Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose I hadn't heard this about BG/GS hybrids. True?

Bruce who are the posters? I have issues with some of that info.

Actually Daryl Bauer is Nebraska reservoir and lakes program manager and probably the most respected fisheries biologist in the region. His information is always dead on. He's also a great fisherman. I just thought his comment might stimulate a little conversation. Daryl often writes pieces for In-Fisherman magazine.

Do you want to refute his comments? Lots of info (peer reviewed studies) contrary to what he said. Its not dead on this time.

No I don't want to refute.

I've probably said a million things that he could have refuted and he let me off easy. Even if he were wrong once it would still leave him at 99.999999999999% accuracy.

I was more just wondering...

Bruce lives too close to Nebraska to make white caps on the pond. I will read it and comment to ewest.

Never say never as in that particular cross is ALWAYS sterile.

There how's that?

He could be correct but I wouldn't bet on it in any of my ponds!

Ewest and others. A classic report about sunfish hybrids "Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae" by Wm F. Childers in 1967 revealed that when male BG were crossed with female GSF the F1 generation (1st hybrids) failed to produce any offspring. However this was only tested once and may not be entirely true. Ewest may know of additional studies on this topic.

With Dave Willis help we have been chasing this rabbit for 3 years now all the way to checking with the top genetics guys around. Here are some examples.


Evaluation of Male Bluegill X Female Green Sunfish Hybrids for

Stocking Mississippi Farm Ponds 1

MARTIN W. BRUNSON

Rice Research Station, Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station

Louisiana State University Agricultural Center

Post Office Box 1429, Crowley, Louisiana 70527, USA

H. RANDALL ROBINETTE

Department of Wildlife and Fisheries

Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station

Mississippi State University

Mississippi State, Mississippi 39762, USA





Largemouth bass effectiveness

in controlling F2 hybrid recruitment was evidenced

by the following: in the three drained ponds

containing largemouth bass (two bass/feed, one

bass/no-feed), the mean number of F2 hybrids per

hectare was 35; in the three drained ponds without

largemouth bass (two no-bass/feed, one no-bass/

no-feed), the mean number ofF2 hybrids per hectare

was 2,142. Other studies (Childers and Bennett

1967; Ellison and Heidinger 1978; Schaffer 1979)

also have shown largemouth bass to be effective

in the control off 2 individuals in largemouth basshybrid

sunfish populations.



Reproductive Isolation between a Hybrid Sunfish and

Its Parental Species


Attempts to produce backcrossed generations

both in the laboratory and in ponds were unsuccessful.

The reduced population

fecundity resulting from the low percentage of females

results in low recruitment of F2 hybrids and

consequent avoidance of overcrowded conditions.

Reduced population fecundity combined with

predation by largemouth bass results in essentially

no recruitment of F2 fish. Brunson and Robinette

(1986) found that largemouth bass can effectively

control F2 production in ponds, limiting F2 densities

to 35 fish/hectare. In ponds without largemouth

bass, the average F2 density after 2 years

was 2,142 fish/hectare.



Reproduction of Hybrid Sunfishes in Small Ponds

Percy W. Laarman

Michigan Department of Natural Resources

Institute for Fisheries Research, Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109

ABSTRACT: Reproduction of F1 hybrids of female green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus) x male bluegill(Lepomis macrochirus) and female green sunfish x male redear sunfish (Lepomis microlophus) was determined in experimental ponds and compared with reproduction of bluegills stocked at similar rates in
the same ponds used in a previous study. The percentages of females among the stocked F1 hybrids were:
green sunfish x bluegill, 13%; green sunfish x redear sunfish, 28%. The green sunfish x bluegill cross produced 105 F2's and the green sunfish x redear sunfish cross produced 1003. Reproduction of bluegills was 279 times greater than that from either hybrid cross.


I can post more if you like. My 2 cents . The parental backcrossing question is uncertain as to a good answer. Very good PhD FS on both sides with mixed results. On the mBG X fGSF being sterile I disagree as a number of studies have resulted in F2s.

Male BG and female GSF is the normal HBG from hatcheries.. Is has been banged around over and over and over, there needs to be a predator to control the offspring. Am I missing something?

Not that I know of.

I identify Bruce's posts on other forums by recognizing his hands holding fish in the avatar.

Is that sad, or what?

This is from Daryl Bauer of the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission.

"Bruce,

Let me tell you where I found that. I have an old reference on my bookshelf. It is an Illinois Natural History Survey Bulletin from 1967, Hybridization of Four Species of Sunfishes (Centrarchidae) by William F. Childers. That is an old reference but it was a thorough review of the hybridization of sunfish. In the lab bluegill sperm and green sunfish eggs did produce viable eggs and fry, but in pond experiments male bluegill X female green sunfish hybrids did NOT produce any offspring (those were ponds with no other fish present), while in ponds with male green sunfish X female bluegill hybrids plenty of offspring were produced (unless largemouth bass were present, then there were few survivors).

That is where I came up with that information. Now this is biology/science and that reference is over 40 years old. I have not dove into the literature on sunfish reproduction/hybridization lately so I do not know what new information or additional information is out there. There maybe something more to that, maybe even something contradictory to that?

Anywho that is the $0.02-worth from this pointy-headed fish biologist.

Daryl B.

P.S. Please feel free to share this message with others if you wish."

Thanks Bruce - that is the same info Bill posted - the Childers study. See Bill's post WRT its limited source. What I posted is much newer than that. In the newer studies they did have F-2s in all the ponds that were stocked with only LMB and/or F-1 HBG which were mBG X fGSF crosses. FWIW there have been maybe 30 studies on HBG/Lepomis since Childers. They are interesting but at odds on some points.