more precise reading on the water volume coming in to have a good notion on the drain size. Now would be a great time to go up & check this as it's been raining like I've never seen this year. We went up for a 10 day vacation over the 4th and it rained every single day but one - the ground couldn't have been any wetter.

Anyway right now I'm really focused on laying everything out and ordering all the stuff I'll need. Once I'm comfortable with that I want to spend some time researching options for how I should stock it. I'm not a fanatical fisherman but I enjoy it and so do my wife and kids, not to mention the neighbors up there who sneak in when we're not around! First & foremost I want to have something nice for swimming, secondly for fishing, and lastly we can ice skate on it in the winter (it's at about 2,800 foot elevation). Sort of an all season/all purpose thing, eh?

- Jeff

Jeff in WV #124552 07/10/08 09:45 AM
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Hi Guys,

OK, here is what I'm starting with. This is the existing old farm pond. The circular concrete structure in the foreground is an old water trough. It gets its feed through a 3/4 inch plastic supply coming from the afore-mentioned spring/cistern, which from this angle would be behind you and to the left - perhaps 100 feet up the hill. You can see the old drain pipe on the other side of the pond. The bank on the other side of the drain drops down a good 12 feet, and that is where I want to do most of the expansion, along with the area directly across from where you are looking.


Here is a closeup of the water trough. It's six feet across and about 32 inches deep, and COLD AS ALL GET OUT! Your hand gets numb if you leave it in the water very long. Yes, I had a few beers and felt bold enough to submerge myself in it - ouch!



This is the overflow pipe that drains the water trough above into the pond. This picture was taken during a dry summer, and as you can see the water just keeps on coming. There is actually another overflow pipe (2 inches - not shown) from the spring/cistern and it also flows continually. However both pipes originate from the exact same source - the spring/cistern.



Lastly, in case you're curious about the property in general, this was taken in the fall shortly after we bought the property. We're located near the aptly-named Mt. Storm WV, and it sits at about 2,800 foot elevation.



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jeff you have a very nice piece of land and i hope everthing works out for you.

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Jeff that is indeed awesome, I'm envious of that crystal clear spring water. You mentioned the trough was cold. I assume the pond is also. You mentioned having a swimming hole. In my neck of the woods cold is a good thing especially this time of year.



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Great pics. Dont fall of the form now. I would like to see more of the pics

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Hi Everyone,

Sorry I went "dark" for a couple weeks - I had an uncle pass away and spent a week escorting my parents to & from Massachusetts.

We're only about a month away! Since my last post I went up with my 14 year old son and we spent a day measuring dimensions & water flow, marking the proposed new boundaries, and some clearing. I created a rough drawing and will post it below.

I spoke to Billy - the guy who will be doing the excavating - and he recommends a 10 or 12 inch drain pipe, installed such that it starts at the water line on the inside and angles downwards on the backside of the dam. He wants 40 feet. I told him I wanted to add a drain for maintenance and he's OK with that. He recommends 4 inch schedule 40 PVC, about 80 feet long so it extends out into the pond. I plan on putting a 90 to raise it up off the bottom a foot or two so the silt won't fill it up.

I've been agonizing on what type of cutoff valve to use on the 4 inch pipe. They have SO many choices - butterfly valves, knife/gate valves, ball valves, and more. I'm leaning towards the knife gate. At any rate, it's very hard to determine what applications are best suited for what type of valve, and many websites don't show specs such as manufacturer or pressure rating. My biggest concern is how to install the valve such that the water side of the pipe doesn't freeze and burst the pipe.

Anyway I'm bringing the family up for four days next weekend and we'll be purchasing the larger drain pipe and the PVC while I keep pulling my hair out over the valve.

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Below is the rough drawing I made for the project. Specs are:
* Input water flow measured at 10 gallons per minute
* Current pond 105 x 80 feet
* New pond to be 230 x 125 feet
* Maximum depth about 14 feet

In the drawing, the shaded light yellow/green area needs to be excavated. The white area is already low enough - it's an existing creek bed.


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Why not use a tee at the bottom and come up every two feet with another tee till you get approx 4 foot below water level put screw caps in only a couple of turns tight. When you want to drain row out and unscrew cap and keep going to you get the desired water level Paint the top plug orange so it is easy to find and warns others I would use 6 inch schedule 80

If you are going to use a valve best off with a iron screw valve married to pvc and pack srew with heavy silicone lube food grade this will give you a lifetime of service and reliability under all head pressure.

And do not forget the weep collars two in a dam backed with sand

Sorry forgot Valve will have to be in pond unles coop is made outside below grade
Good luck

Last edited by Scott Trava; 08/02/08 01:51 PM.

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The pressure isn't too much of a concern for your depth. At 13 feet, I believe the pressure will be well under 15psi. Others her can give you the exact psi. I personally prefer a plastic ball valve due to the lower cost, longevity, and no obstruction when open.



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It's pretty much 1 psi for every 2 feet of water depth.


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Jeff, the pond plans look great. So good in fact, that I think 200 miles from your house is too far. Before you begin construction I think you should move the pond about 5 miles from your house \:D

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I do have a question on drain pipes in freezing locales that may help Jeff. It seems like a simple idea, but no one suggests it, so I must have something wrong.

We all hate holes in our dams, so why not just make the drain pipe a dry hydrant that comes up through the top of the dam without piercing the core trench? Screw in your drain outlet pipe when you want to drain. Put a valve on the far downstream end, and a tee with a 2" valve at your high-point beside the outlet for the dry hydrant. Close your downstream valve and fill the pipe with water. When full, the water will start running into your pond, flushing the drain out from last year's silt.

Next, shut the 2" valve and turn off your hose or pump. The water that was flowing into the pond should then create a small vacuum. The air that is trapped in the system should then work its way up to the high point. Screw a check valve in your 2" valve. Attach your Shop-Vac, open your 2" valve and suck until you draw water. Shut your 2" valve, then open your big valve at the downstream end of your drain. You should then have a full siphon running to drain your pond.

When you want to break your siphon, just bleed in some air from your 2" valve. When you are done, take all of your "drain line" parts and put them back in the shed. When the sunlight or age breaks down one of your parts, it is easily replaced - because the leak ain't buried.

If the standing water level in your dry hydrant (static water level in the pond) is below the frost line in the ground, then your drain line should be able to withstand hard-freezes in the WV mountains.

Can some of the lurking lunkers please point out the obvious flaw that I am missing?

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I think you just described a classic siphon system. The parts that you plan as removeable and easily replaced if damaged would normally be hidden and protected beneath the dam topsoil. The system would also serve as the principal spillway. I don't think this type system would be susceptible to damage or failure in freezing climates....right?

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I have not read the "saga" of Brettski for quite a while. Didn't you use PVC pipe for the principal spillway? Have you had any freeze problems?

I also seem to recollect you did an elaborate system to protect your drain inlet. Did you make an "extra" hole in your beautiful dam for the drain pipe? In this thread for Jeff, I was talking about a system so your drain pipe doesn't go through your dam.

P.S. I tried "Brettski drain system" in the forum search function. It returned 8 pages of your comments, but I couldn't find the big thread about your pond project that contained links to all of your sub-threads. Where do I find your main post to re-read before I start my pond project?

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...so glad you asked
-
Common Pond Q & A (archives), page 3....Chasing a dream
-
-
There is some other stuff on our website, also. It's easier to navigate from the LNP Site Map page .

Last edited by Brettski; 08/09/08 05:56 AM. Reason: shameless promotion of website
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Brettski,

Thanks for the link.

Also, thanks for the extensive documentation of you "Chasing a Dream". I don't know about the other guys, but it sure gives me more confidence to chase my dream. There are so many aspects of the work that I don't know much about, that it is great to see how you laid out the entire process.

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Rod-man,
You, and all others that might find even one morsel of help in that dissertation, are absolutely welcome. Ewest calls it a journey. It was my pleasure to document the many stops along the way.
 Quote:
I don't know about the other guys, but it sure gives me more confidence to chase my dream.

That one sentence makes it all worth the time and effort to create the anthology. Thank you.


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