Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose HSB/CNBG/RES only, no LMB ?

I have been reading some of the other posts (which contained links to other previous posts), so now I have some questions. First things first:
Pond -- unstocked 3/4 acre, south of HOU, 12 ft max depth, 7 ft avg depth, clay bottom, gravel spawn areas, hills, rock piles, tree islands already in place, aerated (single 9" diffuser).

Goals -- right now I have two young kids (10/12 yrs) who like to fish, but obviously this pond can not be my main time user for a few more years. Would like to have quality fish that they can catch and release, and bring friends over on weekends for something to do. I would like to have some kind of large (5-6 lbs is fine by me) predator type fish to go after occasionally on a quiet evening (without waiting 2 hrs for strike).

So here is my concern after reading the other posts. I recently posted the question "too many fish to start with??", and got great suggestions on proper ratios/types to stock -- THANKS!! However, in that post it was not mentioned about the potential hook shyness and lack of biting by LMB, plus stunted growth possibilities. I see that some of yall are using HSB as your predator. I grew up chasing LMB around TX, and my pond certainly looks like many of the places I caught them. However, the only places we caught HSB was in 30-40 ft of water chasing shad near the dam (Lake Whitney, Ray Hubbard), so I was not aware that they would make a good fish for 12 ft pond.

Do yall feel that HSB (75 2-3") stocked at the same time as 500 2-3" CNBG, 100 2-3" RES and 10 lbs FHM would make a "fun" pond for a while, or replace the HSB with 50 Norhtern LMB (more active) and 25 F1 LMB (larger size) in summer 2008. I plan to feed with fish farm hi protien food for remainder of this year, then slowly ween onto game fish chow next year.

My other question would be how do you ever convert from HSB to LMB or LMB to HSB after one of them is established, so that the new fish type does not become the prey?

Any thoughts on using golden shiners instead of FHM ?

HSB/CNBG/RES only, no LMB ?

Hi Darryl, since you have posted before in regard to stocking a new pond, I know that you know there is a ton of information in the archives about this subject, but for others following this thread I would like to cite several links :

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id/1#import
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92629#Post92629

Understanding your goals of “wanting to have large (5-6 lbs is fine by me) predator type fish that they can catch and release” in your unstocked ¾ acre pond, I will share my experience and attempt to answer some of your questions.

The first problems I recognize with a remote site location are poachers and “helpful” neighbors that may “help” you stock your pond with unwanted species.

Your concern for the potential hook shyness and lack of biting by LMB, plus stunted growth possibilities is well founded.

Your other concern that HSB “make a good fish for 12 ft pond” is a valid concern, but with aeration and high protein fish food, many of us on the forum have been successful in most cases.

Regarding your first stocking question:
“Do yall feel that HSB (75 2-3") stocked at the same time as 500 2-3" CNBG, 100 2-3" RES and 10 lbs FHM would make a "fun" pond for a while, or replace the HSB with 50 Norhtern LMB (more active) and 25 F1 LMB (larger size) in summer 2008”.

With your goals in mind, if this was my pond, which it isn’t, and costs was not a consideration, this fall I would stock the largest HSB, CNBG and RES that are available.
If cost prohibitive or fish not available, I would stock the same fingerling species the following spring, with added FHM and Tilapia for forage and algae control.

I will let others assess the numbers/acre, but sufficient numbers of large HSB will be necessary to control the BG spawn.
LMB can be added later if desired but remember that once in, constant effort is required to control stunted LMB, which may be difficult to achieve with your goal of 5-6 lb fish.

Your other question about predation:
“how do you ever convert from HSB to LMB or LMB to HSB after one of them is established, so that the new fish type does not become the prey?

Adult stockers will be necessary in the future to avoid predation. 4- 6 inch HSB make expensive fish food...

I will ask others to respond to your question:Any thoughts on using golden shiners instead of FHM ?

Good luck and keep us advised of your pond project.
George Glazener

George the first link works try these for the second.http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...ite_id/1#importhttp://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=2194&Number=23822#Post23822 Edited by ewest (08 September, 2007 09:37) _________________________N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre pondsOriginal george #173 (22 June 2002)

This info may all be in george's missing links; more on that below.

HSB are typically not as effective a predator on BG as LMB are. This is partly due to having smaller mouths, and partly due to natural habits - LMB's choice of ambush predation in & near cover matches well with the BG tendency to hide in & near cover, while HSB's forte is high speed pursuit in open water. This is not to say that either species will not catch BG in the other situation, but each has their strengths and that is where they would do best.

HSB potential to control BG numbers is maximized in ponds completely devoid of structure and vegetation. This situation forces the BG to live in the HSB's world of open water and is where HSB effectiveness most closely approaches that of LMB. Darryl's pond, with "hills, rock piles, tree islands already in place", does not sound like an open water playground for HSB (but rather like a pond thoughtfully and intelligently created for LMB fishing - I've been reading Lusk's Perfect Pond again).

As george mentioned, either species CAN be added to a pond with a climax population of the other predator, through use of advanced size stockers (possibly in conjunction with some growing out in cages or with blocking nets). Darryl could try using only HSB as a predator and, if BG numbers obviously got beyond HSB capacity to control, introduce large LMB stockers to the pond and get it back under control. Additional HSB could be added after that point if large HSB restockers were used.

If this scenario is pursued, I would stack the deck in the HSB's favor as much as possible initially by using low numbers of BG and high numbers of HSB and trying to prevent all weed growth (say, with lots of GC). Bruce or other HSB experienced PMs may have an idea how effective feeding those high numbers of HSB to get them to large size, and then cutting back or eliminating feeding to incentivise them to catch and eat BG might be.

IMHO if managing for either large HSB or large LMB, establishing a large initial forage base with both FHM and GSH is a good idea. Based on my personal experience of stocking these two fish a year ahead of BG and LMB, I feel a large starting population of GSH causes a setback (perhaps of 1 or 2 years) in the emergence of BG as a large proportion of a pond's biomass. This would seem to be desirable in Darryl's contmeplated HSB-only scenario.

george, ewest was probably the first to notice that SOME links made with the old forum software now just send you to the forum home page. That is what happened to me when I clicked on your non-functional links above.

IF you cut-and-pasted those links from a prior thread, I believe that is why they are faulty. IF you newly established them while replying to Darryl, I don't know why they are bad.

Perhaps the ubermods Bruce and Eric (you have no idea of the relief I feel by not being expected to perform services here at their high level of expertise ) can recover your links; the best I can do is try to reestablish them from scratch if you can define what threads they link to. But if you have to do that you could relink them yourself just about as easy. Holler if you want the humble attempted assistance of Theo the untermod.

ubermod? Me?

Uberdork, maybe.

George see above and see if this is the fix.

No easy way to find them yet !!

Only on the first link - not on the following lnks...

Theo is correct in his discussion about structure, which I am sure as taken place on the missing links.

We have no structure in our ¼ acre HSB/CNBG/RES pond.
To date it appears that the HSB are controlling the BG spawn.
1 grass carp and all female tilapia control aquatic vegetation and goats eat the water primrose and shoreline vegetation

The structure in our ~2 acre HSB/LMB/CC/CNBG/RES pond is limited to the shallow upper end of the pond, whereas the deep end is devoid of structure and ideal for HSB.

I don’t believe that structure is as much a problem as aquatic vegetation where BG spawn can survive in endless numbers.

IMO, a “weedless” pond is effective for controlling BG spawn and YOY LMB.
To date we have no apparent “stunted” LMB problem in main pond.

George do you have an appx date on the thread and did you start it?

Eric, I edited my edited post to include your newly supplied links.
Thanks

I assume that Darryl's pond (HOU) is south of Houston TX. I assume from his initial post that addition of the CNBG and RES is for fast catch and release action for kids fishing.?.?.

My thoughts:
1. A number of the CNBG and possibly the RES will have to be harvested to keep the fish community in balance. The number to remove will depend on primarily goals and fish density.

2. It will be MUCH easier to 1st stock HSB and then later if wanted LMB, than the other way around - LMB and then HSB. HSB are less likely to eat smaller LMB, than LMB eating smaller HSB which is a definate problem. Stocking LMB and HSB together is doable but later adding HSB requires that the HSB be larger sized fish as has been mentioned above.

3. Since Darryl lives in TX, no one has explored first stocking threadfin shad, plus maybe FHM or G shiners and HSB plus supplimental feeding high protein food. This should provide lots of HSB to catch and no worry of having to maintain a proper balance or over population possibility of CNBG or RES. If panfish is a goal then BG or RES would need to stocked.

4. If fastest growth and production of really big HSB (5-6 lbs) quickly is not a necessity then just HSB & TFS and NO supplimental feeding would also work. I have no data on how fast HSB habituated to pellet feed will grow in a small pond with just HSB, and TFS &/or minnows as forage items. Note - Currently IMO - All HSB bought from a hatchery are habituated to pellets.

5. Presence of just HSB SHOULD not be a big deterrent to adding more HSB later especially if HSB are fed pellets and/or ample shad or minnows are present. In my experiences, when dealing with predatory fish that are habituated to pellets and are daily eating pellets, forage fish do not make up a big percentage of the pellet eating predator's diet. I am not aware of a big problem with adult HSB preying on smaller HSB. It proably occurs where 18"-24" HSB will eat 3"-4" HSB, but I think the consumption rate would be less compared to adult LMB preying on 4"-7" LMB. Thus it should be relatively successful to restock smaller readily available HSB into this HSB-TFS combination whenever the need arises.

6. If lots of panfishing is not a big or major part of the goal, why not stock only male BG in the HSB-TFS combination? 50-100 only male CNBG added over a 2-4 yr period would provide good occassional catch & release trophy (9"-11") panfishing in a 3/4 ac pond. Biggest problem with this is availability of just male BG. Darryl may have to raise BG in a cage until accurate sexing is possible then stock 15-25 male BG per year until he gets enough (50-200) adult BG. Hatcheries that sell adult BG MIGHT be willing to sell only males if a premium is paid. A hatchery that has adult BG and the personel cannot accurately separate male from female BG, then I question the competency of the hatchery staff. Those fish people then need fish sex ID lessons from Cody, Condello or Baird.

7. Darryl says: "predator type fish to go after occasionally on a quiet evening (without waiting 2 hrs for strike). The major problem with my stocking suggestion is that with 35-50 HSB in a 3/4 ac pond Darryl will not have any quiet evenings on his pond.!

8. I think that if my suggested combination were used there will be no problem converting this HSB-TFS-minnow fishery to one that includes LMB and CNBG/RES. All Darryl has to do is stock the required (LMB,BG,RES) species as fingerlings and enough should survive to eventually (5-10yrs later) the LMB-BG would dominate the fish community in his 3/4 pond based on his description of the current habitat in the pond.

Don't forget the put and take option with HBG and HSB and feeding. That is easy to manage with fast action. TFS are good but sometimes hard to establish in small southern ponds unless fertilized or with a good natural bloom. GShiners are also an option that would reduce any small HBG spawn.