Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Hybrid striped bass???

Several fisheries studies have reported that Hyb stripers and LM bass tend to feed in different zones and are not real competetive for the same food source. However, the smaller the pond and the fewer the number of shallow water habitats,, the MORE the two fishes will interact and compete. Again, if you have to many hogs feeding at the tough someone or every one comes up short. Lots of predators cannot thrive and grow on a small, seasonal, natural food supply. Ample food needs to be abundant year round for good growth and healthiest fish. The exception here is well fed fish with high fat reserves going into winter can survive winter with limited food sources providing food is again abundant in early spring.

Key fact here, is try to keep the number of predators balanced or managed so ample forage items are present year round. The benefit to hyb stripers is they will NOT add extra numbers of predators to the pond each year like bass do. You then, only have to worry about controlling numbers of one predator species instead of two.

If you are having to add fathead minnows to an existing pond,,, then something is wrong with this situation, and it is probably a very unbalanced fishery. You are probably trying to grow too many predators in too small of an area with too few forage fish and Mother Nature is saying THIS WILL NOT WORK IN MY WORLD.

big pond -- I'm leary of shad and with what little knowledge I have of their affects on bg, but that is an option I'm not closed to. Would it be hard to manage two prey fish (bg and something else)?

I'm thinking about starting around 25 per acre at what ever size I can get them after a summer in a cage culture and then pooring the feed to them when the water hits 55 (I think I read that is the correct temp?). Again, I'll just skip on the channels, and first make sure the bass have had a good chance to establish themselves and stablize the bg.

The advice and you folks are very much appreciated!!!!

OK...I am going to have a 9.25 acre lake once it fills up. I DO want to have both Hybrid Strped Bass and Large mouth Bass, along with Blues. What do I need to do, "special" if anything for the hybrids? This will basiclly be an unfed lake for all practical purposses...and no fertilization. Is this possible to do?

Great questions and feedback! Dr. Dave...can a diet of gizzard shad be replaced with yellow perch and blue gill? Will strippers need 10lbs of forage fish to put on 1 lb of weight like the LMB/SMB? Bill C. answered some of my questions in his last post. Right now I'm feeling good about adding some hybrids. If 90% of the fish live in 10% of the water with proper structure etc., then my thinking is the strippers will have plenty of space to cruise the open waters of the lake in their niche areas off the shallows. I have approx. 70% of my lake in the 3-6' depth range and the other 30 % in the 7-14' range at various parts of the lake depending where the clay outcrops have come up and weren't escavated in that area. To date, the LMB are doing great with relative weight, fat and healthy with many YOY and many in the 6-9" range. The adults are few with only 100 or so added over the last couple of years. The bluegill/pumpkinseed are plentiful in the larger size 6-9" range with only a few smaller ones being seen. The YOY are plentiful though from the larger fish. I'm I having a problem with the mid-range size fish? I realize the bass are eating this range size of fish as they grow leaving the larger ones? Will this balance out in time as the LMB grow and begin to eat the larger BG etc.

Thanks again!

Rowly

Good morning, Rowly. I'm reaching the end of my helpfulness here!!

Can a diet of gizzard shad be replaced with yellow perch and bluegill? I don't know, but I suspect not. As Bill C. indicated, the hybrid striped bass really feed best in open water, and seem to be less effective on spiny-rayed, cover seeking fishes. So, based on the studies I have read, growth would be slower on a bluegill/yellow perch prey base. You may simply have to wait a little longer for big hybrids??

Will strippers need 10 lbs of forage fish to put on 1 lb of weight like the LMB/SMB? Again, I don't know. This 10:1 conversion is just a general number that we use so people are realistic in their expectations. It would really be tough to study this, as it will vary depending on the caloric content of various prey items. For example, smallmouth bass will require more pounds of crayfish to grow a pound than they would would on a diet of perch or shad. The calories per pound are lower for crayfish than fish. See my point? Anyway, I'd say that you can keep thinking along the 10:1 conversion line for hybrids.

One thing that I've learned over the last couple of years on this Forum is the interest of pond owners in some diversity for their ponds. This is especially true for "truly" interested pondowners. As I read your description of what sounds like a great pond that actually is in pretty darn good shape, I can't help but fall back on my old training -- why fix what ain't broke? All of my early education and experience in pond management always said "keep it simple." I've changed my thoughts and opinions over the last couple of years, as I've come to appreciate the interest in diversity. However, the old strings still "tug" when I read about you wanting to do something new with an already good situation?? Do you understand what I'm saying? I'm not trying to talk you out of this, it just makes me nervous to avoid the "old-time" advice. :-)

Finally, please remember that this is all just speculation. I have NO experience with the hybrid striped bass in ponds. If you go forward with this, I'd sure appreciate an occasional update so we can all learn.

Dave

Rowly, here's an opinion on how to do this. You can add all kinds of species, usually without problems, as long as you do two things. First, keep the numbers of individuals you add very low. In effect, low enough that you don't change your predator/prey relationship. Second, stick to species/hybrids that don't reproduce. This allows you to control numbers much easier. By starting with low numbers, you can always increase numbers if and when you choose.

I agree with that NORM K.
This is how I think of my pond management..

Sounds like good advice to me!

I like Norm's advice too especially when adding a second or third predator. Managing reproducing predators is sort of difficult because you cannot count them on a routine basis "because they do not come into the barn at night". You have only a general idea what's out there underwater unless you do some sophisticated or detailed fish sampling.

That a good term, I like..."non reproductive preditors" ...

Dave, Norm, Bill and others....great thought and comments on this topic. I agree with you Dave but the "little guy" inside me says if 90% of the LMB/forage base fish are living in approx. 10% of the water then I'm not using the lake to its fullest potential. Knowing Hyb stripers are "non-reproductive" and will enjoy the more open unused waters of the lake (the other 90% of the equation). As Norm says if I add low #'s of stripers I should be able to control them easier if needed or increase the #'s if it meets my goals and objectives? MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT....now all I need is to find some 3-5" in the Michigan area...does anyone know of a supplier in my geographic location. Lastly, what's your thoughts on my mid range size BG from my last post....I'm I having a potential problem here or will nature run its course and correct the sizes as the predators grow and consume their recommended sizes? Thanks

Rowly

I had not thought about where to get them -- can they ship them overnight?

Here is what I think is happening with the white bass and hybrids in our lake. We have both and until Dave Willis showed me how, I really couldn't tell them apart.

That I know, we have very little open water forage in our lake. Any small fish, of any species, that gets into open water gets eaten very quickly. That means that even though we might have quite a bit of open water space, it contains little forage. I'm guessing that this is true of most small lakes. What this means is that the white bass/hybrids must compete with the LMB for bluegill forage.

If the hybrids are fed pellets, they will grow well, of course. Otherwise, they are likely to grow slowly due to low amounts of open water forage. That is true of the white bass in our lake. We haven't had the hybrids long enough to know if that will be true for them as well.

I find these fish to be a good addition to our lake. They are easy to catch and fight well. I don't ever remember having one swallow the hook. That means I think they have very good catch and release success. A person could enjoy catching and releasing them for a long time.

There are two things that need to be identified. First, how many per acre are "low numbers"? I pulled the number of 5-10 per acre out of the air but remember where that number came from. Second, about how many need to be restocked each year?

i ordered mine from jones fish in cinny. they go to indiana and southern mich.. Rowly you can probably meet them somewhere by detroit. might be a pain , timing it right though. :rolleyes: (if your by windsor area) stoney creek might have a line on them. i was very happy with the 5-7" fish , all where very healthy. i also put in some golden shinners to meet the $150 free delivery.

Rowly – I think your reasoning is good, especially if you stick with a low number of hybrids, at least initially. You have one big advantage, which is the size of your 19 acre pond. That’s a good size water body. You’ve probably heard me talk about that 22-acre pond that we manage not too far from campus. Well, my son caught a 28-inch walleye there when we were fishing last Saturday. So much for MY traditional advice about walleyes being a poor choice for small water bodies, eh?? I’m only half serious, as there are drawbacks. However, I’m really starting to understand his “diversity” thing. :-)

One thought. Is your pond relatively secure from big outflows? Contrary to popular opinion, the hybrid striped bass are fertile. If your hybrids escaped, the males probably would spawn with any native white bass females in the area. This is in the “for what it’s worth” category. :-)

Now, on to your specific question. “Lastly, what's your thoughts on my mid range size BG from my last post....I'm I having a potential problem here or will nature run its course and correct the sizes as the predators grow and consume their recommended sizes?”

Here is what you indicated earlier. “To date, the LMB are doing great with relative weight, fat and healthy with many YOY and many in the 6-9" range. The adults are few with only 100 or so added over the last couple of years. The bluegill/pumpkinseed are plentiful in the larger size 6-9" range with only a few smaller ones being seen. The YOY are plentiful though from the larger fish. I'm I having a problem with the mid-range size fish? I realize the bass are eating this range size of fish as they grow leaving the larger ones? Will this balance out in time as the LMB grow and begin to eat the larger BG etc.”

Do you believe that your fish community has sort of “settled” into this description? In other words, has it been somewhat stable like this for a while?? If so, I think you simply are in a situation tending toward high predator abundance, but not a problem situation. I have seen a lot of bluegill and a few pumpkinseed populations where most fish are in that 6-9 inch range. In most cases, the intermediate size fish are rare because of predation on the small sunfish. Few of the young sunfish produced each year get past the gauntlet of predators. The sunfish that do survive don’t have much competition, and they tend to grow fast. They sort of “stack up” at the lengths you have because those are pretty darn nice fish, and they add weight faster than length at that size. So, that’s why I asked if you think you might be somewhat stable. Pond communities can exist where yours currently is, but it’s sort of on the edge. I have seen ponds stay quite stable in this state, so that is certainly possible. Whether that answer describes your pond is, I guess, up to you do decide. :-) Have you noticed that professional biologists are sort of wishy-washy about their answers?? We always see things in grey, rather than black or white. I think you just get more gun-shy the longer you have been in the business.

If anyone else has any opinions on he “stability” of Rowly’s pond community, we’d be glad to hear them.

Dave

Dave, great thoughts and I'm sorry for the delay but I wanted to get my head around this, and here it goes:
1. "on overflow", my lake is excavated farmland, no streams/rivers...just open space and farmland for miles.
2. Background History.. in 2001 I bought property/house with then a 17 ac lake still active gravel pit. Fish...numerous and stunted mostly small rockbass and yellow perch with a few large 11-14" perch. Water very clear and infertile to 14 feet- no waterfowl. Started adding adult BG/pumpkinseed in 2001 and 2002 pre-spawn. Totals approx 1000 adults @ 70-30% BG highest #'s. To date, up to 4 spawns of BG thru 2004. Started adding adult LMB in 2001 with a. 20 from other gravel pits. In 2002 added a. 20 more..starting predators slowly but wanted the perch #'s reduced as the prefered fish of choice. In April 2003 added 2 groups of 50 adult LMB- bought from 2 locations..trying to create a good gene pool for the future YOY. Caught and added a. 20 SMB to mix. TOTALS...140 ADULT lmb and 20 adult SMB.
3. RESULTS..started seeing a small amount of YOY LMB/BG in summer 2002 (asked Bill Cody question how to ID YOY on this forum and he gave as always great detailed info.) Yellow perch #'s reducing and starting to grow and show better relative weight as they are being targeted by the predators I believe. Spring 2004- good #'s of 6-9" and YOY LMB but not heavy #'s yet (eg. fishing last week for 1 hour caught 6 lmb all 6-12", 30 perch 6-10" with good weight and 5 rockbass which I cull ALL since 2001. Used a 3" twister tail on a spinner jig only.

Therefore, I believe the lake is "not stable" but still growing and adjusting with all the new fish filling the space both predator and forage. All fish not yet numerous in biomass even the 10% ratio of heavy concentration. Added some 16 domestic ducks/geese last year, grown to a. 100 to date helping the lake in my northern lake fertilization program.. HA!HA! Less clear water but still 5-7' and more zooplankton growth etc. When visually surveying the lake from our water bikes I don't see "high predator abundance" or when fishing as well. Even my open water areas have some weed growth at the bottom so the forage fish can swim/move and still hide in this water space.

Sorry for the run on but I wanted to get the info. out to ya all. Thanks for your thoughts on this subject and as always respect and wait for your knowledgeable comments/insights. Bill C. what do you think, I'm I doing things wrong and could my thoughts be incorrect???

Rowly

Ah ha – this makes perfect sense!! Thanks, Rowly.

You certainly are right on target – you have an expanding fish community, not a stable one. You can really see the expansion (population growth) in your description of the largemouth bass.

I think that I’m going to “stick with” my assessment of your panfish. I think they are being cropped pretty heavily by the bass. So the big adults reproduce, there are lots of young sunfish (and perch), but there are few intermediate panfish because of predation on the small guys (as I described above).

Part of the reason I believe this is the nature of your water body. Assuming that things are similar in your area to our, which isn’t necessarily true; let me pass on some observations on the gravel pit type of ponds. Up here, anyway, the gravel pits tend to be a lot less productive. Our “hill ponds” (meaning a dam across a draw, with runoff from the watershed supplying the water) tend to be pretty darn fertile because of our fertile soils. A few years ago, we did population estimates on 10 ponds, and the ponds AVERAGED 65 pounds of largemouth bass per surface acre of water. Pretty darn high! We also did an estimate on a 13-acre gravel pit just a couple miles east of town. Now, this is a typical, excavated gravel pit, fed by ground water, not by surface runoff. That pond is clear, gorgeous, has an island – very aesthetically pleasing. Guess what the biomass estimate was for that pond? 33 pounds of largemouth bass per acre of water. This appeared to be a “crowded” largemouth bass population, with many fish under 12 inches long. They were a little thin (except for the few big ones that popped through the bottleneck) and average growth was a little slow. My point here is that these simply are not as productive of waters, and can’t support as many pounds per acre of fish. That’s not a problem, it’s just the nature of the beast.

So, my “low productivity” message really relates back to your prey fishes. I suspect the predators (largemouths in this case) are pretty darn effective given the clear water, steep sides (all of ours have steep sides, anyway) and limited protective cover. Even when there is plant growth, it usually falls back by early fall, and then the predators can really get at the panfish.

I just love the clear-water gravel pits. I work with a guy about 10 miles north of 10 that has three gravel pits; we manage each with a different combination of fishes. He calls his ponds “aquariums” and he loves to stand on top of a sand pile, and watch the fish below (polarized sunglasses). They are gorgeous.

Anyway, that’s my latest take. Yes, let’s hope that Bill reads through this and pipes in as well!

Dave

Rowly, can you tell if any of your SMB have spawned?

Thanks.

Rowly, you might find this interesting. List of species allowed in Ontario. 38 in total, sure beats my 6. Ontario aquaculture.

Dave, bingo, I agree....My gravel pit lake is within a large gravel/sand vein extending over miles cupped into a thick clay lining holding very clear ground water. When I first moved to the property the lake was very blue and infertile. I'm hoping today it is more fertile with the change in water color to a more greenish color and half as clear but still clear. By adding the 5 ducks/geese per acre ratio I'm thinking this has helped... by adding their natural northern fertilization dung. My goal was to get to the 50 lb+ of LMB per acre range. Time will tell as they continue to multple and grow.

I agree with your conclusion that my "intermediate forage fish 2"-5" range are being consumed heavily with appropriate size LMB. As I said to Bill C. before I believe I must be living near a nuclear plant with the rapid growth in predator/forage fish outside this range. I'm I correct to think that as those 6-9" LMB grow to the 12-16" range the pressure will reduce on the mid range size bluegill and thus more will show up?
All my fish sizes show healthy relative weight both predator and forage. One of my goals was to reduce the #'s of perch and increase their sizes into a more eatable size fish and this is indeed happening over the past 2-3 years. To date, I have not taken any fish from the lake but next year I will change that thought.

SUNIL...with only a. 20 adult SMB added so far to the lake it is hard to tell and see if I have any YOY SMB without seining. I have caught some adults though near the 3-4 tonnes of rock and concrete pile I created near my bridge out to the 2 islands. Time will tell if they can survive and maintain their own in this environment with heavy pressure from the growing LMB? Keep your fingers crossed.....

Great threads.....

Rowly

Rowly -- you asked a final question in your last response.

"as those 6-9" LMB grow to the 12-16" range the pressure will reduce on the mid range size bluegill and thus more will show up?"

The correct answer is: only time will tell. That will depend on what happens to your largemouth bass population. My prediction is that you will end up with too many small largemouths, and predation on the perch and sunfish will continue as is. However, I always tell my students that I'm wrong about half the time. Every pond has its own habitat characteristics, and that habitat is what allows bass density to be low, moderate, or high. Of course, you, as the manager, can adjust that bass density through selective removal. So, you don't have to let it get to a high largemouth bass abundance.

As for harvest, my goodness -- you've got 17 acres of water. Yes, indeed you can start to harvest some fish to eat, especially as I can "hear" the caution in your words. :-)

Dave

Hey Dave Willis, you only told your students half of the story. You should have told them that you had no idea which half was correct.

Thanks Dave for your wisdom and as you said..."time will tell". In the meantime I will monitor closely as I have been and start a selective harvest of LMB when needed.....

Wood so how's the great white north, did that polar bear drive come thru the city this year....HA!HA! Only six species ah.....but the best six I'm told. You could tap into all that oil and fuel some heaters for the water and make it tropical for the winter? Have you experimented with Artic Char? The University of Guelph has had quite a bit of success with them... raising them for market and helping their costs. Great market I'm told here for their volume output.

Rowly

Davd D. -- Good point!! :-) I'll have to save that one for when I am really trying to make a strong impression.

Dave