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#97135 09/15/07 12:00 PM
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Need some help identifying these weeds. First time posting pictures, hope it works.
















Thanks
Ron

Last edited by Gates; 09/15/07 04:04 PM.
Gates #97140 09/15/07 01:45 PM
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The plant with the little "spines" projecting off the leaves is called Brittle Naiad.



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Shawn Banks #97142 09/15/07 04:07 PM
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Thanks for the reply Shawn, I have posted better pictures since the originals.

Ron

Gates #97248 09/17/07 04:21 PM
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I can not believe all of you pondmeisters are stumped. My luck, it is probably a, rare, only seen when the correct planets lineup, kind of weed.

Ron

Gates #97250 09/17/07 04:28 PM
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Gates have you looked at the pics on the Aquaplant index ? I bet you can id the plants.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/index/visual_id_submerged_plants.htm

Last edited by ewest; 09/17/07 04:29 PM.















ewest #97257 09/17/07 07:33 PM
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Ewest, yes I have been to all of the weed ID sites and I have my opinion. This post was created from my post in the contolling unwanted weeds section titled Southern Naiad good or bad. I posted the pictures at the request of Bill Cody. It is always good to get another opinion. You just can not beat experience. Once identified I still have to figure out how to deal with it.

Thanks
Ron

Gates #97259 09/17/07 08:29 PM
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Gates #97265 09/17/07 09:07 PM
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Gates,
I did not reply since Shawn gave you a decent answer. You had the ID correct in your other topic for photos 1,2,3,5,7, Egeria densa - giant elodea.
Photos 4&6 show an obvious naiad (Najas) one of the coarser toothed species; there are 5 species of naiad and a couple have have coarsely visible teeth -Najas marina and medium coarse teeth - Najas minor (brittle), N. guadalupensis (southern) and N.gracillima (northern or slender). I will not commit to a species name until I can see the shape of the basal lobes of the leaves and or the seeds which are improtant key features for speciation. From our photos I would not call it southern naiad. Since your leaves recurve with fairly coarse teeth it superficially looks like N.minor brittle naiad like Shawn suggested. Northern and brittle naiad look similar. Sometimes two species of naiad will occur together.


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Bill Cody #97300 09/18/07 07:49 AM
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Thanks for the reply Bill. I appreciate your input. Any suggestions on controlling the weeds, other than chemicals. There seems to be an almost even balance between the two. The two are extremely dense along the edge out to about 6 feet, unless there is a tree. My guess is this is where it does not get any sun due to the depth of the pond or the shade of the tree. This is the first time I have ever had this type of problem, usually it is just a small FA problem that I mechanically remove with no problem. The one big change we have had this year is no rain, under .5" in two months. My concern is, will they progressively over take the pond or stay along the edges. Will they be detrimental to the pond and the fish.I understand some vegetation is necessary, how much is the question. I have seen the pictures of some of the ponds that are completely over run, I do not want that. I have included some pictures of the pond.









Ron

Last edited by Gates; 09/18/07 09:01 AM.
Gates #97322 09/18/07 11:24 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Gates
Any suggestions on controlling the weeds, other than chemicals.


Elodea is the devil's weed. I can tell you first hand DO NOT try to mechanically remove Elodea with pond rakes or "weed cutters." Any little pieces of the stuff that gets away will make the stuff spread like crazy.

I would reconsider chemical treatment. Based upon recommendations that I have received I'm gonna treat my Elodea with Reward. Elodea is VERY fast growing and will grow in deep water. Some of mine is rooted in 10-12 feet of water. It will fill in a pond in short order. Mine has gotten so thick in patches there is no way you can fish in it and can barely kayak across it. I hate the stuff.

Any reason why you don't want to chemically treat it?

Last edited by jeffhasapond; 09/18/07 11:27 AM.

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I just have never been a fan of chemicals. I think they should be the last resort. We grow our own hay for the horses, you would not believe some of the hold times for forage consumption when chemicals are involved. I often wonder, that in a closed system like a pond, where do all of those chemicals utimately end up. It may be nothing to worry about, it is just my opinion. I am glad you mentioned about the mechanical removal. It would figure,that was going to be my approach.

Ron

Gates #97350 09/18/07 04:05 PM
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Reward will break down quickly by absorption onto silt and through photo-degradation. Your livestock can drink the water after only 1 day and you can irrigate your pasture after 3 days. To enhance the application, I recommend adding some Cutrine to the mix. This mix will kill both of your species. Be sure to read the label and follow the directions.

I understand your concerns about using chemicals, but you are not going to be happy down the road when most of the pond is a weed mass.



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Shawn Banks #97354 09/18/07 04:27 PM
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Shawn, I think you misunderstood the point what I was making with regards to chemicals and hay. I do not use the pond at all for the fields or animals. I was trying to say some of the hold times to pasture, on the chemicals that are used in the forage grass for animals are extremely long. I was using that as a comparison, realizing all chemicals are different, to the length of time the chemicals, or their residue, would be around in the pond. This may be the wrong way to look at it, I do not know, that is why I am on this forum. I am trying to make the correct decision, so ultimately I do not have a weed pond.

Thanks
Ron

Gates #97355 09/18/07 04:39 PM
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 Quote:
Be sure to read the label and follow the directions


Good advice Shawn! Always look before you leap.

Here is a link to the MSD sheet on Reward, I think I know why Ron shys away from using chemicals when possible.

http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/aadap/06_Diquat/06_MSDSs/MSDS%2010-969_Diquat.pdf

That said, the recommended mix of Reward and Cutrine plus did an excellent job on our coontail problem this summer. Our pond looks better than it ever has for July and August.



Shorty #97358 09/18/07 07:12 PM
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Ron,

You're obviously willing to put forth a lot of effort as indicated by your willingness to manually remove the weeds. You have learned, though, that the plants have the ability to spread through fragmentation. Another route that can be taken (non-chemical) is to shade-out the plants. You are probably aware of the dyes that are available, but I'm talking about using black plastic sheets to cover the weed beds. I've never done it, but I have seen photos of this method being used with successful results. You have an ideal pond in that it is fairly small and the weeds are mostly restricted to the shoreline areas. Just a thought.



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Shawn Banks #97360 09/18/07 07:28 PM
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Shawn, I appreciate the response. I just want to head the problem off while it is still a relatively small outbreak. I will admit I do not like hearing the term "Devils Weed". It sounds to me like this could get serious rather quickly. I thought that the amount of weed I could remove would far exceed the amount of fragments that were left behind.It sounds to me that some have already tried that with not very pleasant results. But once again, you can not beat experience. Any thoughts on the best time of year to deal with the weeds?

Ron

Last edited by Gates; 09/18/07 07:33 PM.
Gates #97362 09/18/07 07:43 PM
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Gates one more idea is to draw down the pond and remove the plants and remove some of the dirt where the roots are located (using equipment). Then next spring manually remove or treat any small area where the plants try to re-establish. Removal by hand is a real job as plant volume is many times what most people think.
















ewest #97365 09/18/07 07:58 PM
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Ewest, I am steady being convinced that chemicals are in my future. It might be the best way to go due to the fact that the weeds are just beginning the invasion. The area of treatment will be relatively small. The shade idea is interesting. Where the trees shade the pond there is no current growth. I do not know if that would be a long term fix or not. With regards to the draw down. The pond is spring fed and would be very hard to draw down.

Ron

Gates #97385 09/19/07 08:12 AM
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I have been battling Elodea for the 2 years that I've owned my pond. Like you Ron I am very leery of chemical solutions. I don't grow hay or have any animals (other that wild/native animals) so that is a significant difference between our situations. It has been my observation that Elodea (at least in Northern California) tends to die back in the winter time - it doesn't die off it just seems like it's growing cycle seems to slow way down. In the spring and most especially the summer it grows at an incredible rate. It's too bad the stuff doesn't taste like peaches or sweet corn or something - I'd be a zillionaire. Any way as I said I began a systematic approach to mechanically removing Elodea. I even went so far as to build a contraption that I could drag from a vehicle to pull it up. I thought I had a great system with manually raking it out then I used a 25' seine to pull through the water to remove as many fragments as I could. My pond looked fantastic for about 6 months. Winter came the pond got even clearer. I thought that I could whip it (whip it good). But the next spring/summer it was everywhere - it had rooted in places it never was before. I have created a real mess. From my observation, Elodea prefers sunny areas but will tolerate a fair amount of shade. There is one corner of my pond that stays pretty shady - probably only gets about 2 hours of sun a day and the Elodea grows fine there also.

I haven't tried any Aquashade or other similar products. After reading and re-reading threads on those types of treatments I am leary of this treatment also.

I also haven't tried any type of mechanical shade barrier. There is an article in a past Pond Boss about building submerged shade structures. My pond is 3 acres so it would take a heck of a lot of structures to effect any significant change.

I'm no expert, just a Jeff with a pond, but I've been struggling with Elodea for a couple of years now and I can tell you so far without chemicals I'm not winning the war. I too am reluctant to use chemicals but given that Reward breaks down fairly quickly (thanks for that info Shawn) and that it is fairly reasonable price wise that is the route I'm gonna take next year.

You might want to try and experiment with a shade structure as an alternative. Could be an interesting experiment.

The only real solid piece of advice that I can give you is do not try to manually remove it during it's active growth cycle (every season except winter in Northern California). Fragments of the stalks will break off and even if you try to net it you won't get them all and they will cause it to spread.

What I have been advised (Shawn I would welcome any suggestions) is to treat a portion of the pond at a time (so I don't have too much dead vegetation that could cause an oxygen crash) and let it die off for a few weeks then manually remove only the treated area. Continue with that around the pond until I've got it under control and the after that spot treat it where ever it rears it's ugly head. So that's my plan. I'm gonna keep a record with photos of my progress and I'll post it after I'm done but that'll be next year.

Anyway like I said I'm no expert, just your average every day pond monkey.


JHAP
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Jeff,thanks for the response, I feel your pain, or should I say I am trying to keep from having to feel your pain. My hay and animal situation is totally separate from my pond. I was just making a comparison.
I too am just a normal everyday guy with a pond, trying to make the right decisions. I have no where near the pond knowledge that some of the people on this site have, that is exactly why I am here. I am sure these people realise that everyone here is not a pond expert. The trivial and redundant questions to them are often earth shakers to the novice.

My pond is 20 years old and I try not to interfere with it.I do not feed the fish or have aerators. It kind of does its own thing. It is full of fish including,catfish,crapie,BG,Bass,
perch,Koi (size of small submarines), and just about every other pond related animal you can think of, except beavers and musk rats. This may be the wrong approach to ponding but it has worked out so far,or so I believe. I subscribe to the school of,"If it ain't broke don't fix it!". But here in lye's the problem, you first must understand the definition of broke,which in regards to ponds, I am learning is not a clear cut defintion. That was the origination of my post Southern Naiad good or bad? I do not know just how much,or what kind of vegetation is supposed to be present. This makes it extremely difficult to define broke. Iam steady sucking up the info. though to assist in the definition.

Up until now I had the occasional FA outbeak, nothing to get excited about. Wait till it blows into a corner and dip it out. This is the first time this Elodea/Egeria & Naiad has appeared, or appeared in my eyes, it could of been there in very small quantities. After reading on this site and others I think it is something that I need to deal with before it gets out of control. As of now it is just along my edges, about 6' out, and reasonably accessible. Unless I can find some other type of info. to the contrary I guess I will,very reluctantly, use chemicals. Now I just have to figure out what is the ideal time. I would think that mechanically removing it would be a great head start to the fight, but once again that is why I am on this site. You just can not beat the, "been there done that stories". I am a research junky and I will continue on with the research and compile a stratedgy for the weed war. Sounds like the beginning to one of those TV surival shows!!

Thanks
Ron


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