Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Help for Second Hand in Indiana

Wyatt from Indiana asks: New to this forum and website so I am not sure how to get my questions (which are many) in a new thread so I am jumping into this one. We have just purchased a piece of property in Southern Indiana that has a 4-5 acre lake. This lake is approx 30 yrs old. I am told that it is 34 ft deep in places. I know absolutely nothing about managing a body of water. So where do I start and in what priority?
The fish we have been catching are large except for the bass. The majority of the bass are in the 12 inch range but the crappie are on avg 16 inches long and the blugill are about about the size of my open hand. There has not been very many small fish caught. How do I learn what is in the lake?

Ewest provides some advice.
Welcome to the PB Forum Wyatt.

Start with this thread from the archives on population analysis.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92492#Post92492

Then look through the archives for common questions and answers.

Here is a link to pond mgt info in your area. It is dated info but has some good basics.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/publications/fsmgt/fishmgt.pdf

Edited by ewest (March 23, 2008 07:15 PM)

Wyatt. I have a few things for you to do on your pond this spring so we can better help you.
1. Firstly read info ewest provided. It is good home work. Maybe take some notes of things to do and look for as you get aquainted to your pond this spring - summer.

2. I highly suggest that you make a sketch of the pond or get a map from google earth. Then get yourself access to a boat. Then go around the pond taking depth measurements that you will record on your new map. Use a rope with some sort of weight (brick) attached. Maybe make knots in or tape on the rope to recognize depths. Knowing the true max and ave depths can be helpful in long term management practices.

3. Get your self a note book and start measuring every fish that you catch, note its species and what it was caught on (identify lure or natural bait). You and us will need this information to A. know what species to remove, B. how many to remove, C. what size to remove and D. know if you are making any progress as time passes. E. monitor current status of the fishery regardless of year.

4. From your description so far of the fish in the pond it sounds like you have a typical bass heavy pond where there are lots of smaller bass and mostly big panfish. Lots of pond owners would absolutely love to have a pond like that. They strive to achieve that type of fishery. However if your goal is bigger bass then you will need to start to make some adjustments to the fish numbers which we can guide you about this.

These things will keep you busy for now. Let us know when you get some notes and or have more quesions.

Thanks for the quick response and the assistance with this forum and for the links to information. This is a beautiful pond and a unique piece of property and I want to be proactive in managing it.

I have alot of info to collect as has been pointed out. Although I enjoy bass fishing I am leaning more toward a panfish pond for the sport and eating. My concern is that there are to many bass and to little of the smaller crappie and bluegill. I became more concerned when a relative recently fished using live minnows at various depths for 1 1/2 hours and didn't get a bite. He seemed to think that if there was a balanced population he would have at least caught some smaller panfish (crappie).

Next 2 questions
(1) How much growth and/or moss before I get concerned? Some relatives think a small amount is healthy plus they like to run an artificial mouse across the moss top in the corners to catch the bass. I have one huge grass carp in the pond.

(2) What should be my top concern(s)with my pond? (I don't want to get blindsided!)


I am not sure if there are ant catfish or not, although I would think that there are.
Thanks again!

The top concern should always be water quality (DO problems). The link above to pond mgt covers it as well as most other common pond problems.

Wyatt - You mention "My concern is that there are to many bass and to little of the smaller crappie and bluegill."

Keep in mind that BG and crappie can be and usually are very prolific. As you read more info on this forum you will come across info that indicates Crappie (BC - blk crappie) are bad for a pond because they are usually or often over abundant and not larger than 6"-8". In situations like yours where bass are smaller and abundant most all reproduction from BC and BG get eaten by the bass thus leaving a relatively few BG -BC that become large. Thus in your situation as you start to remove bass from the pond the numbers of BG and BC will gradually begin to increase and the catch records will show this -more and more smaller panfish caught. Previous posts here will explain how many bass to remove per acre. Also records should show anglers are gradually catching a few larger bass. When that occurs things are moving in the right direction - more panfish, fewer & larger bass. This is why you and others that fish your pond need to keep catch records - to see the trends over time.

?? 1. How much moss. Well, that is a good question. Ponds have moss. Generally ponds in the northern areas with limestone based soils with clearer water tend to have more moss, aka Filamentous algae - FA. Fertilizers and natural recycling nutrients feed this moss. Another generalization, weedier ponds have less moss -FA. Submerged weeds, plant plankton and FA use and compete for the same foods -nutrients. One often dominates at the expense of the others. IMO a coverage of FA more than 30%-35% in spring or summer is too much. Most prefer no FA but that is not realistic; also I prefer not to die and that is not realistic.

You will not need more grass carp until submerged rooted plants cover over 25% of the pond's bottom. Then think about adding more grass carp. Grass carp do not eat very much if any filamentous algae (aka moss) - it depends.

Ewest covered top concern #2. IMO your top concerns are to do the home work ewest & I gave you in the earlier posts.

Does your pond have a drain?
What is the overflow like? Spillway or pipe?

The pond has 4 large drain pipes.

Initially (back in the late 70s-early 80s) when the pond was constructed records and pictures show just 2 pipes. A look at the old inspection notes show that it was a major concern given the amount of possible water intake. It is not noted when it was changed to 4 pipes.

We had a terrible drought last summer/fall here and the water level loss was very, very, very minimal compared to other ponds in surrounding counties. There are a number of ponds in this county (Greene).I suspect that this pond is spring fed although the son (it was in an estate) who sold us the property could not verify.
Our house has access to a well and it has not gone dry.

We have had some very heavy rainfall in the area this yr but my pond was draining long before the recent heavy rainfall. So I am convinced that this overflow is no longer a concern.

I was pleased to find a couple of pair of crawldad pinchers on the dam (a racoon probably had them for a midnight snack). I was wondering if the pond was occupied by them because I had not seen them or their mud stacks around the pond. This is another source of food for the fish.

Constant slow inflow of spring water will help flush some nutrients so generally FA will not be as bad as it could be without spring water inflow. One big factor determining amount of FA is nutrient concentration of surface water flowing into pond. More nutrients = more FA.

I was leaning toward taking a few of the large BG and Crappie out of the pond. Do you advise to do this or wait until data is collected for a period of time?

I still wonder if there are large bass in the pond. My brother-in-law released 2-3lb and 1-5lb bass last fall that he had caught at a nearby lake. I am not sure whether that was the right thing to do now. If I understand correctly if I start removing bass, then the bass that are left will get bigger and the panfish will increase in number and, over time, various sizes. And all this will not disturb the current larger panfish but it will take some time to fill the size void (if there is one).

Wyatt. We are pretty sure there is a size void providing your data collected so far is representative. That is why we suggest you begin to keep catch / angling records, to get a better "picture" of the existing size structure.

Adding the larger bass was okay if your goal is to produce larger bass. Again you have to decide on a goal large panfish or large bass or try and hit somewhere in between one of these extremes.

IMO you should leave the large crappie and BG in the pond as brood stock. However if after reading the homework, you decide crappie may not be beneficial because they could cause increased management problems then remove the large crappie whenever they are caught. But IMO, never remove the largest BG unless they are females - again, do homework, you should learn to recognize the difference between male and female BG. We can provide a link to an old posted topic if a search does not reveal it for you.

PS: In older ponds, old big wise bass are difficult to catch, even by experienced anglers. That is why they are big because they are angler wise. The old smart fish are only vulnerable just a few times per year depending on the experience and expertise of the angler.

Bill, have you checked your email in the last day?

Bruce, I try to check my email at least twice a day. As I recall I have received nothing from you within 24 hrs. Email to me on that big bgill website is difficult for me to use. By the way I emailed you about difficulty in getting on the BGill site tonight.
Is that cell phone number that I have for you from the LL2 retreat any good yet? Mine is good and always active 9am to 11pm.

I've emailed you several times in the last 24 hours. I guess we should just talk by phone. Nobody has hijacked the website. You've just been made an administrator so you'll need to check in again. Nobody else is having difficulty with the website.

By the way, I checked all of your emails to me and none of them have a phone number that I can call you at. I did however send you one by email earlier, but you must not be getting them.

What are some of the worst vegetation to be on guard for in a body of water?

The last 2 days there has been 60 bass caught with the majority being in the 2lb range. There was one caught right at 4lb. All the fish were caught using a chatterbait and all looked very healthy and fat. The 60 bass were caught at various times of the day and all together in about a time frame of 5 1/2 hours. I even caught one monster crappie on this chatterbait.

Duckweed and FA get a lot of complaints. WRT more advanced plants, since I hardly have any, I am guilty of not remembering much about posts on them.

The fishing has been very good but more difficult with the build up of algae around the edges, on top and below. I understand some locals here use copper sulfate granules to combat this. I have also read that chaleeted copper is less concentrated but more effective.
I have been raking but this is endless.

I do have fish nesting now (pumpkin seeds). I believe the bass, bluegill, and crappie have already spawned.

What is the most cost effective way and less harmful to the fish population with the quickest dissolving time? The pond is 4.45 acres and I am leaning on treating sections.

What is the a line between a pond and a lake?

I think you definitely want to treat in sections - a whole lake full of dying plants (any kind) is begging for water quality problems.

Classic definition: My 1 acre BOW is a lake. Your 10 acre BOW is a pond.

More seriously, a dividing line can be drawn anywhere between, say, 10 and 30 acres. Much material for discussion.

Thanks.
Does one use the copper sulfate granules or the fine powder or is the chaleted copper the way to go?
Maybe it is all the above.

How long do I wait in between section treatments?

I believe chelated copper products are preferrable, but I am leaving actual advice on this to actual experts.

If you can't get a good answer here soon enough for your purposes, look up member Kelly Duffy (professional) and get a hold of him.

Copper Sulfate ( CuSO4 ) can cause problems in a number of ways. It is an option under the right circumstances.

Problems :

One is quick death for fish and lasts a day or so. It happens most often with low alkalinity and CuSO4 combined. It causes the fish's gills to be unable to uptake oxygen and thus a quick death like a DO kill.

A second problem is longer in the making but can kill the entire pond. This occurs when a large area of the pond is treated for weeds , the weeds die as well as the plankton , they not only quit making o2 but as dead plant material uses up the o2 in the decomposition phase you get a full blown DO crash.

Yet another problem is the build up of copper from multiple uses in the pond bottom soil which can be toxic as well.

Still another problem is the effect of treating with CuSO4 when the fish are spawning with eggs/ small fry /yoy as they are much more susceptible to its effects.

GC are less tolerant of CuSO4 than some other fish.

Chelated copper products are much better. If you use CuSO4 learn about its effects first.

See this fact sheet from SRAC:

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/11830457-361fs.pdf

See these with emphasis on Bill Cody and Kelly Duffie's posts :
:
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001155#000001

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002023#000006

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002572#000009

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post38651

This is my second year of owning the property but why am I seeing more of a problem this year over last year?

We had a significant drought in the area last year but my water level was affected very little. This year we have had significant rainfall in the area and the pond has been at draining levels several times already. Has the rain washed nutrients in that would cause the significant difference?

I plan to mix the copper sulfate with water and treat small areas especially the top matted algae. I went out briefly yesterday and hand tossed some in the most effected areas and checked last night and I cannot tell a difference at all. Of course I do not know how fast or slow this works. This is all a learning experience for me.

How do I get in touch with specific members of the group to get professional opinions on matters? A member suggested earlier that I contact a particular member.

Select the "User List" near the top of the screen. Select the letter of the alphabet that the member's name starts with (for "Theo Gallus" you would click on "T"). Scroll through the listing for that letter until you find the member's name, then click on the name to get their profile. Many members list E-Mail addresses, and you can send a Private Message ("PM") to anyone from their profile screen.

If you are looking at a thread that a member has a post in, all you have to do is click on their name at the top left of their post to get to their profile.

After talking with local proffesionals and State Fish Biologist I applied 15 lbs of copper sulfate to this 4.5 acre pond. The algae has drastically cleared up with some remaining on the bottom.

Tonight I found my lone 4-5' grass carp floating in the shallow area in the process of dying. Every now and then he flips his tail but it is only a matter of time. I am surprised in that I figured with the pond being 4.5 acres and 24-30' deep that the carp would be able to survive. I only applied the chemical from the bank and it was a very sunny day.

The remaining fish are very active around the shore and they are all different sizes. They do not look stressed at all. The carp was pretty old so maybe it is a combination of things. The temp have reached the mid to high 80 range the last 2 days. I applied the majority of the chemical Sat morning.