Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Heading for a Crash?

Took the wife and kids to my Dad's camp over the weekend. It is on a private, natural lake, probably 8 or 10 acres, full of cypress trees, lots of structure, etc. The LMB seem to be getting smaller by the week. We caught 15 to 20 each day, they probably averaged 12 inches with the biggest weighing about 2 lbs. Last year they averaged about a 1 to 1 1/2 lbs., and the year before they averaged 2+ lbs with a 5+ lb fish caught on almost every trip. The numbers seem to be increasing also. There are a few very large bluegill, and apparently not many small ones.

We have been through a cycle several times of the LMB population getting too large and eating all the forage in the lake. This has been followed by a crash in the past, where even the bass die off. It looks like we are headed for that again. We are keeping every bass we catch, but it just doesn't seem like enough. I think my Dad added more CNBG this year also (they may have been eaten already). Any other suggestions to manage the bass and avoid another population crash? We have been through this cycle at least twice before.

From what I have read on this site, it definitely sounds like too many bass in the pond. If you stock fish for your bass to eat, you are throwing away money. I would suggest to go fishing and either keep and clean as many bass as you can, or toss them on the bank for the critters to eat. I will let somebody chime in with an approximate number, but I would say to remove anything you catch between 8-16 inches and trim the tail fin of anything under 8 inches so that the other fish can eat it easier. With a pond of 8-10 acres, you are probably looking at trying to get 400-500 bass. Once the bass get back in balance, the bluegill will replenish the forage base naturally. Others will chime in shortly and give you their input.

Yes, the lake definitely sounds bass heavy (again). I can see where 8-10 acres would require more fishing to manage than a limited number of anglers (like one family) could provide on periodic visits. You might consider a fishing derby for an affiliated group (church, scouts, fraternal organization, etc.) as a way to remove a large number of slot-limited bass at one time while helping to preserve limited access to the lake long term.

You want to remove bass from the sizes that are the skinniest. Without length and weight data, one can't know these are,; however (as ezylman notes) you probably don't want to remove any bass over 16" IF the smaller sizes are real crowded - 16"+ bass do a good job of thinning out there smaller relatives.

When do you stop? After you have removed enough that the remaining bass are gaining weight again. The total numbers would range from the mid-hundreds to perhaps a couple thousand (?).

Sandman...

I would go with what Theo suggests. I have been researching this site for about 6 months, but he has a whole lot more experience than me with managing a pond. Thanks Theo.

Sandman, can you tell us more about the vegetation and structure in the lake? We have a similar thing happen in our pond due to too much vegetation. Basically the overabundance of vegetation (aka structure) makes predation tougher for the 15"+ LMB, it also means we have a very significant number of YOY LMB that survive every year due to all of the hiding places available making it perpetually bass heavy. I see in you intital post you wrote: "full of cypress trees, lots of structure". In my humble opinion it would help if some of the structure were removed and LMB over 16-17" were protected, at that size they become significant predators on the smaller LMB and should be released. The primary problem that I see that perpetuates this boom and crash cycle is probably too much structure in the lake.

Sandman one additional option is to have someone like Bob come and do a survey to see just what is going on and to take out LMB by electrofishing. What else can you tell us about your situation ( weeds , water source , creek or river influenced , types of fish , fertility , plankton bloom , fishing pressure).

No weeds to speak of. Vegetation consists primarily of the cypress trees in the water and thick brush around the edges. The lake is located in a valley, and water source is rainfall / runoff and probably some springs. No creek or river influence.

The native species were LMB, crappie, native bluegill, chinquapin and mudcats. The chinquapin seem to have disappeared over the last few years (eaten, I am sure). He has periodically stocked Florida strain LMB, CNBG and FHM.

The water is not very fertile. He used to fertilize religiously, quit doing it during the last population crash, but started again this year. Haven't seen a bloom take place yet, although the water does seem to be a little murkier than normally (normally very clear).

Fishing pressure is basically my Dad, myself and my family, and my sister's family, and whatever guests we bring (seldom). Since the last crash, we have basically removed all LMB that we catch under about 3 lbs. (wanted trophy bass). This year, with the increase in numbers and decrease in size we have seen, we have kept everything we have caught.

I think removing 400 fish is doable if we are agressive about it. The derby idea is a good thought, but the lake is a long (3 hrs) drive from home, so its hard to put something like that together. I have pulled out about 60 in the last two trips. I usually make it up there about once a month during the spring and summer to spend a weekend with the family.

If you guys have read my posts about the other two ponds we bought, you notice that I have two extremes to deal with. Two ponds wide open with very little cover on one end of the spectrum and a pond clogged with living cypress trees and brush on the other end. Keeps things interesting.

Sandman...

The lack of a plankton bloom may be your cause. Without the bloom, the fry don't have food to eat and then don't grow to feed your larger fish. With your bass being top predator, they are showing the most extreme effects.

The lack of fishing pressure could also be a factor. Between your dad, your family, and your sister's family, you are looking at less than 10 people maybe? Even if you are culling fish under 3 lbs, they can still get out of whack. Using a slot limit for culling so that the small ones can feed the bigger ones may work better. When you have a body of water that size where the main predator isn't kept in check, overpopulation is bound to occur.

Sandman, is chiquapin the is the local LA slang for redear sunfish? If so, I just learned something new.

Are the "mudcats" bullheads or flathead catfish? A large number of flathead catfish could be eating your bigger LMB. Around here a 7 lb. LMB would not be safe with some of the bigger flatheads I've seen.

Since yiou are looking for a trophey bass lake, have you thought about stocking threadfins or a similar type of forage fish with a more fusiform shape. Golden shiners maybe?

Have you considered stocking tilapia? Do you have any vegetation in the water for them to eat? Since they are so prolific at breeding, they would also help increase your forage base. Setting up a feeder for your bluegill and tilapia may be another solution to consider.

Sandman how long does it take for the cycle to run ? Can you provide a description of what you see over one cycle with approximate times ? Does the tree cover shade out most sunlight ?There is more going on than just to many LMB IMO.

I have to apologize for my Louisiana slang and confess that I am not even certain of the correct names of some of these fish. That being said, I believe that the chinquapin is indeed one and the same as the redear sunfish. The mudcat is not the same as the flathead (also known as a yellow cat or opelousas cat). The mudcat is a native catfish that doesn't get much more than 1 lb. I don't know the proper name.

Just to expand your knowledge of our LA slang, crappie are known as white perch north of I-10 and sac-a-lait (sac-a-lay) when you are south of I-10.

TFS and Golden Shiners are typically not available in the hatcheries in our area. The only forage I have ever found locally is FHM.

The first couple of cycles we didn't really know what was happening (as opposed to now knowing what is happening but not how), so my observations are mostly from the last cycle.

The cycle seems to run about 6 or 7 years. When the die-off occurs, there are very few fish to be found of any species. After a couple of years we start to see a small # of large bass. This is the fishing we like best, we catch a fair number of large bass on any given trip. after a couple of years of this, we see a dramatic decrease in the size and increase in quantity. We go from catching 8 or 10 fish 3lbs and up to catching 20 or 25 fish 1 1/2 and under. When in this phase we very seldom catch anything over 2 lbs. After a year or two of this, you can fish all day for 1 or 2 fish. The population seems to rebuild for a 2 or 3 years, then we go back into the big bass phase.

I mistakenly said before that we kept all the fish under 3lbs when in the large fish portion of the cycle. We actually did use a slot this past go around. Not exact, but roughly we released everything under 12" and over 3lbs.

There are a lot of open areas in addition to the thick cover, so a good bit of sunlight gets to the majority of the lake. There are about 10 of us who fish it, but irregularly.

Sandman, the reason I asked is that I have seen a small local public lake where there are good numbers of yellow cat or opelousas cat and blue catfish, LMB of all sizes were heavily preyed upon every year and we would catch mostly small LMB in the 6-8" size range, most of LMB never did live to get much bigger than that. I was thinking maybe some big flatheads were present and eating most of your bigger LMB. Your mudcat sounds like some type of bullhead which shouldn't be part of the problem.

Sandman - sorry for all the questions. Do you fish for the crappie (white perch) and can you relate them to the cycle? The reason I ask is I think you may be seeing the common life cycle results that are often seen in lakes where the 2 exist in competition for limited forage. If so then removing LMB alone may not get you where you want to go.

This is a really fascinating situation.

Looks like there are several things going on, and all are interelated. The best way to address this is to have someone evaluate the fish population, water chemistry and vegetation/structure. Harvest data sometimes is a good indicator for a population, and sometimes it is not. I managed a 25 acre public lake in North Florida that had the best bass and bream population in the state, as indicated by electrofishing results. However, creel data showed something totally different. Low angling succes rates can be from high angling pressure and educated fish, habitat not allowing anglers to access where fish are or angler skills being less than average. Does not sound like these apply. but, a combination of harvest data and electrofishing are generally needed to really asses a fishery.

Crappie are cyclic, and are hard to manage in water bodies below 15 or 20 acres, and I don't like to see them unless the lake is greater than 25 acres. They are probably competing for and supplying forage at the same time. Certain catfish species can consume a lot of forage fish once they reach certain sizes. Usually not bullheads, but the worst is flatheads, they eat constantly. Channels are in the middle, until they reach 5+ lbs, then they will target all fish they can swallow, but don't eat all the time like a flathead. Channels and flatheads will also still eat fish food when they get big.

From this thread removing about 25 or more LMB's per acre, the first year, between 12 and 15 inches, and removing all crappie above 8 inches (best eating fish in the lake anyway) should be done first, if you do not get a lake evaluation. Fter year one see how bass are growing and modify the harvest rate accordingly. Then the addition of some forage that will naturally reproduce with proper habitat present is next. Sounds like there is habitat for forage survival, but you may want to encourage some desirable vegetation growth along some shorelines. Cypress in water do house some invertibrates, but not like quality vegetation stands.

Good luck!

Ask away! I am looking for input, so any questions are welcome. We usually use yo-yo's baited with shiners, and that is how we catch most of our crappie. We do not catch many, but the few we catch are usually very large (1 1/2 lb +). Maybe 10 or 15 years ago we had a lot, but there numbers have seemed to be low for some time now. This weekend for example, we fished yo-yo's as well as shiners on rod and reel. We took about 35 bass and one large crappie. That is pretty typical these days.

He has had it surveyed on a couple of occasions by one of the state fisheries people, but I don't have the results, and not sure when the last time was. However, it didn't reveal any surprises.

The shoreline is lined with thick brush 10 to 15 feet out from the bank. It is woody stuff, like buttonwoods. very little grassy growth anywhere. I don't know if that makes a difference.

The thick brush is ideal habitat for young baitfish. It could be offering them too much protection though. If you aren't catching a bunch of little crappie, I would guess that your bass are keeping that population in check. I would keep the crappie you catch though, because as S Brown said, they are hard to manage in a small body of water. I would still say you need to harvest a good amount of LMB until the fish start to gain some weight.

See if you can find the results. Those surveys are a snapshot in time. Things change. If the survey was done at the mid point of the cycle it could well show no problems.

I think that the last time he had it surveyed was in the low point, wanted to find out if there were fish that we weren't catching, or if they were indeed mostly gone. They turned up very few fish.

I believe that he has run a net for sampling purposes since then, but I don't remember what he caught. I will check with him next time I talk to him.

Can you get alot of friends together and go BG fishing and take adult BG to your pond ? That way everytime your BG spawn it is large spawns . And get your forage bass up . Thats what i did and managed to get alittle over 2000 BG in my pond. All i the 2 to 10 inch range , mostly 2 to 6 inch . Good luck.