Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations World record bass

Intersted read - Dallas Morning News
by Ray Sasser:

May 19, 2007
Bigger, better bass

Texas Parks and Wildlife fisheries biologists got good news this spring when they sampled small bass at Purtis Creek State Park Lake, Tarrant County's Marine Creek and Pinkston Lake, near Center. Those three small lakes represent half of the waters stocked last fall with fish from TP&W's World Record Bass project.
WRBs are offspring from Budweiser ShareLunkers. By crossing big female bass caught each year with male bass descended from a previous lunker, the state agency is hoping to plant the seeds that grow into a future 20-pounder.
The Texas largemouth bass record has been stuck on 18.18 pounds since 1992. In fact, the biggest fish reported since weighed 16.8 pounds and was caught in 1997. Since the turn of the century, only one top-20 Texas largemouth has been reported.
Biologists are hoping to get the big bass ball – the monster ball – rolling again with the WRB project. Last year, they stocked 25 WRB fish per acre into six small lakes. In addition to Purtis Creek, Marine Creek and Pinkston, the fish were stocked into Lake Raven at Huntsville State Park, Meridian State Park Lake and Mill Creek Lake near Canton.
As you might expect, WRB fish are considerably more valuable than run-of-the mill hatchery-spawned largemouths that are stocked on a routine basis. In an effort to increase survivability of the WRBs, the master race of bigmouths was stocked at six to 12 inches.
Most bass stockings feature fish that are much smaller and many of them wind up as expensive fish food for the existing predator population. When biologists sampled young bass at Pinkston this spring, they found that 8 percent of the 2006 year class were fish from the WRB stocking. The hatchery fish are equipped with wire tags that make them readily identifiable.
"I was very excited about the 8 percent number until we checked Purtis Creek and Marine Creek," said Bill Provine, TP&W's deputy freshwater fisheries director. "At Purtis Creek, the WRB stocking represented 30 percent of the year class. At Marine Creek, we found more WRBs than wild-spawned bass."
Provine was excited to find that just one stocking of potential world beaters could have such a significant impact on an existing fish population. The exploratory stockings are being done in small lakes so their impact can be more easily monitored.
"We have two objectives with the WRB program," Provine said. "One is to create a fish with the potential to reach the maximum size possible. Objective two is to stock fish that can reach trophy size in five years. In the meantime, we may have learned a valuable lesson about how to stock bass in order for them to have the most impact on an existing population."
The whole Florida-strain bass program has been a learning experience. It's been accepted all along that Florida-strain bass have the genetic potential to grow larger than native bass. In the 1980s, Texas biologists concluded that the Florida bass were harder to catch. They came to that conclusion based on carefully recorded fishing success for small bass in small hatchery ponds.
An equal number of 12-inch native bass and 12-inch Florida bass were released in the pond. Biologists cast lures to the fish, noting that the native bass were caught more frequently than Floridas. Ergo Florida bass are harder to catch.
"We didn't pay enough attention to the scope of that study," Provine said. "What we now know is that native bass grow faster than Florida bass during their first two years. Bass that grow faster naturally eat more and are more aggressive feeders. The native bass weren't easier to catch – they were hungrier because of the growth rate."
After two years, the tables turn, and Florida bass grow much faster than native bass. The Florida bass growth spiral continues for years. Adult Florida bass are easier to catch than adult native bass. That's because of growth rates and the necessity to eat. It has nothing to do with native intelligence or reaction to weather changes.
Provine knows adult Floridas are easier to catch because catch rates reported by anglers are highest at lakes such as Falcon, Amistad and Choke Canyon. Bass in those lakes have a very high percentage of Florida genes. The catch rate at Falcon is almost three times higher than the Texas average.
It will be at least four years before biologists know if the WRB project can successfully produce trophy fish in five years. It may be nine years before they know whether big bass can be bred like big deer.
In the meantime, they're learning more about Florida bass in general and bass stocking techniques in particular. Many important scientific discoveries are uncovered by accident.
rsasser@dallasnews.com

What an eye opener if it is correct. Thanks George. I will have to go back to the real controlled studies (also by TPW and others) in the ponds to see how this fits in. Serious questions raised. It is however contrary to reports from anglers , fisheries scientists and hatchery owners who sure did not make up what they were seeing and experiencing in thousands of lakes and ponds across the south. :rolleyes:

More than five years ago, when my son Jeff was building “our” pond, we visited with Bob Waldrop, MS fisheries biologist and owner/operator of Tyler Fish Farms, to get stocking recommendations.

At the time Waldrop was the only source for pure Florida LMB in our area, having personally collected and transported pure Florida LMB and CNBG.

My son was/is a LMB person and I was a HSB fan.
Waldrop cared nothing about HSB and derided the idea somewhat as TP&W, but talked endlessly about LMB.

I recall mentioning over populated/stunted LMB ponds and he discussed the role of harvest and importance of CNBG for forage.

I asked about catchability problems and he strongly denied the existence of this problem.
His comment, as I recall, that the catchability 'myth” was started by competitive fish farms that were reluctant to change old practices, and aware of his threat due to having stocked President Bush's ponds.

This was pre-PB days for me, and when I became active on the forum I brought up the subject.
I was so severely chastised by early forum members for even questioning the difficulty problem of catching pure Florida LMB that I never brought up the subject again.

Maybe Waldrop and TP&W are on to something not previously recognized?

George I don't know. First I have a mix of Flas, northerns, F-1s and all % mixes in our ponds so I don't have a vested interest in the outcome. I further know that Fla males are small (smaller than northern males and rarely get to 20 in.). So half of the Flas do not fit the conclusion/basis for that guy's statement that catchability is based on the need for growth.

I know plenty of Fisheries Scientists from all over the south as well as hatchery owners who are not PB folks. They were using Fla LMB long before TX started. They started getting calls from the pond owners they helped stock Fla LMB over 20 years ago about the catchability problem. This was before hatcheries started development of F-1s. In fact F-1s started about 15 years ago as a response to the problem. That many people did not dream up a problem just so they could restock their lakes. I know of a couple of club lakes run by fisheries scientists who drained the Fla LMB lakes down, sold the Flas, and started over with F-1s and northerns at no small cost to themselves and the club members. Those 8 year old lakes had very big Flas that could not be caught with normal angling methods. They are happy with the results from the change. They were very unhappy with the catch rates of the Flas for 6-8 years and demanded that the hatcheries do something. A least as to this area he is wrong about the fish farms not wanting to change and dreaming up the catchability problem, as they were the ones who started the change due to pond owner demands.

Some of the TPW folks were the earliest writers on the Fla LMB catachability problem so are they now admitting they were wrong or are they wrong this time?

"Provine knows adult Floridas are easier to catch because catch rates reported by anglers are highest at lakes such as Falcon, Amistad and Choke Canyon." Those are not ponds they are huge lakes, and we know ponds are different wrt environment as to predators. How does he know that if the original studies were continued on for more years the results would change as the fish age. In addition they don't know what % of Fla genes those LMB that the anglers caught contained and admit they are %s not pure. A lot of questions here . Keep in mind that TPW has several fortunes invested in Fla LMB stocking programs -- jobs and politics. I say show me the peer reviewed scientific proof one way or the other , not just some anticdotal conclusions from 3 very large lakes (50,000 acres +) and obviously flawed logic. How is that for stirring the pot?

Eric, that's why I posted the DMN aticle....

I do know from personal experience that science and politics does not work well, if at all...

Your well qualified opinion is highly regarded.
I hope that we can get the article distributed and reviewed by some of our independent professinals as well.