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Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
bobad #134851 10/05/08 07:08 PM
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Thanks. I would guess based on that info that you have P available in the water and soil in a non-bound condition. Alum probably reduced the amount but the 13-13-13 and lime put the water back in good condition. You could get the LSU ag center to do a soil and water test - its not expensive and provides good data to work from.

http://www.stpal.lsu.edu/FAQ/fee.asp
Soil Test and Plant Analysis Lab
School of Plant, Environmental, and Soil Science
Baton Rouge, Louisiana 70803

Phone: 225-578-1261
Fax: 225-578-1403
E-Mail: stpal@agcenter.lsu.edu
Website: http://www.stpal.lsu.edu
















Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
ewest #134902 10/06/08 10:59 AM
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My pond has been fertile from day 1 plus I've been feeding for 6 years and the past couple have been pretty dry and there hasn't been enough rain to flush excess nutrient out. My pond is 2.5' low right now so those nutrients are concentrated. Visability two weeks ago was around 8" where in the past it was 16" to 20" due to suspended clay and plankton. How much harm can I do by adding 60lbs of alum per acre foot followed by 40% hydrated lime?




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #134903 10/06/08 11:51 AM
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Ryan, I think you will be in good shape! IF you need nutrients next spring, I go with the Miracle Grow concentrated liquid fertilizer from Wallt-World----Cheap and effective without too much "P".

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
ewest #134905 10/06/08 12:06 PM
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 Originally Posted By: ewest
Like many pond matters it is a question of balance. WRT the article above it repeats a misconception as to recreational ponds , that is if you want fish. Removing all the P by bonding with Alum is not a good idea for the food chain. No P - no plankton (bottom of the food chain). There is usually one big difference between fish ponds and waste water treatment ponds - one is good for fishing the other not.

I like fish so IMO alum is not the way to treat FA. Alum when used correctly is a good tool to treat clay turbidity.


I agree 100% with you ewest!

My use of alum has been due to EXTREME clay turbidity which prevented anything BUT, FA from growing. After 3 years since building the pond, other than FA growing, the ONLY plant in the pond was a single Arrow Arum that grew from the base of an exposed rootball when the pond was lowered 12 feet for some Dam reworking.

As I said, I agree with you. I don't want a swimming-pool-pond, but with no light penetration, it HAD to be cleared to have a chance to grow anything other than FA.

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #134913 10/06/08 01:05 PM
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No doubt clay turbidity and or FA (or for that matter duckweed or a host of other plants)can be serious problems. The answer mostly depends on the soil or water contents. That is where I suggest everyone start - with soil and water sample analysis. I suggest them even if there is no problem because it gives you a baseline for making changes and assessing change over time.
















Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
ewest #135449 10/10/08 02:00 PM
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If I apply alum, what should I do with my bottom diffuser aeration?

Turn it off?

or

Leave it on?

or

Turn it off during application then turn it back on XX hours after application?

or

Leave it running during application then turn it off for XX hours?




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #135492 10/10/08 05:29 PM
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You should turn it off for about 48 hours. If you've used enough alum to get all the clay, the flocculation will have ceased by then. The floc will then slowly compress itself over time on the bottom. EVERYTHING in the pond will have a sediment layer on it untill the fish dust their house clean.

Best of luck Ryan, and take your time! try to apply the alum for water depth. Deeper water = more alum.

Last edited by Rainman; 10/10/08 05:30 PM.
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #135558 10/11/08 09:05 AM
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I'm going to give this a try this morning. My pH is reading 7.4 using a Senior Deluxe pH test kit made by Wardley. The range is only 6.2 to 7.4 but the water in our area almost always has a high pH. Water temp is 62 degrees. Visability is 7". The picture is looking off the end of my dock. There is a large clay tile about 13" under the surface, hopefully we'll be able to see it once the alum is applied.


Since my pH is so high, should I even bother adding the hydrated lime? or should I just monitor it and only add the hydrated lime if it drops below 7?




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #135588 10/11/08 12:56 PM
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I finished applying 200lbs of alum. It went pretty well. I dumped a bag of alum in the rubbermaid tub then used a David U mixing device while adding pond water being pumped from a 2" electric trash pump. I used the pump for pumping the slurry too.



I walked around the pond, spraying from the edge. I could reach all but about the middle 20'. There was a little wind, so hopefully I got some drift. My measurements at 12:30 today were, 7.2 pH, 63 deg. temp, and 12" visability.


Here's the comparison pic from the end of the dock. I can just barely see the tile now.


The following must be the floc everyone is talking about. It formed pretty quickly and grew as time went by. The wind pushed more of it into this corner. These pics were taken about two hours after I started applying







"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #135782 10/13/08 10:06 AM
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I ended up turning my aerator on about 8 hours after the application. Some of the floc is floating on the surface where the wind piled it up. Visablilty last night was between 18" and 20". The fish were eating and no casualties so far.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #135788 10/13/08 10:44 AM
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That floating floc stuff will disappear. I got a report yesterday from my neighbor that my pond was getting a blue-green tint to it, which it has never had. He didn't know what the visibility was. Guess the clearing is a gradual process & maybe I'll get some algae blooms or other normal pond processes. Anyway Ryan, I was ready to go back up & put more Alum in, but believe patience might be in order..du


Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
david u #135799 10/13/08 11:58 AM
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I'm satified at this point. Are you aerating your pond?

My aerator is still running so it will be interesting to see if it makes a difference either way.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #135802 10/13/08 12:07 PM
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Ryan, no I am not aerating..


Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
david u #136165 10/16/08 09:53 AM
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Man, talk about being REALLY bummed out!!

The wife has recovered enough that we went to our property to see the pond for the first time since early July. The Alum had been applied in very late June and since the application the rain guage shows 15" of rain have fallen and the pond was down about 3 feet. I fear there may be another leak.

The pond is as muddy or worse than it was before the alum was applied! I gathered a sample in a jar to see if it would clear. IT DIDN'T! My CC have spawned successfully due to the turbidity and I was hoping they were the cause.

I am considering one more application of alum, 2000 pounds this time. and purchasing some floc logs as a maintainer of clarity.

Any one else have some thoughts on this problem, or should I just start managing the pond for catfish?

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #136177 10/16/08 12:08 PM
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Rainman, I think I would address the leak issue.

Is the clay coming in with runoff?

BTW the floating floc at my place sunk on it's own a by Tuesday night.




"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking
Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Ryan Freeze #136191 10/16/08 04:12 PM
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Ryan, I'm not sure I have a leak. A pond I use for comparison was also low. We had very low humidity for the area for about a month after the remnants of Ike rolled through. Plus it has only been about 10 months after major underwater borrow areas have been covered with water since some repairs were made, so it may still be "wicking" as well

I still have some areas of exposed clay (it's getting smaller every week), but I had hoped to have over applied enough to compensate for additional runoff.

I think your "Floating" floc was actually algae and as the gasses created by instant decay dispersed, it sank. When I was lazy and just poured in alum and lime, I had tons of algae gas-up and float up from the bottom afterward. It lasted less than a week. It also didn't clear anything.

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #138625 11/14/08 12:35 AM
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I collected some water samples from my pond and a friends pond a couple weeks ago and just got around to trying out the alum.

I thought that this was pretty cool. It is picture of the sample from my pond. The visibility before I added the alum was near zero. The application rate was about .32g per gallon.



Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Chris Steelman #138629 11/14/08 08:15 AM
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Chris, Sedimentation starts off fast, but keeps settling slower and slower. I bet the 2" of sediment in the jug will compact to 1" in a week or 2. I had a test bottle in my shop that I forgot about for ~6 months, and it finally settled down to 1/4".

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
bobad #138834 11/17/08 01:08 AM
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Dang Chris!!!! that is a HUGE amount of sediment in one gallon!!

My vis. is around 2 inches and I only get 1/4 inch of sediment.

Did any settle out before adding the alum?

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #138990 11/18/08 05:59 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Rainman
Did any settle out before adding the alum?


Not one bit. I had it sitting around for at least a week before I added the alum.

I marked the sediment line today so we will see how much ends up settling out. The sediment is still fluid so it has a long way to go.

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Chris Steelman #139327 11/22/08 07:44 PM
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Chris, has you sediment layer settled any more???

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #139328 11/22/08 08:32 PM
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I just checked it and it has settled 1/2 of an inch since the 18th.

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Chris Steelman #146508 01/26/09 07:47 PM
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And thats what it all boils down to.



Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Chris Steelman #146595 01/27/09 09:34 AM
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It's amazing how much soil was in that small quantity of water!

Re: Alum Kicks Clay Butt!
Rainman #146596 01/27/09 09:35 AM
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Has the pond cleared yet? If not, any plans to treat it with alum?

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