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Joined: Aug 2004
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Bruce who are the posters? I have issues with some of that info.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Actually Daryl Bauer is Nebraska reservoir and lakes program manager and probably the most respected fisheries biologist in the region. His information is always dead on. He's also a great fisherman. I just thought his comment might stimulate a little conversation. Daryl often writes pieces for In-Fisherman magazine.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Do you want to refute his comments? Lots of info (peer reviewed studies) contrary to what he said. Its not dead on this time.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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No I don't want to refute. I've probably said a million things that he could have refuted and he let me off easy. Even if he were wrong once it would still leave him at 99.999999999999% accuracy. I was more just wondering...
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Bruce lives too close to Nebraska to make white caps on the pond. I will read it and comment to ewest.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Hall of Fame Lunker
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Never say never as in that particular cross is ALWAYS sterile. There how's that? He could be correct but I wouldn't bet on it in any of my ponds!
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Ewest and others. A classic report about sunfish hybrids "Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae" by Wm F. Childers in 1967 revealed that when male BG were crossed with female GSF the F1 generation (1st hybrids) failed to produce any offspring. However this was only tested once and may not be entirely true. Ewest may know of additional studies on this topic.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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With Dave Willis help we have been chasing this rabbit for 3 years now all the way to checking with the top genetics guys around. Here are some examples.
Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for
Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds 1
MARTIN W. BRUNSON
Rice Research Station, Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station
Louisiana State University Agricultural Center
Post Office Box 1429, Crowley, Louisiana 70527, USA
H. RANDALL ROBINETTE
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries
Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station
Mississippi State University
Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762, USA
Largemouth bass effectiveness
in controlling F2 hybrid recruitment was evidenced
by the following: in the three drained ponds
containing largemouth bass (two bass/feed, one
bass/no-feed), the mean number of F2 hybrids per
hectare was 35; in the three drained ponds without
largemouth bass (two no-bass/feed, one no-bass/
no-feed), the mean number ofF2 hybrids per hectare
was 2,142. Other studies (Childers and Bennett
1967; Ellison and Heidinger 1978; Schaffer 1979)
also have shown largemouth bass to be effective
in the control off 2 individuals in largemouth basshybrid
sunfish populations.
Reproductive Isolation between a Hybrid Sunfish and
Its Parental Species
Attempts to produce backcrossed generations
both in the laboratory and in ponds were unsuccessful.
The reduced population
fecundity resulting from the low percentage of females
results in low recruitment of F2 hybrids and
consequent avoidance of overcrowded conditions.
Reduced population fecundity combined with
predation by largemouth bass results in essentially
no recruitment of F2 fish. Brunson and Robinette
(1986) found that largemouth bass can effectively
control F2 production in ponds, limiting F2 densities
to 35 fish/hectare. In ponds without largemouth
bass, the average F2 density after 2 years
was 2,142 fish/hectare.
Reproduction of Hybrid Sunfishes in Small Ponds
Percy W. Laarman
Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Institute for Fisheries Research, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109
ABSTRACT: Reproduction of F1 hybrids of female green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus) x male bluegill(Lepomis macrochirus) and female green sunfish x male redear sunfish (Lepomis microlophus) was determined in experimental ponds and compared with reproduction of bluegills stocked at similar rates in the same ponds used in a previous study. The percentages of females among the stocked F1 hybrids were: green sunfish x bluegill, 13%; green sunfish x redear sunfish, 28%. The green sunfish x bluegill cross produced 105 F2's and the green sunfish x redear sunfish cross produced 1003. Reproduction of bluegills was 279 times greater than that from either hybrid cross.
I can post more if you like. My 2 cents . The parental backcrossing question is uncertain as to a good answer. Very good PhD FS on both sides with mixed results. On the mBG X fGSF being sterile I disagree as a number of studies have resulted in F2s.
Last edited by ewest; 07/24/08 08:13 AM.
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Lunker
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Male BG and female GSF is the normal HBG from hatcheries.. Is has been banged around over and over and over, there needs to be a predator to control the offspring. Am I missing something?
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Lunker
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I identify Bruce's posts on other forums by recognizing his hands holding fish in the avatar.
Is that sad, or what?
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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This is from Daryl Bauer of the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission.
"Bruce,
Let me tell you where I found that. I have an old reference on my bookshelf. It is an Illinois Natural History Survey Bulletin from 1967, Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae) by William F. Childers. That is an old reference but it was a thorough review of the hybridization of sunfish. In the lab bluegill sperm and green sunfish eggs did produce viable eggs and fry, but in pond experiments male bluegill X female green sunfish hybrids did NOT produce any offspring (those were ponds with no other fish present), while in ponds with male green sunfish X female bluegill hybrids plenty of offspring were produced (unless largemouth bass were present, then there were few survivors).
That is where I came up with that information. Now this is biology/science and that reference is over 40 years old. I have not dove into the literature on sunfish reproduction/hybridization lately so I do not know what new information or additional information is out there. There maybe something more to that, maybe even something contradictory to that?
Anywho that is the $0.02-worth from this pointy-headed fish biologist.
Daryl B.
P.S. Please feel free to share this message with others if you wish."
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,507 Likes: 269
Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Thanks Bruce - that is the same info Bill posted - the Childers study. See Bill's post WRT its limited source. What I posted is much newer than that. In the newer studies they did have F-2s in all the ponds that were stocked with only LMB and/or F-1 HBG which were mBG X fGSF crosses. FWIW there have been maybe 30 studies on HBG/Lepomis since Childers. They are interesting but at odds on some points.
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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My First
by x101airborne - 05/05/24 07:39 AM
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