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#114818 04/08/08 09:25 PM
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I currently manage a private pond approx 6 acres with existing fla strain lmb, would there be a problem introducing my local strains in Northern California?

Thank you in advance.

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I can't see a problem other than mixing or diluting the genes and creating F1's.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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It depends on what you want and the conditions.

New study from AFS on the subject of Fla LMB vs Nth LMB and their mixed offspring. In this study the South Carolina, frequencies of FLMB alleles ranged from 98% in Lake Moultrie, a Coastal Plain reservoir, to 36% in Lake Wateree, a Piedmont reservoir.





Performance Differences between Two Endemic Stocks of

Largemouth Bass in South Carolina

JEAN LEITNER* AND JAMES BULAK

South Carolina Department of Natural Resources, 1921 Vanboklen Road,

Eastover, South Carolina 29044, USA

Abstract.—A common-garden experiment was conducted to compare growth of two stocks of largemouth bass Micropterus salmoides, one from the Coastal Plain and one from the Piedmont region of South Carolina. An equal number of fish from each stock were released at age 0 in Lake Paul Wallace, a 113-ha municipal impoundment in South Carolina’s Coastal Plain. Boat electrofishing during spring was used to sample the population at ages 1, 3, and 4. Relative survival, mean length and weight, weight frequency distributions, and weight–length relationships were compared between stocks. The Piedmont stock was significantly larger at age 1, whereas the Coastal Plain stock was larger at ages 3 and 4. The weight frequency distributions differed between stocks, as did the weight–length relationships. The total catch for each stock was not proportionally different from stocking rates at age 1. However, the catch of the Coastal Plain stock was significantly higher at ages 3 and 4, suggesting better survival to those ages. We conclude that these two endemic stocks exhibited different performance at one study site in the Coastal Plain. Further evaluations across regions are needed to better define the performance of these two stocks of largemouth bass and ascertain appropriate stocking regions for each stock.

North American Journal of Fisheries Management 28:516–522, 2008

Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2008



Here is a basic overview from the study but there is more not said.

Two subspecies of largemouth bass Micropterus

salmoides, the Florida M. s. floridanus and the northern

M. s. salmoides, were first described by Bailey and

Hubbs (1949). Kassler et al. (2002) proposed divergence

of the two warranted species designation. Philipp

et al. (1983) showed that (1) the native range of the

Florida largemouth bass (FLMB) was restricted to

peninsular Florida; (2) the northern largemouth bass

(NLMB) was native to waters north of Maryland along

the Atlantic coast, and then west to the Mississippi

River; and (3) a hybrid zone existed between the ranges

of the two. The FLMB, NLMB, and their hybrids

interbreed where they coexist (Isely et al. 1987;

Gilliland and Whitaker 1991; Philipp and Whitt 1991).

Physiological and ecological differences among

FLMB, NLMB, and their hybrids have been documented.

For example, they exhibited different critical

and chronic thermal maxima (Fields et al. 1987) and

different mortality rates when held at low temperatures

(Carmichael et al. 1988). In addition, FLMB and

NLMB differ in the timing of spawning, growth rate,

reproductive success, and survival (Isely et al. 1987;

Gilliland and Whitaker 1991; Philipp and Whitt 1991).

Performance differs among endemic units within the

historic range of FLMB and NLMB. For example,

growth and survival differed between progeny of

parents from different drainages in Illinois (Philipp

and Claussen 1995). Similarly, swimming performance

differed between Illinois and Wisconsin populations of

bass (Cooke et al. 2001). Lastly, the survival, growth,

and reproductive success of the local stock were higher

than those of the nonlocal stock when comparing

performance among Wisconsin, Illinois, Texas, and

Florida populations at each locale (Philipp et al. 2002).
South Carolina is located in the hybrid zone ....

Other threads

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=22664&fpart=1 Calif LMB - LMB growth at cold temps

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...d7475#Post87610 Bill Dance Fla LMB

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101702&fpart=1 winter feeding

From the above wrt Calif.

Here is some direct data from one of the Calif. lakes in question. In the same lake under the same conditions Fla. and Northerns. There are also some interesting text points I will try to scan tomorrow. Here is a chart. The chart is of age , length and weight.

Nort. ------------------ Fla.

1- 6.07 - .20 ----------1- 5.92 - .15
2- 11.62 - 1.10 --------2- 12.75 - 1.50
3- 14.73 - 2.15 --------3- 15.69 - 2.84
4- 16.37 - 2.91 --------4- 17.65 - 4.15
5- 17.94 - 3.80 --------5- 20.39 - 6.44
6- 19.11 - 4.57 --------6- 22.05 - 8.32
7- 20.28 - 5.39 --------7- 23.08 - 9.61
8- 20.35 - 5.53 --------8- 23.36 - 10.05
9- none none ----------9- 24.80 - 12.15
10- none none --------10- 25.63 - 13.32

A couple of their points - Flas live longer that is why no data on 9+ yr. Nort. - Waters rarely drops to 50 and thus a year long growth season - while shad are a forage RT were necessary to get to very large size - RT stocked in coldwater mths at 9-11 inches no fear and fat are easy pickings for large LMB - big LMB do not go deep after shad ( + 30 ft.) in winter but stay up ( less than 25 ft.) and eat RT and craws.







Last edited by ewest; 04/12/08 09:37 AM.















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 Originally Posted By: ewest

Nort. ------------------ Fla.

1- 6.07 - .20 ----------1- 5.92 - .15
2- 11.62 - 1.10 --------2- 12.75 - 1.50
3- 14.73 - 2.15 --------3- 15.69 - 2.84
4- 16.37 - 2.91 --------4- 17.65 - 4.15
5- 17.94 - 3.80 --------5- 20.39 - 6.44
6- 19.11 - 4.57 --------6- 22.05 - 8.32
7- 20.28 - 5.39 --------7- 23.08 - 9.61
8- 20.35 - 5.53 --------8- 23.36 - 10.05
9- none none ----------9- 24.80 - 12.15
10- none none --------10- 25.63 - 13.32


This data help explain my relative weight question on a previous post.
My Previous Post on Relative Weight

I had caught a bass last year and this year and she was basically the same size. I bet she will be passing away soon.



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I found a survey or study located in Oklahoma. I did not put the url here as I don't know the site's policy about including outside references. I have been a reader for many years, but this is my first post. The study or article is titled, "Florida Largemouth Bass in Small Impoundments". Pretty much hit the nail on the head there, except for state. They stocked two ponds with genetically verified, pure strain FLA LMB. Eventually or 5 to 6 years later they resurveyed the ponds. Pure FLA LMB still made up 75-85% of the population. Integrade 5% or less, split Nor/FLA LMB and 15-30% tiny fraction of Nor LMB in remaining bass. The study was not for growth, but for survivability. They estimate fishermen caught and released the Northerns in the pure FLA ponds. The minimal dilution of the FLA strain I feel just indicates the larger portion of FLA bass.

What the article did not address was any benefit or detriment to intermixing species. I feel without the year long warmth the FLA LMB are going to be limited growth to some extent. However there have been two fish caught in our colder resevoirs up North in California topping 18 LBS. Both trout stocked. No trout in my pond. I have a long history with this pond, 5 years now as owner's contacted me when pond was going bad.

I guess my basic question is are there any pros or cons to intermixing maybe 5% Northern strains into a used to be pure FLA LMB pond. I can answer any questions are far as habitat, forage, depth, water drawdown, etc.

Thanks for the responses so far. O Frog.

Last edited by O Frog; 04/10/08 10:09 AM.
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Welcome O Frog. It is ok to post links to outside sources and is suggested. I have seen the OK study. It is some years old and is one of several with the same info/conclusions. The study also addresses cold effects on Flas.

What are your water temps over a year ? The basic differences are listed in the study above and in the links to prior threads.

Do you know the current % of the fish you have. If you go that route you may want to add more than 5%. FWIW strain is not nearly as important (within the proper range) as are forage availability and water quality.
















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Hello O Frog, welcome to Pond Boss (ok a belated welcome).

It's good to see another Californian! There are a few of us on this board. DIED (Dave in El Dorado) and I own ponds in El Dorado county. Where abouts are you located?


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I think pond may be in El Dorado county. Maybe Amador. I'm in Elk Grove. Clarity is crystal clear. No secchi but easily 12 ft. Forage, was none. Now BG, frogs, crawdads, dragonflies. Have had several 40 c and r days. One 50. Top fish this year 7 3/4 lbs. on a digital. Full of eggs. Finally starting to get heavy fish and see small bass after many years of establishing forage. Another pond I manage has LMB only, but caretaker/manager of property wants them removed as they inhale ducklings in front of residents. I think the ratio will be so small there will be very few crosses. Genes will dilute down to fractional, in some fish. Still adding forage and cover. Considering mosquito fish, turtles and pond snails. Relocated all garter snakes.


Thanks for warm belated welcome and hellos. O Frog

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Can you tell us why you want to add Nort LMB genes ? We have Flas , Norts and mixes of all sorts. We did this on purpose for several reasons.
















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No I can't, that is why I am here on this forum asking the pros and cons. I can put them anywhere to relocate them. But my best pond is the FLA strain pond.

Are there any pros or cons?


Thanks O Frog.

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 Originally Posted By: ewest
Can you tell us why you want to add Nort LMB genes ? We have Flas , Norts and mixes of all sorts. We did this on purpose for several reasons.


OK, I'll bite like a hybrid LMB. What were the several reasons you did this? I am humbly searching for knowledge to cure my ignorance on the subject.

And a bit off the subject, what is the proper way to check the pond for temp? Different depths? Surface and what depth? Any thermommeter good enough?

It has come to the point I can't wing this anymore, I must consult the experienced members here.

Thank You, O Frog.

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O Frog, you're a neighbor then! DIED and I got some fish from a great guy in Elk Grove!


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Size vs. catchability , thermal tolerance , aggressiveness . There There are a bunch of threads here on the subject - start with the ones above. They are also ided in the study info above (now in blue).

For water temps it depends on what you are checking so a year round profile at all depths is best. See

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38397#Post38397

















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