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Meadowlark,
Interesting post. So far, it seems like you and I have either experienced or have been exposed to a negative factor of working with the NRCS. Kinda odd that the first 6 or so different offices that I worked with during the property search were so impressive that I confessed that I enjoy paying taxes if it is supporting that specific government agency. Then, the last two were luke-warm; unfortunately, this is where I wound up (ain't it always the way). It wasn't a horrible experience....it just lacked from the unbelieveable attention and service I got from the others. Quite frankly, I was prepared to go the course with this NRCS office until I met my contractor and got his background; what a great second choice. There is another factor that I did not mention. My decision to go forward with this project was made Spring 2005 and I wanted to be running heavy equipment by Fall 2005. Based on my education from the other NRCS offices, the wheels can turn slow on "gotta do it now" projects, particularly during "the season".

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Brettski:

Not saying your course of action is right or wrong. I just did it different. I'm lucky in that the gal that does this stuff at our local NRCS office is really INTO it. She loves her job, and really makes an effort to get the projects done for as many as possible. Admittedly, our county (Louisa) is not as busy as some around us, as we don't seem to get as much funding as others.

My point was that this route simply lets you set a level playing field for all contractors to play on (a set of design plans). If one says "I'll do this and that" and another says "yeah, but we could add this or you need to consider this other feature" it leaves it up to you to decide what the better deal really is. Price would be secondary.

It's all good and fun...


In a lifetime, the average driver will honk 15,250 times. My wife figures I'm due to die any day now...



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I have a post on here somewhere (10 - 12 acre lake) where I chronicled my experience and solicited advice. Probably the biggest suggestion I would add from that experience is to build your dam last to ensure you have time to do the rest. Ironically though, I bet there is someone out there somewhere who did their structure and all that first only to find out they couldn't get their dam to hold water with the advice to build the dam first. I guess each situation is truly different. Read and get all the advice you can. It'll pass the time through winter. Have fun! :-)


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Matt: You are absolutely right. Funny you should mention an enthusiastic gal...I also had an outstanding encounter with a CD agent that was a gal. The service was absolutely unbelieveable...and this was only to help me (during my search) to consider a property with an existing pond. She actually gave me her cell number and fielded my calls from her home on a Saturday night! I wrote a letter to her boss to praise her service and commitment.
Ranger: We plan to use a constuction drain made from 6" PVC and a gate valve on the downstream side of the dam. This will eliminate water accumulation, giving us plenty of time.

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OUCH!!!
Some of these prices are downright scary. I guess I should consider myself lucky. I recently had a small pond (little less than 1/2 acre) put in for $950. It took a little more than 2 days. The dozer (D4) operator charges $50 per hour.

This is the first of two or three ponds I will be putting in. If my next (larger and more involved than the first) costs anywhere these prices I would have to think twice about doing it.

Some photos of the project. www.snapfish.com
To sign in use my email address darinalexander@bellsouth.net, password is 12345.
Then open first farm pond.

Since finding Pond Boss it has become one of my regular sites I visit. Great site everyone.

Darin

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Brettski:

You raise a good point. I never have told her boss how much I appreciate all of her help. I think I'll do that right now. Without her pushing, neither of my ponds would've ever gotten done, let alone partially PAID for!


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Matt: good call...."they never remember when you do it right, only when you do it wrong". Every good deed needs to be hi-lited to upper management.
Darin: When we interviewed contractors for our project, we did have a low-ball pricing option to consider. Because of the size of the project and the specific and considerable details involved, I had pass on their offer. Thank goodness for the time I spent over the course of 3 - 4 years with different NRCS offices, learning the "pond trade" to the extent that I knew what to look for and expect. When I found the guy we ultimately awarded the work, I knew we were going to be paying more. He walked the walk and talked the talk. My personal test was: can I lay out a specific plan with this guy, never be there to see it executed, and go when it is done to find exactly what was planned? He met this test, I went with him, and he delivered. I am a frugal guy, and my pockets are not deep, but this was way too big a project for me to pinch pennies and take a risk.

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Hope this works!

Brettski, you seemed surprised at the co$t I posted... this shows the "character and unique design" we wanted.

You have been invited to visit a photo album
http://photobucket.com/albums/b165/ahvatsa/

Will be adding more pictures, 80 tons of rock and gravel due to arrive today.

Click slide show.

ALL COMMENTS WELCOMED!

Learned alot, 2 more ponds planned for next year.

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Ahvatsa,
V Cool! Nice job on the fotos. Although you and I are compatible in the 5 Ac range, we are working with a much different project, overall. No surprise, tho...I s'pose it's safe to say that ponds are like snowflakes. A few questions: Your project looks like a low spot amidst 200a of gradual slope. Did you have to create a dam? If no, how do you channel off excess? Where did you put the soil waste? Were you able to borrow the required clay liner from within the pond, or did you have to truck it in? Do you have a drain? If no drain, I'll bet the weather created alot of the cost???
Anyway, it's a great looking project at any cost. Congrat's on a beauty!
Bski

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Brett

Used an existing dam, and only backing up a few feet of water. 2 1' pipes drain to creek first and emergency spillway will drain if they fill...I hope. Note: this was orginally a 1/2a pond we cleaned and enlarged. Used same spillway location as when first built. This area (western Wilson Co.) south of San Antonio has excellent clay to 30'. We did have to pack a small sand spot in old channel.No soil waste. Built a 150x150' pad on hill overlooking. Pad was dug to 10' to get to clay on clay. No drain, 3 Honda pumps.

best of luck.

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Bski, you'll find as many bottom designs as you will ponds, the only differences being that some have more fish-appeal than others. On the bottom of my pond, I had an excavator construct many elongated hills, the tops of which rise to within twelve to eighteen inches of the water surface. Of course, beside each hill is a hole. My huge oversight was not connecting all the holes with large ditches, with the final ditch running into a sump area where the drain is located. I do have one ditch that runs across the pond, and the fish seem to like gathering along that ditch. Also, a thick stand of fairly large willows grew along the periphery of the pond which I cut below the waterline. The fish like that also. I pulled in and staked down about fifteen trees and now realize that ten or so large PVC structures would probably have been better. You are fortunate to have found this site while you can still make changes.

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Well, as noted in a previous post I did reach out to the new NRCS agent. Before doing so, though, my contractor had already done so as part of another project he was working on. He assured me that albeit being a very young guy, he was personable and knows his stuff. This is a summary of the NRCS posture on ponds in my area: If it is anything to do with a wetland, they are very interested in engineering and cost-share...if it is a pond, they will help with basic preliminary engineering, but that's about it. Their limited time and resources must remain focused on the better ROI eco-projects. All that being said, tho, he followed up by saying that they appreciate my plan to use the entire parcel to create an eco-friendly nature preserve and arranged a meeting on the property with a state wildlife biologist. The 3 of us walked the property yesterday and discussed any/all options available. I will try to condense everything that Bob the wildlife biologist shared, as follows.

We are working with a mostly heavily wooded habitat...comparatively, this is not attractive to wildlife. It is the short brush, weeds, bushes and grasses that create the best environment. We have a 2 ac corner that is meadow; this lifted their eyebrows and a plan for cost shared native grasses was hatched. Then the pond. He likes the water feature for the overall environment, but it is critical to have shallows that create wetlands, noting that a pond with edges that drop off deep are not eco-friendly. He also said that I will need shallow areas for BG spawn anyway (I already learned this from you PB guys and it is planned). He was very impressed to know that I planned wasting soil from the pond bottom around the perimeter to create a "shelf" that will allow walking and driving access. This shelf should also receive native grasses on a cost share program. He pointed out that a 20-30' wide buffer of native grasses will create far more bio-diversity than the remaining 36 acres of timber. He wants me to find areas along the perimeter with smaller timber that can be sacrificed and cleared back to create little pockets to extend the native grasses into. Even one pocket is a huge improvement. My NRCS agent chimed in by suggesting we continue the native grasses in the 3/4 ac area where we will waste soil behind the dam. I believe he indicated including the actual dam mass....? We then walked into the woods and shifted to timber improvement. From an eco-attitude, less trees and more ground cover. To be practical, we should select areas to remove 75% of the trees and plant ground cover. I have an area of about 1 ac that collects and holds about 6 ac of run-off that is adjacent to the pondsite. It is seasonally wet. It runs away from the pond...my plan is to cut thru a berm and channel it into the pond and drain the area. Based on recommendation, we will remove a bunch of the silver maples growing in this area, "daylight it", and plant deciduous bushes and shrubs to create another eco-zone that is directly adjacent to the pondsite. I hope to include this in the cost-share program.
The government program being utilized is called "wildlife habitat incentive program...W.H.I.P." Basically, they will provide the names of recommended groups to provide products and services. I call, arrange, and manage the project. The govt covers 75% of the cost. The state guy was so interested in making it happen that he mentioned that the state would throw in some additional $ help to the extent that it may cost me very little to execute. They indicated that my contract with the govt would be 5 years.
I am pumped on this one! I told them that I wanted to incorporate this entire project with the pond construction this summer. They are on-board. Bob the bio. thinks that the entire package is a super eco-improvement and should yield excellent wildlife diversity.

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Great post Brettski!

"WHIP" is an excellent Program that should meet or possibly exceed your environmental goals and objectives. Hopefully you will receive all the technical and engineering assistance required to fullfill your dream.

Additional Federal Programs include EQIP - (Environmental Quality Incentive Program) and WRP - (Wetland Reserve Program).

Additionally--------- Remember patience and persistence are key to persuing Government (American taxpayers) cost share dollars.

Good Luck,

Ed

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Thank you Brettski for posting the summary from your wildlife biologist, you are doing what I dream of doing in a few years. Keep us updated as much as possible.

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Thanx for the props, guys! There is gonna be so much going on this year on this project...my head is already spinnin'.
Ceadmin...
besides the forum, my website is the best place for progress (house icon above). It is completely dedicated as a cyber scrapbook for this project. The "Updates" page is the quickest way to summarize progress. I am afraid to start up a "W.H.I.P." button for fear that it may fall apart (superstitious). As things solidify, it will be included.

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Brettski, that is wonderful news. It seems that you are getting some good advise. The advise you are getting is pretty standard and I think should be explained a bit more.

There really isn't such a thing as "wildlife". There are just plants and animals. All of these plants and animals live and are competitive in different environmental conditions. In a changing environment, there are always winners and loosers. In our modern world, the winners are the generalist that live in edge habitat. The loosers are the specialist that live in large, pure habitats of some type.

In general, there are two huge loosers in this country. One is the plants and animals that live in thick, mature forests. The other is the plants and animals that live in large prairie areas. The plants and animals that need these two types of habitat are in a huge decline.

The whole country is becoming edge habitat. Your plan will certainly increase the numbers of these types of species. I'm not saying this is bad. It's a lot like putting a dam over a creek. The winners are the species that live in a lake. The loosers are the species that needed the stream to live in. Lake species are very common while species that need streams to live in are in decline.

I hope this explains the concept of "wildlife habitat" a bit more.


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Norm,
Thank you for the input.
When we entered the property, the state biologist and I spent about 10 minutes discussing what I have and what I wanted to do. In a nutshell, I told him I wanted to turn the 44 ac I own into an eco-friendly nature preserve that would attract and support as much wildlife and bio-diversity as possible. Naturally, they would have rather seen a wetland instead of a pond, but conceded that having a pond was by no means a negative in the big picture. We did not, however, have any areas developed specifically with prairie grasses. In fact, the entire region is fertile farmground. What isn't farmed is either timber or the small towns that dot the area. We have one of those timber patches. I presume his advice was based on my own little eco-project melded in with the needs of the entire region. He kept coming back, as you noted, to the "edge habitat" that we so sorely lacked. He also was very interested in some area of the pond being preserved as a shallow wetland. We had plans of doing this anyway. I was somewhat surprised by his inference that the heavy timber was not such a huge provider of this diversity that we seek. He shared a story: similar region, he visited a proud new owner of about 100 acres of thick, mature hardwood timber that wanted the same as us...wildlife and bio-diversity. He said he had a hard time telling him that the first step is to cut down a bunch of his prizes to allow the daylighting necessary to grow weeds, grasses, bushes, and shrubs...didn't go over well.
We truly hope this comes together for a second very good reason. I may not only have someone else plant these areas, but it might get paid for with tax dollars...and only a 5 year commitment. Lastly, this is exactly the "look" we wanted for this property. It matches my vision of the final product very well.

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W.H.I.P. update....
My wildlife habitat improvements are a combination of 5 - 7 different areas (depending on how you hook 'em up). They are all fairly small by themselves, but in combo will meet the required $1000 min of cost share value under WHIP. The problem: a large portion of it will be in the pond construction site...and this won't be done until later this fall. My NRCS agent strongly recommends that I wait until all the dirt is moved and we have a very clear picture of the improvements required, particularly the specific amount. As Norm and Ed will likely attest, when you make the deal to plant the acreage, you have to plant the acreage.
And, if you come up short...you come up short. There is not enough work available to split it up and do 1/2 & 1/2 at $1000 per. So, he sent me back directly to the State biologist to see if they would take it over. I went directly to the bio. at the DNR. Yep, they will handle it piece-meal. He worked up a proposal for the parts that are ready now. I looked it over. It's kinda slight on the cost share and it is a 10 year commitment. I talked it over a little with my NRCS agent and his original wisdom has become my posture: I am gonna wait until next spring to do the entire package with the NRCS sponsered WHIP program. I feel it will be a better economical choice and only a 5 year commitment. As much as I want to get a full year of growth on the sections that are ready now, I gotta chill and do the right thing to yield the best ROI.
Note to Norm, Ed, or any other savvy wildlife development gurus: I have a 1.75 ac meadow that is enclosed on 3 sides with trees, the 4th is open to the many ac of farm field that surround our timber. I plan on planting a conifer shelterbelt to enclose this 4th side. Within the remaining meadow, we want to go with various native grasses and wildflowers (the DNR showed this as Forbs, right?) We are bird lovers; this is what I noted to the DNR when they responded with this blend. Any other ideas?

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Brettski,

Your ideas sound good to me! I am a big fan of conifers for various reasons, wherever I can get them established. Take for instance today! - stop drifting snow, wildlife and livestock protection, improved moisture conservation and aesthetics to name a few.

Your ideas for native grasses and forbs (flowering plants other than weeds and grasses) are good. Remember, if you plant forbs with your native grasses you will be very limited with your chemical weed control efforts. \:\(

Good luck,

Ed

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Brettski, I have some experience with prairie plants. Unfortunately, I think you will be fighting a loosing battle. The trees will invade this small prairie very quickly. You will have to mow this prairie every year and burning will also help. Still, the trees will shade much of this prairie and prairie plants do very poorly with shade.

Bruce Condello, can you add some of your experiences with your CRP bottom land? This grassland was completely overtaken by trees.

Bring up these concerns to your local biologist and ask their advice. I love prairies. After you have visited with your local biologist, post their thoughts and I can add some ideas for you to consider.


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Ed,
Yeah, I haven't got a single conifer in the entire 44 ac; it's mostly hickory, maple, cherry, and walnut. Man, I love them pine trees. I really wanted to plug in Easter White Pine (listed as a top-shelf player in my region and soil), but both the NRCS and State bio. waved me off unless I install appropriate deer forage protection (nope, too much work & too many trees). Instead, they recommend Norway Spruce. I'm not crazy about this option because they look so droopy when they really mature, but I s'pose I shouldn't be concerned....by the time that happens I will likely be their fertilizer. Regarding chem. weed control, I anticipate that when all this stuff really takes root and grows, it's gonna be 2 - 3 years and weeds will be part of the show anyway. There will be an initial Round-up before planting, but I foresee only random cuttings thereafter once or twice a year.
Norm,
When we discussed maint, the bio. did make a special point to me that I have responsibility to keep the tree-lines at bay. He said that there would be random cuttings that should take care of that when done at the perimeter. I will admit that this advice was given when the only plantings were WWNG...not the flowers. I suppose mowings of flowers may be their annual death blow...?
Thanks to both you and all my new PB comrades for the support and help. This, like the fish thing, is a level that I never thought I would aspire to in my life...and luvin' it. \:\)

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Brettski, I just got done planting hundreds of seedlings of various types on my land. All there was were a handful of Virginia and Pitch/Loblolly pines on mine when I got it ... like yours it was hardwoods dominated by poplar, black cherry, and walnut. The seedlings I planted included shortleaf, eastern white, and loblolly pine. There are lots of deer out there but I didn't protect the seedlings. If you plant a large number some will get damaged by wildlife, some will come through unscathed, and some will even be eaten/killed. But as long as it's not a lawn or manicured & landscaped type setting it doesn't really matter. There are already lots of imperfect, mishapen, deformed, and gnarled trees naturally in the woods. Rodents and deer will quit bothering pine trees after they get to a certain size, and if you plant a good number some will survive. You probably have inexpensive seedlings available through the state forestry service. If the quantities are too large or the prices aren't right in Illinois, most of the surrounding states will sell to out of state too.

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Actually, I'm just having fun with photos!

The old saying: "A picture is worth a thousand words" is somewhat true here.
We enclose "specimen" trees inside a 6 ft. diameter woven wire game fence to keep predators off our best trees. Two 8 ft. steel posts hold the wire and the trees are planted into a geotextile fabric to hold down weed competition.

These "tree rings" although difficult to see, just happen to protect new aspen seedlings.

This mule deer fawn and several of her relatives are kept off these very young and vurnable trees.




Just thought I would through this picture in of "old Blue". We finally received some much needed moisture this week!



Black lump in the back of the pickup is a very cold, but happy black lab.

Ed

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God's country is worth the hassle of tire chains...beautiful terrain!
No, I don't see myself using wirecloth or netting or any protection. I'm followin' Eric's path, tho I may relent to short needles that are less attractive to deer...and man I have deer big time. There is one area that is existing hardwood that I am going to thin out and plant conifers in with it...about 1/4 ac. It is off to the side of the damsite and will create a screen as it is right at my property line. The bio and NRCS both said that the Norway Spruce will grow OK under the existing hardwood canopy, particularly if it is daylighted a little.

an aerial of the parcel...north is up. The 1.75 ac meadow is center/right. The open area in the access lane is the other zone for a tree line along the driveway and the balance planted with WWNG. This pic is pre-pondsite clearing. Norm...do you see issues with my plans in these areas?


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Edward, fantastic pics! The wife & I were supposed to have a Wyoming vacation last fall. But we ended up having another child so the vacation got pushed out a year or two. Old Blue looks almost exactly like my neighbor's farm truck.

Brettski, one thing worth mentioning is that Eastern white pine is somewhat shade tolerant (especially when immature) and most if not all the other pine species native to our general area need full sun. Hemlock is one conifer you might consider that is heavily shade tolerant and will grow under the hardwood canopy. (It's a slow grower, but deer seem to bother it much less than white pine) I'm kind of a stickler for planting native trees only, so Norway spruce won't work in the regard.

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