Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Catch N 8 NTex, PondGuppy, BarbaraE, Cloudfeather, Chadsnider
18,574 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics41,080
Posts559,319
Members18,576
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,686
ewest 21,541
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,175
Who's Online Now
3 members (catscratch, nvcdl, Angler8689), 675 guests, and 326 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#100043 10/21/07 11:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
Eric have you heard of Barry Smith of Montgomery, Alabama? He is a fisheries biologist and he co-owns American Sport Fish in Pike Road, Alabama? He is kind in your neck of the woods, MS being next to AL.

Below is a link to a set of articles interviewing him about raising trophy CNBG. He feeds catfish type quality small pellet feed sometimes for only what they can eat in five minuets 4 or 5 times a day.

That is pretty much contrary to everything I have heard on the forum. But Cecils last post got me to thinking about feeding different size fish different % of protien feed.

BTW Cecil if other fish aren't feeding on the top, wont the pellets just drop to the bottom when they become soft? I kind of do that now for FH's and very small BG by throwing pellets in real shallow water. The small fish can't take a pellet but once it sinks and is soft then they nibble and take pieces off the soften pellets.

I was hoping for some of you to read these short articles and give some feedback on what he says.

http://www.nighthawkpublications.com/journal/journal164-1.htm


I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Bill I do know Barry and have purchased fish from them before including their CNBG. I have read their info and it is the same as what is here on the forum. Here are some 2in and 3-5in CNBG from them. BG can eat a little many times a day (small stomach).





Last edited by ewest; 10/21/07 07:51 PM.















Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
Eric, the pictures were great.

I was referring to Barry saying he fed $10 a bag catfish type food.

I have raised cattle, hogs, and always had dogs. Fish is new. I know that in some animals after a certain point feeding protein feeds over a certain % has no value, and in older dogs I have had vet.'s tell me it can be harmful to feed high protein feeds. Even humans that go on all protein diets can get protein poisoning. But I dont think any fish food would be high enough to do that.

I was just wondering what people thought about feeding lower protein feeds maybe along with higher protein feeds in places where smaller fish feed.

Also with bluegill they continue to grow in size for several years after reaching sexual maturity. But I wonder at what age/weight high % protein feed loses its value.

Just a long removed ranch boy wanting to get the biggest bang for his feed $.


I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,365
Bill, I will be following this with interset, because I wonder if high dollar feed might be a little over rated. My fish don't seem to notice the difference between $10 33% protein catfish pellets and the $18 and $28 a bag stuff. I suppose that some feeds are better suited for pellet training newly stocked fish, but once they are trained, I wouldn't think there is a lot of difference. I guess that if the protein, fat, and carb analysis are equal, that fish will do equally well on it, regardless of brand. I can't think of other properties in the feed that would matter, except maybe "digestability" or growth hormone-like additives.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
G
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
G
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,794
I'm also going to be looking at multiple feeding times instead of morning and evening.



N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds
Original george #173 (22 June 2002)




Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
B
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,025
Likes: 1
I have found that Game Fish Chow works better than some formulations of equal protein catfish foods. It has a more fishy smell that seems to draw better feeding activity. It also has 3 or 4 sizes of pellets. You may also try catfish food mixed with a high protein fingerling food, which, when mixed seems to impart some of the smell into the other food.


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
This link has some info and a feeding chart.

http://www.americansportfish.com/supplementalfeeding.html
















Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
This what we advise our clients feeding bluegill. good luck.

Water temperature below 55F
Feed only one time per day, during the warmest part of the day. Set the automatic feeder for one second. If fish are not feeding, discontinue feeding until water temperature increases above 55-60F.
Water temperature between 65F and 80F
Feed 4 times per day. Temperatures between 65-80F are ideal for maximize fish growth and production. Bluegill will feed aggressively at these water temperatures. Separating the feedings by a few hours allows digestion of the food prior to next feeding.
Water Temperature between 80F and 90F
Feed 2 times per day during the cooler parts of the day, typically at sunrise and sunset. The amount of food may need to be decreased as temperatures continue to rise. Discontinue feeding when water temperature increases above 90oF and start back up when it drops to 85F or less.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
Bobad, I'd be interest in learning more about this too, but just because they like it doesn't mean they getting all protein they require. I love chocolate candy, but it just makes me fat it doesn't feed my muscle mass and organs. And when I was younger I needed more protein because I was adding bone and muscle mass.

You have a good point too about disgestable protein, some cheap dog foods I know of have a high % of protein but isn't converted very well in the digestion process, so isn't really cheap in the long run.

I've already put in an order and for Aqua Max 500 and 600 so I should be fixed until January when I have been advised to stop feeding. If I had the order to do again I think I would have gotten 400 and 600 since the protein of 500 and 600 are the same.

Burgermeister, I thought about that but although it has different size of pellets isnt it the same % of protein? I have noticed that my smaller fish like to feed closer in in shallow water, while the larger ones stay out further away from the bank in deeper water. I have a cavaet to that later on.

Greg, what you posted makes a lot of sense and I appreciate the post. I noticed something this morning about 7am when I fed. I hand feed at two different locations twice a day. It has been in the mid to high 80's here with for the most part with lows in the mid to high sixties. I have been getting lower activity in the morning than at the dusk feeding. One feeding location has no structure and has a gradual slope that goes to about 7' deep in about 20' out. The other location has a flat shallow area that has a sharp drop off into 8' to 10' of water, and there is heavy brush piles in some of the shallow and deep water. Usually there has been more activity in the gradual slope area and the fish feed for a longer time and there is a mix of larger and smaller fish. In the drop off area there are mostly larger fish that hit hard when the feed is thrown out but they dont feed for long about 5 or ten minuets and they are done. But for that 5 or ten minuets it is a frenzy. On the slope I can feed and have been under the pretext of it's going to get cold and they will slow down and I'll fatten them up for the winter now while they are still feeding heavy and have been feeding them for 30 to 40 minuets. And the feeding activity stays pretty constant and they clean all the feed up. And there is a mix of large and smaller fish with the smaller ones in shallower water.

Last night a cold front with light rain and dizzle came through. When I fed this morning there were lots more fish in the deep water around the brush piles and they were very agressive in their feeding, and almost no fish on the gradual slope. Which is the opposite of what normally happens. I think that might have to do with BG going toward deeper water when the weather is cold or hot.

But I wonder Greg if I am getting close to the point of one mid-day feeding.

Eric I have satellite broadband and my service has been going off and on all day because of the weather so havent had a chance to go to that link. But I have been to the site and pretty much looked at everything that is up. They are redoing the site and somethings are down.

I guess what is confusing to me is this. If I were raising hogs or cattle it would be easy to find a reference chart on what should be fed to certain ages and a range of what growth should be expected. I haven't found anything so simple with fish.

George1- It was days like this morning I really really wish I could afford a couple of feeders.


I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Bill there are a number of studies on artificial feeding of BG.
There are probably 500 times as many on feeding cattle etc. Its all about the economics of cows vs. BG. As a general matter 32% protein is good for BG. Higher % are good for yoy to 1 yr of age. I will find some info to post out of the studies. Keep in mind that supplemental feeding is just that and it is different from feeding for aquaculture operations.
















Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
I don't know if this will work, it sure will be different than haveing creep feeders where cows can't get their heads into the calves feed. But next spring I'm going to try this.

I have built gravel nesting area's. I don't if they will work but I have read several studies that BG will nest in gravel if available before they will sand or softer surfaces. I have about 50 nests prepared. The largest males (the 6"+) CNBG I purchased this fall from Overton's should beat out my stunned bunch, and if there is some big healthy ones in there now the more power to them. The eggs in the gravel should have less of a mortality rate than those laid in sand or clay. I also plan to string electric fence wire on t-posts and rebar to keep heron traffic out. I have read that LMB and CC pose a more limited problem mostly to the nests on the periphery of the nesting areas because of BG males mobbing the intruters. I also read that a certain zooplankton gets about 20% of BG eggs but I can't deal with zooplankton. I have also thought about stinging wire vertically down that is wide enough for BG to get in but might deter larger CC and LMB but I am afraid that that may scare off the BG. Does anyone have ideas or experience with something like that?

Next to the nesting areas in in open water and in water with emergent grasses and other vegetation I plan on building not cages that can be removed but using some kind of netting, webbing, or wire (small chicken wire probably will work but I have seen plastic stuff used on this forum that would work better but haven't been able to locate any on the internet probably because I don't know what it is called) for areas where fry can go. There I plan to feed 50% or better feed for fry (the equivalent of a fish creep feeder with mana sprinkled on top).

Since I have noticed that smaller (1" to 3" or 4" BG will come up close to the bank to feed I'll throw something like Aqua Max 400 to them over two wide feeding areas in the shallows and some quality mid-30 percent lower cost feed to the larger fish that won't come real close to the bank. Naturally some large fish will come in and some small fish will go out, but for the most part I think they will segregate because of water depth and size of the pellets.

Since I expect to hand feed anyway all that won't take up much more time than throwing out just one kind of feed. Hopefully I will be getting more protein bucks to where I will get the most conversion. Also with the fry I will be giving perferred treatment to my most desirable males fry (since there are other places that can be used for nesting and areas of cover for fry that won't be given extra protection or extra protected fry feeding. I am sure some fry from the non-protected nests might get into the protected fry feeders (along with FH's), but it will be I think limited to some extent by BG's being territorial.

I don't expect any of this to be more than just something to up the percentage in the direction I want. But I don't think it will be that time consuming for my situation, won't cost much to set up plus I'll get a bit more bang for my protein dollars and should give a bit of a boost to my more desirable fry. Hopefully with more of them getting to LMB food than other BG food besides moving a little closer year by year by year to a more desirable BG population. In addition I plan on adding a few more CNBG every year.

Am I nuts? I have no experience but from what I have read this might work as I said, not as a perfect way, but as increase my odds a bit every year and hopefully to have a positive cumulative effect over several years.


I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
IIRC you are planning on feed segregation by placement, which I used to an extent this year. I tried to place more GSF in the shallows (for small BG), more Aquamax farther from shore (for LMB/HSB and bigger BG).

Big CNBG may monopolize desirable beds; I wonder if they would still be susceptible to existing lurkers and sneakers. Either way, it would not stop the original population from breeding elsewhere. But it seems like a viable plan to maximize the effectivity of your CNBG, and you plan on continuing to add more CNBG stock, which will keep adding Coppernose genes to the pond.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,541
Likes: 282
Bill we use 2 methods to think about. Feeding behind blocking nets and placing xmas trees around a BG colony . Another method is the use of feeding rings over a snow fence or wire enclosure.
















Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
Thanks Theo and Eric, I value both of your input a lot.

Theo, when you refer to lurkers and sneakers I assume you are referring to cuckolders. Which is itself a recently learned term and behavior to me. Like the zooplankton that is said to get 20% of the eggs I don't know what I can do about them except accept them as something I have no control over. I don't expect this to work as well as if I were breeding them in spawing ponds, just to boost nature a bit in a muti-fish enviroment. Also, although the sneakers might cause some males to cannabilize or abandon their nests I had read that for some reason their fry tends to grow faster and larger. Next spring I probably will have more than enough BG for bass forage. The spring after next might be a different story. So lossing some fry isn't as much of a worry to me as in protecting and giving special feeding to the hopefully more desirable fry that do survive. And in addition each year adding a few more CNBG that are too large for the LMB and CC to munch on.

I don't plan on seeing a noticable effect for few years. Maybe never. But I probably will get some results, more than if I did nothing, how much is the question I was hoping some of you more experienced forum members could say. It makes me feel more confident Theo that you think it has a chance of working over the long-term.

Eric, picture a 260 foot dam with a pond going out something like a triangle but instead of the triangle haveing straight lines, the sides kind of fan out wider than the damn then taper in to about 175 feet wide where the remander of the pond has a 25' island with 20 to 30' channels around it and where the pond ends behind the island with the islands 25' back channel in a straight line to the middle of the dam, except for a 2' to 3' deep 150' by 75' slew that makes a right angle off of a side channel of the island going away from the body of the rest of the pond.

Back to the dam picture the fanned out triangle. I made a brush pile, some of it always submerged, from the dam in pretty much a straight line that is about 150' long to where the fanned out part of the triangle starts to taper in. I would guess where my last log almost gets to shore it ends about 75' from the closest corner of the island. Okay with that shape in mind, itself a something like a elongated half tear drop I sunk one over 30' cedar and a 20' one in middle of that line where the water is 10' to 15' deep at full pool. I had to cut both of them in half to be able to man handle them into water where they would float then I tied cement blocks with wire to them while the blocks were in my john boat and then threw the blocks over the side. Then I sunk large dead hardwoods on top of them working myself into the half tear drop with other brush and logs stopping when I got into from 2' to 5' of water with the area between the brush and the bank relatively level soft to walk on underwater but not where you sink into it sand. There in the middle of the shore side of the tear drop surrounded by brush, actually on all sides, the shore side is living brush in the water at full pool and out of the water now, is where I built the nests. Part of them are terraced and now above water but at full pool will be in about a foot or so of water with some probably at full pool will be in 3 1/2 feet of water. I am pretty sure that is where a lot of BG already nest and will build nests outside(toward the dead brush and open water) the area I put gravel and will wire against herons. They may have sneakers, but they will be good protection against LMB and CC getting into the gravel nests, I hope. On the part of the tear drop opposite the dam in shallow flat bottomed water is where I want to build the fry feeding area. It is also still inside the brush bordered half tear drop.

I have been wondering about the snow fence. I was looking at Breskies (I apologize I know I am spelling his name wrong) and his fry cage. It was really neat. The snow fence looked good but never have seen it here and was wondering where I could get some. I don't know what feeder rings are for sure. But had planned to make it real simple with t-posts and rebar both as posts and to anchor the sides down and build it up above water with wires across the top to keep birds out. If I used posts and rebar I could move or expand it easier than a frame of glued together PVC. Think that would work?

Theo where can I order snow fence? Looks stronger and more durable than nets, and easier to use and won't rust like chicken wire.

Thanks again both of you. Don't be afraid to say what you think.

Last edited by Bill Webb; 10/22/07 09:52 PM.

I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Moderator
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Lunker
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 14,039
Likes: 300
Up here, snow fence is sold at farm supply stores (and maybe feed mills???). Stoney Creek Equipment carries plastic netting material that is perfect for fish cages or exclusion screens, but I suspect it is sufficiently more expensive than snow fence to exclude use for structure purposes.

Here is a picture of my good feed ring, made from discarded 1" black plastic water pipe, a $1 coupling, 2 radiator clamps, and a little electrical tape.



"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
B
Lunker
OP Offline
Lunker
B
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 165
Thanks Theo, for the link and the picture.

I'll see if Tractor Supply can get in snow fence. Unless it has other uses down here it probably won't be stocked since we have very little snow each year if any. I'll also check out the link and get a price.

I also want to find something for a spillway screen.


I wish I had the tenacity of GSF!
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
G
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
G
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,973
Bill,
check surface water temp. The fall is some of the best feeding all year but it is a short window. I would think it a little ealry to switch to one midday feeding. Also my prefernce of bluegil food is 36% protein 1/8 inch pellet. There are several manf. To me the extra $3 vs 32% bigger is worth it. Not sure you get the same return on investment to upgrade to aquamax, although it is great food.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
csteffen, logme13, taz1313, Tim Sanders
Recent Posts
New YP/SMB Pond in MI - Plan
by Angler8689 - 06/13/24 07:07 PM
Does anyone else hand feed bass dead fish?
by catscratch - 06/13/24 06:57 PM
Something is eating mussels
by nvcdl - 06/13/24 06:52 PM
alligator eating my fish food
by Dave Davidson1 - 06/13/24 04:49 PM
Windmill System Suggestions
by FishinRod - 06/13/24 10:47 AM
New Pond Build General Information
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 06:41 PM
System advice
by Bill Cody - 06/12/24 03:04 PM
Green Sunfish to Control Crappie Population?
by ewest - 06/12/24 02:47 PM
Gnat removal
by Bill Cody - 06/12/24 02:42 PM
Building a pond in Georgia
by PondGuppy - 06/12/24 01:40 PM
Trapping the Crays
by FishinRod - 06/12/24 01:25 PM
Shoreline plants now submerged. Will they die?
by jludwig - 06/12/24 12:35 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5