Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations A Dream Turned to Fruition (and Mas Questiones)

First of all, let me say thank you to everyone who has helped us with our pond projects. My dad and I really enjoy and appreciate this forum. We want to thank the countless PB friends who have given us direct advice, as well as those who have taught us indirectly simply by sharing their stories even when they didn’t realize they were helping us or giving us great ideas. I only hope we can start to give back as much as we’ve received once we start to learn and gain more PB experience.

We haven’t met our goals yet, but we’re well on our way. The little BG pond (1/4-1/5 acre) still has too many fish and is too nutrient-rich, but the BG are in great body shape despite the overcrowding. We should probably stop feeding until we get the constant blooms under control. We’ve also been catching BG from 6-10” and transporting them to other ponds. We’ve probably taken out 40-50 so far. We did catch a 5” LMB in that pond (despite hoping that the abundant BG would keep LMB reproduction to a minimum). The few adult LMB we purposefully put in are fat & happy with all the BG, fatheads, and gambusias. There are also a few CCs and HSB in there as well, but that is not the focus of the pond. They are more of a “bonus” fish that we can catch occasionally. Neither should reproduce, which is why they’re allowed to remain in that pond.

I posted this pic of a BG on the thread “Questions about Raising Bluegills,” but here it is again:


Here is one of the happy LMB:



The CC pond (1.5- 2 acres) is still turbid (more on that below), but the fish are doing well on the pellet food. We see a few CCs come up and feed that measure WELL over a foot whisker tip to whisker tip. I’m guessing we have a few about 10 lbs? The few adult LMB in there are getting large, but they’re nearly impossible catch on artificials with the extremely low visibility. We’re trying to clear the pond to the point we can enjoy catching other species, but the focus will remain CCs.


The big pond (4-5 acres), although low, is gorgeous. Since we haven’t posted any updates lately, here are a few pics of the finished product. As soon as the water level rises again, it’ll really be something. The biggest thing we’re trying to remember is that all of our ponds are still young and that helps curb our expectations at this point. Nonetheless, the LMB, HSB, CC, and even the BG and RES are looking nice.

Here is a shot of the main dock with the small dock for the 2nd feeder in the background:



In this pic, you can see the “little” island to the right and the “big” island to the left. Off frame to the left is more open water and the dam side, while off frame to the right are the two docks and two inlets.



Here is a little closer shot of the two docks.



Now for the actual fish in the big pond. Here are two examples of the young, fat LMB. Unfortunately, I don’t have any pics of Todd Overton’s famous LLMB [Longhorn LMB], which is our feed-trained, tagged LMB that have an orange hue when they feed. We've caught them repeatedly, though, and their relative weights are really something.

Young LMB:





Yesterday, we really got into the HSB. My dad and I literally had a simultaneous hook-up, which was fun to say the least.

Here is the HSB double.



Here is a pic of a HSB caught on our rosey-red imitation lure. Yes, we stocked roseys.


Another HSB:


They aren’t the monsters of Bruce and George, but we’re getting there. They sure enjoy the Aquamax LMB pellets!



Finally, while trying to sample big BG and small LMB in the big pond, we caught this little gem. Recognize the lure?








I don’t know why, but our CCs in the big pond have consistently hit lures. It adds another dimension I’m not used to, and it sure makes the fishing more fun. You never know what’s coming when you set the hook.



Last but not least, we’re building a new pond. Not just ANY pond . . . a CRAPPIE pond! This one is separated from the big pond by a high dirt road, and barring a major flood, they’ll stay that way.
It will be 1.5- 2 acres. Right now, we’re planning on stocking Roseys/FHs, GSH, Black Crappie, and HSB. Possibly threadfin shad as well.

Stocking: First, add FHs, FHs, and more FHs while getting the water clearer.
Then add GSH and Crappie fingerlings.
Add mature RES for a bonus fish and a small boost of forage. Hopefully Todd Overton will be able to provide some mature RES (1/2-3/4 lb) so that we can stock them after the FH, GSH, and Crappie.

The goal: We’re hoping Crappie and FHs/rosey complement each other. For the deeper, open water, we’re hoping HSB and GSH fill the predator/forage niche. The threadfins would help here as well.

***We’ll possibly add mature female-only LMB after 2 years if we feel the HSB (and fishermen) are not adequately controlling the crappie numbers.
***NO BG. The reason we don’t want BG is because I think BG-Crappie combination would be tougher to control than Crappie and FHs. We’re willing to repeatedly re-stock FHs as much as necessary. I know that adult LMB actually lose weight chasing FHs, but would this happen with Crappie? I’m assuming Crappie are small enough that an abundance of FHs would allow consumption > energy spent. Any thoughts?

Are we on the right track with this plan? We don’t have actual stocking numbers yet . . . right now we’re trying to solidify species. Also, is it the general consensus that black crappie are better than white crappie for this size pond? I know that black crappie do not produce as many eggs as white crappie and, in theory, should be easier to control. On the other hand, black crappie thrive better in clear water, and our water is likely to be turbid until treated with at least one ton of gypsum. Right now we’re still leaning toward black crappie.

Here are a few pics of the recent pond construction. Hopfully after it is finished, the much-needed rains will come!

First is the obligatory in-action construction photo:



Here is a shot of the soon-to-be dam.


On the left is the road that separates the big pond from the new pond. It will be elevated even more. Also, the cement culvert pipes in the photo will provide great structure when the pond is finished.



The new pond will have a long peninsula with about 12’ of water on either side. This is the beginning of the peninsula.


Finally, here is a shot across the pond of the trees awaiting their new home at the bottom of the pond.




If you’ve read this far, you deserve a gold star. However . . .
I do have two more questions:
Due to drought, our CC pond (~1.5 acres) is about 8’ max depth right now. Visibility is anywhere from 0” to 2”—drinkable if you like coffee with lots of cream, as Theo would say. Yesterday we added our first batch of gypsum—36 bags at 40 lbs each. The tilapia wintered in this pond despite the drought depth and the occasional freeze . We’ve seen them large and small feeding on pellets with the CCs.

In the big pond, we have yet to see a tilapia since the fall. We’re hoping at least some of them wintered. That pond is at least 15’ deep even with the drought, and visibility fluctuates but is usually around 12”. In theory, the tilapia should have wintered in the bigger, deeper pond and NOT in the shallower, smaller pond, but the opposite seems to be true.

Could the muddier water in the CC pond have helped the tilapia make it through the winter, even if the CC pond is shallower? If clarity/suspended clay particles have anything to do with temperature of the water and/or its effects on fish, how much difference can it make?
I did find a website that said: “Turbidity is the condition resulting from suspended solids in the water, including silts, clays, industrial wastes, sewage and plankton. Such particles absorb heat in the sunlight, thus raising water temperature, which in turn lowers dissolved oxygen levels.”
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/fenlewis/Waterquality.html

This answers part of the question, but I still don’t know whether extremely turbid water keeps the temperature high enough to save tilapia despite shallower water. In other words, I don’t know how MUCH turbidity helps keep water temperature up.

Another thought: If fish cannot sight-feed as well in the low visibility water, then it’s possible that the tilapia survived the winter even if they got sluggish in the cold water. In the larger pond with more visibility, sluggish tilapia, even if they would have survived like in the CC pond, might have been easy pickins’ for the large LMB and CCs this winter.

Any other thoughts as to if/how the tilapia were able to winter in the CC pond but not the big pond?


My second question relates to the gypsum application. Ignoring muddy water, does the gypsum spread better when the water temperature is warmer or cooler?


I know that as water temperature drops, density increases (until about 34 degrees). The converse is obviously true—when water temperature rises, the water becomes less dense. Would density affect how fast gypsum either settles to the bottom or disperses throughout the water column? If so, I’m assuming that it is best to apply gypsum in cooler, denser water. Of course, we used a trolling motor prop to spread the gypsum, but it is still hard to tell how much settles to the bottom and how much actually disperses.


Thanks for all the help!

David:

Fantastic post.

I don't have any idea on the gypsum - here's a first line reminder for the summary screens.

Turbidity may indeed have lowered albedo enough on the CC pond for the tilapia to overwinter there. Another possible influence for you to evaluate is tree cover - are there major differences between the two ponds on how trees block prevailing winds (or maybe more important - Winter storms from the North) or sunlight? I am sure there are other factors that could make up the difference, and that the other PMs here will come up with most of them.

Lastly, two thoughts:
1) It has been my impression that you and your Dad were already giving back more than you receive here.
2) Brettski must have seen a picture of your covered dock. I think he super-sized it just a little when he built his.

Theo's second note
Some 3 years ago, when I embarked on the pond journey and concurrently stumbled across PB, Al was amongst the first to step up and help answer the laundry-list of pond construction questions I delivered. At that time, Dave was just a twinkle in the Ahvatsa/forum mind. They were in the midst of completing their 5 ac jewel. Al provided alot of support and inspiration for our project. Yep, his cool dock/deck was my model.
-
Jeff Gaines was another forum member that inspired our dock/deck. If you're out there, Jeff, cyber-hi-5 to ya!

Dave, Your post is very interesting. I have read through it a couple times already. Good work!

Dave and Al,

Happy Easter! I hope to get to see your setup in person someday. You already have given a lot back.

It is obvious that your bluegill are in great body condition. Impressive picture, but I want more!!

Hooray for HSB doubles.   Too much fun! 

I recognize the lure. I’ve caught many crappie on them, and also a couple of bluegill. They are dynamite.

My thoughts on the all crappie pond… I think that fatheads and crappie are a perfect mix, but I really like the idea of having at least a small feeder that would distribute a few pellets right next to a crappie holding structure. That way you get stupid fatheads wandering up to get the pellets, and BOOM, bye-bye fatheads.

In regards to black vs. white crappie, I have always in the past recommended black crappie, but your situation is unique. If you anticipate slightly turbid water, and primarily a fish based prey source I would at least entertain the idea of white crappie, or even a mixture of the two. Conventional wisdom is that if your crappie are mostly piscivorous, that whites would do better. I think they certainly grow as big, if not bigger in a situation like this.

I’ll let somebody else comment on water chemistry issues, since I am a water chem idiot.

Please keep the pictures coming.


Bruce

-- --

Check your snail mail for how to do the crappie pond as per SEP. See this link last few posts http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import .

With all that forage and not real clear water I would go with the larger White Crappie. I think a review of the archive crappie thread would be good. ? hybrid crappie ?

Your family continues to do way more than its part -- in fact Al's slide show was the first access to pics/slide show and chronicle the entire pond renovation.

Really impressive stuff. Congrats guys

Thank you all very much for the kind words and helpful comments. It is a privilege to learn and share with all of you. Dwight and heybud, thanks for the words of affirmation.


Theo wrote:
“Turbidity may indeed have lowered albedo enough on the CC pond for the tilapia to overwinter there. Another possible influence for you to evaluate is tree cover - are there major differences between the two ponds on how trees block prevailing winds (or maybe more important - Winter storms from the North) or sunlight? I am sure there are other factors that could make up the difference, and that the other PMs here will come up with most of them.”

Good points, Theo. I still have a hard time believing that turbidity could overcome what is essentially a 7’ maximum depth difference between the two ponds such that it is the reason that the tilapia survived in the shallower CC pond and not the big pond. Nonetheless, it may indeed be the case. As I indicated in the first post, I do know that turbidity increases water temperature. I will be amazed if it could make that much difference, but I thought the idea had enough merit to post.

At the closest point, the big pond and the CC pond are maybe 50 yards apart. However, the CC pond is more bowl-shaped and sits lower than the big pond. Thus, the big pond is more open and exposed to the weather. This very well could have made a difference in tilapia wintering. OTOH, the big pond is tree-lined, while the CC pond has virtually no trees around it. Further, the majority of the trees and the elevated dam *should* protect the north side of the big pond more than any other side, which would mean it should hold its temperature better in the winter. The CC pond might get a little more sunlight due to no trees, but I doubt it is enough to make the difference.



Brettski wrote:
“Some 3 years ago, when I embarked on the pond journey and concurrently stumbled across PB, Al was amongst the first to step up and help answer the laundry-list of pond construction questions I delivered. At that time, Dave was just a twinkle in the Ahvatsa/forum mind. They were in the midst of completing their 5 ac jewel. Al provided alot of support and inspiration for our project. Yep, his cool dock/deck was my model.”

Who you callin’ a twinkle? j/k I’m glad my dad was able to offer both construction advice and a model dock. He and I both learned by trial and error (LOTS of error). Even error has never so much fun.



Bruce wrote:
“Dave and Al,
Happy Easter! I hope to get to see your setup in person someday. You already have given a lot back.
It is obvious that your bluegill are in great body condition. Impressive picture, but I want more!!
Too much fun! Hooray for HSB doubles.
I recognize the lure. I’ve caught many crappie on them, and also a couple of bluegill. They are dynamite.

My thoughts on the all crappie pond… I think that fatheads and crappie are a perfect mix, but I really like the idea of having at least a small feeder that would distribute a few pellets right next to a crappie holding structure. That way you get stupid fatheads wandering up to get the pellets, and BOOM, bye-bye fatheads.

In regards to black vs. white crappie, I have always in the past recommended black crappie, but your situation is unique. If you anticipate slightly turbid water, and primarily a fish based prey source I would at least entertain the idea of white crappie, or even a mixture of the two. Conventional wisdom is that if your crappie are mostly piscivorous, that whites would do better. I think they certainly grow as big, if not bigger in a situation like this.
I’ll let somebody else comment on water chemistry issues, since I am a water chem idiot.
Please keep the pictures coming.”


First of all, Happy Easter! Thanks for the kind words about our BG. The little BG pond might just be my favorite (at least at certain times of the year). Anytime you make it down our way, you have an open invitation to the place. I’ll try to get more BG pictures and post them. The one above has one of the better Wrs of the BG from that pond, but it certainly isn’t the biggest overall BG we’ve caught. Pound for pound, BG might fight even better than HSB. I love catching them!

I really appreciate your crappie advice (no pun intended—couldn’t help myself). I didn’t think of whites doing as well in that size pond, but you bring up a good point with the turbid water and the abundant forage base we’re planning. We will definitely feed pellets on this pond as well, and I like your idea of having the pellets float over the crappie structure. I personally would love having whites or both.


ewest wrote:
“Check your snail mail for how to do the crappie pond as per SEP. See this link last few posts http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id=1#import .

With all that forage and not real clear water I would go with the larger White Crappie. I think a review of the archive crappie thread would be good. ? hybrid crappie ?

Your family continues to do way more than its part -- in fact Al's slide show was the first access to pics/slide show and chronicle the entire pond renovation.”


Once again, thanks for the kind words. We’ll keep an eye out for the mail. Thanks for the links as well—I can never find the best threads like you can!
Like Bruce, you bring up good points with the white crappie. I’m actually very pleased to hear that both of you think we can make the work given our expected conditions. We’ve thought about hybrid crappie, but since the goal of this pond is to have fun catching and eating good-sized crappie and HSB, we actually want the reproduction in this case—even if it is not always predictable.

Do you think crappie/FHs and then HSB/GSH/possibly threadfin shad are good combinations? I just love the idea of a crappie/HSB predator pond if we can make it work. I know Crappie suspend in deeper water as well, but in my mind the HSB will rule the open water, and the crappie will act more like LMB in this pond, cruising the shallows for FHs and pellets. No LMB in this pond unless we need female-only to control the crappie, and no BG.


Does anyone ever recall reading whether gypsum spreads better in cooler or warmer water? Cooler water, being more dense, would seem to slow the amount of gypsum that sinks to the bottom. However, could warmer (less dense) water actually allow the suspended particles to bond to/absorb the gypsum better? It makes sense either way, but one of those thoughts is bound to be wrong.

d read that link. I don't think it will work without the tshad based on the SEP results.

Dave, not a lot of us have gypsum experience. I would contact US Gypsum. I did it once and got some pretty interesting EMails from them. I do remember that they recommended a larger size of gyp pellet to keep the stuff from washing around in a pond on a windy day. I've never considered water temp as being a factor and with the larger pellet it shouldn't matter(I guess).

I hope y'all don't mind a little update on our progress.

The little BG pond actually has less FA now than during the winter. We still watch it closely and put the water pumps on it occassionally.

We've caught mostly BG out of this pond, but this spring we're finding yoy RES. We stocked CNBG a few years ago but have not seen any. My wife and I did a little sampling last weekend. Are these three different fish CNBG? They seem to have the "bar" above the nose, but I'm not sure whether BG could have the coloring seen in these fish as well. The "bar" seems to extend beyond the nose to the lower jaw, which makes me second-guess whether they're CNBG. I've actually not had much experience with CNBG, so I'd appreciate some i.d. help. Could any of these be CNBG/BG x?





And last, but certainly not least, my lovely wife with her "catch of the day:"




If these are indeed CNBG, why are we catching so many all the sudden? We stocked them along with BG and RES. Granted, we stocked BG in higher numbers, but I've been surprised that we haven't seen any CNBG until (hopefully) now.


Here are a few photos of the CC pond. After using both powder and pellet gypsum (total of about one ton), we now have 5-6" of clarity. That is actually a vast improvement. We're actually seeing LMB chasing forage...something we've yet to see in this pond! The focus of the pond will remain CCs, but unfortunately we're still catching yellow bullheads as well. The photos below were taken while I was standing on the main peninsula of the pond. A series of 4 photos covers the pond, going from southeast to southwest.










Finally, what's a day on the ranch without a redneck picnic. When you have too many people to eat in a small cabin, what do you do? Easy--pull up the trucks, drop the tailgates, and you have a perfectly good table.

wow dave, i havent really seen this entire thread yet....wow again, what a fantastic place.

just to keep my comments brief, they do look like CNBG but others here know more and know better.

p.s. luv the redneck picinic, and glad to see yer a chevy/GM man..... will accept any grief from this last sentence as deemed necessary....

Looks like you and Al are having a ball.

I concur that they are CNBG.

Not sure I understand how turbidity would cause warmer water. I can sorta see how solids would allow the water to hold heat but it seems to me that sunlight penetration should warm the water quicker. And, you guys are butt deep in sunshine. If turbidity does hold heat, it seems to be made to order for tilapia over wintering. Ditto on wind which should keep the solids suspended.

What's the name of that lure? It may be the only one that I don't have. Can't figure out thow the lure makers slipped one by me.

I seem to recall from one of Ewests postings that black and white crappie have the same fecundity.

If you get any rain, don't let Al get those Z71's near any wet spots. You know how he is.

When are you and the Wife coming to Cowtown for Mexican food?

You and Theo knock it off. Gotta go to the book to look up albedo. Don't bother with the long hair explanations. I'll tuff it out.

Great report Dave...keep the pictures coming.
Yep ...CNBG..

That looks like great fun, David. You'll get no vehicular jabs from me - my wife and I have willingly driven nothing but Chevy trucks (and, occasionally, my old Camaro) since 1985.

DD, when you get tired of all that Tex-Mex food, go to a nice Italian restaurant and order the fettucini albedo.

OK, I looked it up. Just what I thought. You guys are pencil whuppin (or keyboard whuppin) in an effort to confuse me. You know durn well that the Muleshoe dictionaries didn't use any word with more than 5 letters.

I thought I'd give an update now that the crappie pond is finished! We just need rain, and lots of it.


First is a shot of one of my favorite views. This is from the dam looking down on the main peninsula.



Next is a shot from our rock "boat ramp" looking back toward the spillway.


Our dozer man did a good job, but he got a bit carried away on the main channel. It's almost a straight drop to 23 feet!


The next two are pics of the spillway itself and the view from the spillway.




Here's a pic of our soon-to-be boat ramp. We just need to smooth the rock and wait for the rains to come.



Here is a shot of the double silt-catcher. This spot should catch a LOT of runoff!




Finally, here are couple shots of our most recent outing. We stopped at the BG pond first thing yesterday morning. On his third cast, my dad catches this:



On my second cast, I catch this:

At least I know where to hook 'em!


Here is one of our tagged, feed-trained LMB. This is one of the skinnier of the tagged ones we've caught.


IIRC, Theo recently remarked that three pondmeisters have reported LMB learning to eat pellets from other (feed-trained) LMB. I'm almost certain our non feed-trained LMB are eating pellets. Feeding time is quite a sight!

Masterpiece! Wow!
Nice work...congrats.

Those are some of the best contour photos I've seen yet! Wow! Bruce likes!

Davatsa -- truly amazing job! If Lusk had a "build a pond with structure" award, you'd win hands down!! Thanks for posting.

How much are we thinkin' Dad's largemouth weighed?

Is that (island/peninsula) gonna be underwater, David? If so, I'd be real tempted to add some long pipe sections (barrels) and vertical posts (masts) and have a sunken battleship.


Did I do that already? I know I've been meaning to.

I have more pellet-eating LMB than ever this year, in smaller sizes, down to 10"-11". I think there may be littler ones than that eating feed as well, that I haven't been able to distinguish yet.

Really nice guys. You are gonna enjoy it. Congrats

Great photos Davasta!

Dave, the lure is called a minnow stick. You can find it here:
http://www.okuma.com.au/storm/prod_minnow_stick.asp

My dad also mentioned it in another thread:
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post87752


You know I'll keep an eye on him and his toys, wet spots or not. I just hope we get rain sometime soon.

My wife and I will have to plan a trip up there. She loves DFW, and I love mexican food!