Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Gizzard shad

I'm always searching to improve the forage base in my ponds and this past weekend stocked a few pounds of gizzard shad in a 3.5 acre pond which has several large LMB and also has a good HSB population (about 30). I've tried threadfin shad twice in the past, but they haven't survived the LMB and HSB predators. I've read concerns over gizzard shad overpopulating small ponds and wonder if anyone here has any direct experience...good or bad... with gizzard shad in small ponds with LMB and HSB.

Any experience with gizzard shad?

To All The Readers - I will supply some background information on gizzard shad.

Our mentor Bob Lusk and a few others have mentioned that gizzard shad can be helpful BUT not necessary in growing trophy bass above the 6 lb mark. Also see his book "Raising Trophy Bass". I think a pond needs a "goodly" number of bass larger than 5 lbs AND that good numbers of larger panfish are LOW on the list of pond goals before gizzard shad are considered or stocked. I "think" most professionals would agree that threadfin shad since they are usually less than 6" long are a lot more desirable than gizzard shad as supplimental forage fish for stocking into any recreational fish pond. As noted numerous times previously on this forum their main disadvantage is threadfin shad die when water temps drop below 41F. My additional comments are listed below.

1. Gizzard shad live longer (4yrs) than threadfin shad (2 yrs). Gizzard shad are very very prolific and produce 22,000 to 540,000 eggs depending on size of female. Eggs are adhesive, laid & fertilized in open water, and settle on vegetation or bottom materials. Eggs hatch quickly (3-7days). Fry grow very rapidly to 10" long and adults range from 11" to 23" long; quite large for a forage fish. If gizzards live around 4 yrs old and grow to 20+" that indeed is fast growth.

2. Gizzard shad are filter feeders, swim a lot in open water and strain & eat very small organisms (plant & animal plankton) collected from the water. Gizzards will also eat plant and animal materials from the bottom sediments and probably roil or disturb the sediments in this feeding activity. When gizzard shad numbers are abundant at 500-600 lbs/acre the fish can actually filter the ENTIRE volume of a pond/lake in 50-60 hours.

3. I will quote a professor (Jay Huner - Farm Pond Harvest Mag. fall 2004) from Louisiana SW Univ. "It would take an odd fellow indeed to recommend the stocking of gizzard shad in ANY recreational fish pond". "They are very proflic fishes". "They grow very rapidly". "Because they are low on the food chain, they develop relatively high biomasses and out compete desirable fry and fingerlings such as bluegill and largemouth bass fry fingerlings for food".

4. Gizzard shad are especially adept at leaping over low spillways. Shad threadfin and gizzard are very sensitive to handling. They are very sensitive to low oxygen levels at 2ppm and lower. These are first fish to die when oxygen levels start decreasing. Unhappy shad are good barometers of poor water quality.

5. Since gizzard shad can easily grow to sizes beyond the forage size of the largest bass high numbers of these oversized, inedible fish will cause the panfish and numbers of fingerlings to "suffer" in pond or small lake due to their consuming a majority or most of the pond's important plankton organisms. The overall fish poundage in the lake can be composed of mostly big gizzard shad. This is okay if all you are interested in is big bass or big predators and not panfish. Keep in mind that once stocked it is extremly difficult to eliminate the gizzard shad and you are stuck with them until the pond/lake is completely renovated. Panfish populations would have always been better in this pond if they did not have to compete with the filter feeding gizzards. Controling gizzard shad numbers can be quite difficult.

6. Numbers of large predators that are capable of eating 12"-15" gizzard shad should always be high to keep the larger gizzard shad from becoming too abundant. Again, if this is your goal for the pond or lake, then maybe gizzard shad can work in special situations. If gizzard shad are stocked you should have the ability to closely monitor their populations in terms of numbers and presence of relative sizes. I think this means you are willing to get a professsional fisheries person involved who can do shocking and sampling surveys. But in most ponds, at least some like or enjoy catching and harvesting the large panfishes. Gizzard shad tend to suppress the dynamics of quality panfisheries.

7. Lots of ponds and lakes that are properly managed contain high quality bass and panfish without gizzard shad as a forage fish.

POSTSCRIPT; Meadowlark, The main problem that I see with stocking gizzard shad with HSB is that the gizzards will very quickly (in a few months) grow way too big body depth wise for the largest HSB to eat it. Keep in mind that HSB have quite a small mouth compared to a LMB of the same length. A real good forage item to stock with HSB I think is the golden shiner. It is an open-water shiner that gets 10" long (3-5yrs) and is relatively prolific with proper spawning areas and some cover to provide refugia for the small shiners till they get 4"-5" long. They too will compete with the panfish populaiton but not as dramatically as the gizzard shad.

Bill,

The May/June issue of Pond Boss contains an article written by Kedric Nutt which does not agree at all with your assessment. The article stated that the “old opinions regarding gizzard shad were based on an expectation of severe competition for food between shad and sport species, primarily bluegill.” Recent research by Dr. DeVries concluded that “ gizzard shad do not compete with bluegill, bass, etc. to a measurable or significant degree.” Further, regarding the old claim that gizzard shad will take over a pond he stated that “it simply does not happen”.

I don't know Dr. DeVris nor Dr. Homer Swingle who were cited in the Pond Boss article and who both recommend the stocking of gizzard shad, but I do know Todd Overton of Overton Fisheries and do not consider him to be “an odd fellow” as your professor labels anyone recommending gizzard shad in a pond to be. He has never seen gizzard shad overtake a pond and in fact has a rearing pond with both gizzard shad and bluegill with no adverse affects to either one.

It certainly was not my intent to start a controversy with Bill Cody in asking the Forum for first hand gizzard shad experiences. I have recently stocked them based upon reading Pond Boss, other articles, and Todd's experience.

I just wondered if any others on this forum had also stocked them and what were their results. Thanks.

Bill, what are the downsides to Golden Shiners?

Thinking in terms of a pond with BG, LMB and HSB.

Lt'lDog - Golden shiners like gizzard shad are not usually considered a tasty and valuable panfish.

Other Downsides that I can think of right now are listed below.
Note some of the things, that I mention, could be considered a positive or negative feature depending on "what you are looking for" ie Fishery GOALS or your point of view.

1. They do not get as large and wide in the body as gizzard shad, thus a large bass 18"-20" could easily swallow a 10" g.shiner which has a body depth of 2 5/8". I currently have 10" g.shiner in my SMB pond. Thus the shiners would need quite a bit of cover / refugia / weedy areas to maintain adequate breeding populations of 6"-10" adults in the presence of "heavy" bass populations. In a weed-free pond, LMB will easily and pretty quickly eliminate all g. shiners. Thus I see g. shiners working better with either HSB, yellow perch, SMB and walleye as primary predators than with LMB.

2. They are not quite as prolific as gizzard shad. But they do measure up as egg producers. Females 5.25" to 5 3/4" long were reported to produce 2290 to 4600 eggs. Some authors have reported as many as 200,000 eggs from real large females (prob abt 10" -12" fish). They can live longer (6-10yrs) than gizzard shad (3yrs -5yrs.) if not eaten first.

3. Young do not grow as fast and thus do not get a wide body wise as gizzard shad. One year old g. shiner get to about 2" north and 4" long in south. So a golden shiner is vulnerable to being eaten for a longer period of its 1st 2-3 yrs of life compard to a gizzard shad. A three yr g.shiner I think would be about abt 6"-7" long in mid US or northern areas.

4. G.shiner can tolerate quite low oxygen levels, down to 1.4pm for 2 days. They have been reported to survive 0.2ppm dissolved Oxygen.

5. They eat a wider variety of food organisms than gizzard shad. G.shiner are true omnivours, sight feeders and will compete directly with bgill and small bass by eating lots of insect larvae, amphipods, and larger zooplankton. They have been reported as good controlers of mosquito larvae. Some reported them as eating a few plant fragments including filamentous algae plus small amounts of silt and detritus.

6. It can jump out of the water when chased or frightened.

7. Delicate minnow and difficult to keep alive for long periods in a bait bucket.

8. I catch lots of them during spawning season on a small hook #12 baited with worm. I have caught them ice fishing with wax worms and spikes. Some consider them bait stealers when fishing for panfish.

9. When abundant, they have been reported to eat some bass fry. I think larger ones would eat any ungarded fish that is less than 1" long. Note - Bgill, sunfish, perch, crappie etc all do the same thing. Predator mouth size determines how big of a fish it will consume if it can catch it.

10. Very shallow areas with fine emergent weeds are best for egg laying areas. G.shiners have been observed to be allowed to lay eggs (68F-80F) in LMB nests while the male bass guarded bass eggs.

11. They as aging populations have been reported to get infected with a parasite microsporidian (sporozoan) in the ovaries that reduces the egg production especially for bait producers. I have not seen this problem in my pond.

In the correct situations, I see them as beneficial and helping to diversify the forage base.

Thanks a ton Bill! I really want a middle of the road plan for BG, LMB and the HSB and I wondered how much they compete with BG. Kind of looking for a balanced lake (not just trophy bass) and I am currently worried about the LMB and the HSB putting too much pressure on the BG and just looking for something extra (though I will feed the HSB and BG).

I too have caught shinners in ponds with hook.

Meadowlark - Finally a little controversy. Things were getting too dry around here. Thanks Meadowlark for getting this started. I think this board thrives on discussion. I think it makes it better; at least more interesting. Here is more of my opinions on this topic.

Firstly you asked for input good or bad, positive or negative. I provided several facts and maybe a couple disadvantages (including one expert opinion) about gizzard shad. I figured others would provide plenty of the positive side. I often try and present the alternative view so both sides are available. Often views or articles are biased toward an objective. See later.

Note I did not say that I thought g.shad should never be stocked into a pond or lake; that was Huner's opinion not mine. Reread my postscript. You seemed to focus primarily on the small negative part of my Nov 8 post.

Secondly. Reread Kendric's PBoss article which I think was pretty good and informative if you are primarily interested in growing trophy LMB. I do not dispute what he says. But he implies or leads one to believe that g.shad will are okay for most all private waters for growing large bass. He needs to remember the research he cites was from southern waters and all the research was from fertilized or nutrient rich waters. Not all ponds fit that mold or description. In less nutrient rich waters food items become limiting and fingerlings and panfish rely more on plankton and start competing intra and inter species wise more aggressively due to the lower food amounts. In these situations I think they do not need shad as extra competitors, especially if trophy bass are not the GOAL.

Kendric Nutt in the PB article qualified as prerequsites the stocking of G.shad that the lake /pond should be fertilized and it should have bass in the 24-28" range that are capable of consuming the larger g.shad (10"-12") so they (shad adults) do not overpopulate. None of Kendric's references dealt with studies of fishery populations in the presence of over abundant shad populations. Those studies do exist. Kendric's article and referenced studies assumed unlimited plankton communities. Shad are proven consumers of the larger forms of zooplankton and their presence does have a definate impact of the species structure and composition of the zooplankton community. This is what biomanipulation ecology is based on.

Thirdly. Kendric stated that the typical large g.shad he sees is 12". If g.shad only grew to "12 & smaller" they would be even more acceptable in my opinion as forage fish. Bring Kendric to northern Ohio where g.shad live longer than they do in the south and I will show him lots of g.shad 15" to 19" long. I could even send home with a truck load of them. LMB would need to be abt 30" to 38" long to eat these oversized shad. (note, a 38" bass weighs abt 35 lbs, maybe 38 lbs with a freshly eaten 3 lb shad; nice bass!).

Fourthly. I would like to talk or email Kendric. Does he participate and have an alternative handle on this forum? I want to ask him if his MS thesis study looked at bgill in unfertilized ponds and if he studied bgill feeding habits during winter in ice covered ponds?. Better yet I would like a copy of his MS Thesis to study and learn from. Winter feeding bgills (large and small) rely heavily on large sized zooplantkon to maintain body condition when aquatic insects are basically dormant or not active or emerging. Large sized zooplankton are the first to disappear when shad are present. His MS thesis study may not have been all inclusive regarding bgill feeding. Plus in his article he noted he studied only small bgill for his research and did not study feeding habits of large and trophy bgill. He might have assumed too much from his study.

Kendric's article is primarily what I was referring to above about presenting the "other side" of the argument. I think the goal of his PB article was to promote g.shad for raising large bass which he convincingly performed. But he did little to warn of any disadvantages of using g.shad, and as far as his article explains, there are no disdvantages of stocking g.shad. I tend to disagree somewhat. I do disagree with his quote that "scientific research ... shows proof that there is no downside to stocking shad". The average pond owner and reader has to be able to put everything he stated into context when they read and believe that statement. I'm not sure many can do this without extensive ecology /fishery backgrounds. G.shad can be good or bad depending on the pondowner's goals and management methods. I am trying to present the other side of the picture. Always be careful what you believe from what you read. This includes what I "print". There is always another side to the story.

As I always say "It all depends".

PS - Rarely is a rearing pond or any pond at a fish hatchery indicative of a typical private sport fish pond. Hatchery ponds are subject to intensive management and rarely are they neglected to the point of most private ponds. I also question your comment about the results from Todd's rearing pond; also it is no doubt fertilized and monitored "fairly" closely. How big are the fish allowed to get in this pond before it is routinely harvested?.

Bill,

Thanks for the enlighting discussion. I totally agree with you that we all learn more when multi sides/views are presented on a topic.

I believe that another important point in the Pond Boss article, in addition to fertilization, is artificial feeding. It's just common sense that with gizzard shad in the food chain, artificial feeding the bluegills could only help minimize any potential food conflict impacts.

Out of the shad I purchased, some were fairly large...maybe as large as 6 to 8 inches. I'm hopeful those are the ones that will survive the predation to spawn next spring...but the massacre in my pond I spoke of portends few if any survivors. It is something to behold.

Also, it could very well be that these gizzards don't have the life expectancy that your more northern fish have and thus may not reach those corresponding lenghts. I'm looking forward to seeing some results by this time next year.

Thanks again for the discussion....and are we the only pond meisters on this forum with any experience/interest in gizzard shad?

...I tried to eat one once.

All the tobasco sauce in the world wouldn't help that one.

A little more on this topic.

We and others in northern area have the larger gizzard shad eating fish pellets along with the bgill. This behavior does make the large shad more vulnerable to pedation by large bass.

Many of the other experts and forum participants are still very busy "in the field" until colder weather sets in. You won't see much inpit from them until things slow down for them. Most of my time is lab work so I have evenings available to "do the forum stuff". Maybe you can renew this topic in January?.

LBuck - Prepared as pickled herring is about the only way they are tasty or ground up an fed to the cat.

Gizzard shad in the 2 pound + range are sometimes foul hooked in Lake Texoma and in the Red River below the dam.

bill, i have a pet cat, not a typical one, he is a 40 pound bobcat. i have had him since 1990. he loves canned tuna, but is not wild about fresh fish, which seems odd. he loves quail, pheasant, and rabbits.

LBuck, do you have any pictures of your bobcat? That would be cool to see.

Has anyone heard of Shad Fest that happens around New Hope PA, and Lambertsville NJ on the Delaware River when the shad are running?

I'm not sure if these are gizzard shad or not, but people do try to eat them (at least during this festival).

sunil, i do not have any digital computer downloads of painter the bobcat, but will have some as soon as i purchase a digital camera

LBuck,

There is a great story about bobcat in the novel 'sometimes a great notion' by Ken Kesey.

Joe

Is this a novel you've read? Is it long, short, fiction?

LBuck

moderately long fiction, yes, I've read it. It's one of my favorites, about logging in the northwest, shedding some light in the woods.

Joe

Want to see a pond stocked with gizzard shad, catfish, lmb, bluegill, and HSB, come to the farm before May and we'll go in the shocker boat. The shad have been there for at least 3 years.

thanks bill for writing,really enjoy reading your post.how in the heck did you learn so much about this pond stuff.i've got the entire office reading some of your post.keep up the good writing i think every one enjoys reading your material.p.s. how long have you been working with ponds???