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Randy, I'm glad to hear that you're seeing BSF finally. I'm a little surprised it took this long because I saw my first adult of the season in mid April. Beside being a little further north I imagine you might be at a higher elevation than we are which could effect the season. I've had a lot of problems shipping larvae this year. I guess it's because of the heat but I never had one starter kit perish in the previous two years. It might be that the USPS has changed how they handle Priority Mail, but I'm probably going to limit my shipments to overnight. I only mention it in case you decide to ship someone some larvae.

Hi Repter,

I'm glad that you enjoyed the thread, it's been fun for me too. I hope you find wild BSF in N. IL, but you're pretty close to what I currently believe is the borderline of BSF territory. Of course it would be better if you're in hardiness zone 6 instead of 5. I've stopped using table scraps to attract BSF now that I've tried fermented corn. Fermented cabbage works well also and doesn't take as long to prepare. You can find details here: http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2010/04/28/attracting-black-soldier-flies-with-corn/

Anyway, I hope you find some BSF and please let us know if you do.



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Jerry, recently I mentioned that some of the larva are much smaller than normal. Here is an example from what I "harvested" today. Are the little ones BSF??
That's a nickel in the middle.




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Randy, as far as I can tell they all look like BSF to me. I've had mature larvae just as small as those before. I believe that if a larvae can't get enough nutrition to grow large they will mature at whatever size they happen to be. I'm sure that's an oversimplification, but that's how I would frame it.



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Hi guys, GW, RMEDGAR,

It's been awhile, I've noticed that nothing gets done as fast with a 3 yo in the house :-) GW, I saw that you didnt like metal in the bins, you may want to consider the coated 1/2" hardware cloth or the plastic chicken wire. Maybe use a layer or three of fiberglass window screen as a filter on top of that

Just a thought.

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bobdog, sounds like a good idea. Do you think that all of the "waste" might clog up the screen?


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Hey Randy, I almost finished typing my response when I saw yours come through. I had the same thoughts about the window screen.

Hey bobdog,

I think the coated cloth and the chicken wire are good solutions, but I'm not as sure about the window screen. Whatever you use I think it should allow as much direct contact with the filter material as possible.

I have a theory that successful drainage in a BSF unit is achieved through a material that wicks liquids as opposed to the liquid flowing through holes. The BSF residue seems to clog any size or number of holes. But, when the residue directly contacts something like coconut fiber or synthetic air conditioner filter the liquid wicks along the individual fibers.

Window screen might work by also wicking the liquid, but there is another potential problem with it; it could trap larvae beneath it. The larvae will always work their way into the filter material, and they grow so quickly they could possibly get too big to pass back through. To eliminate that possibility you need to use a mesh that will allow a fully grown larvae to pass through.

Anyway, thanks for the input, sooner or later I'll try using one of these materials to sandwich the filter medium.



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GW

You're right about the larvae getting through, not such a big deal for my system as they will be regularly drained/rinsed into the compost heap and it's fine with me if they develop there. (fyi everyone else, I use my colony as a rapid food waste reducer then add the resulting bug manure to the compost heap later, larvae as bird food are a positive incidental byproduct as my bluebird houses still aren't up yet)

I like the filter idea, I'll get some next trip to the HW store to try. I take it that the filter isnt clogging?

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bobdog,

So far the material I'm using for the current composter version 2.1 is working very well. The previous version used a natural hog hair A/C filter which also worked fine until the larvae expanded/shredded it.

There are endless variations possible with BSF set ups and in the end if it works for you it's all good.



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Hello All,

I'm new here and am in the process of building a make-shift BSF reactor. There are some nagging questions though...

For drainage, does the screen or mat or whatever need to have small enough opening to prevent the little maggots from escaping out the bottom ?? Or, will their normal behavior keep them in the upper layers ?? When there is a mass exodus they all try to go out the top; right ??

In case anyone is interested, you can get plastic matting which is very firm and will not collapse under the weight of the stuff above it. It also comes with various size openings. Google "matala and fish". The mat is used a lot in ornamental pond filters.

I was planning to put a lip at the top of the container to keep the buggers from crawling out until seeing the Velcro thing. Can they crawl upside-down on a horizontal surface (the overhanging lip) if it has condensation on it ?? Also, if the purpose of the Velcro is to break the surface tension, would a strip of 1/8-inch plastic mesh have the same effect ??

You guys say that the media/scraps/compost turns into wet goop and it's a problem when it gets too wet. But, if you could keep the media/scraps/compost friabe by adding enough wood shaving or something, would it then be too dry ?? Does that stuff need to be a mass of goop for the system to work ??

Thanks in advance for any help you might provide.

-steve

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Originally Posted By: -steve
Hello All,

I'm new here and am in the process of building a make-shift BSF reactor. There are some nagging questions though...

For drainage, does the screen or mat or whatever need to have small enough opening to prevent the little maggots from escaping out the bottom ?? Or, will their normal behavior keep them in the upper layers ?? When there is a mass exodus they all try to go out the top; right ??

In case anyone is interested, you can get plastic matting which is very firm and will not collapse under the weight of the stuff above it. It also comes with various size openings. Google "matala and fish". The mat is used a lot in ornamental pond filters.

Thanks in advance for any help you might provide.

-steve

Hi -steve,

I don't think there is a material that would allow liquids to pass through and also block BSF larvae without quickly clogging. The smallest larvae are as thin as a thread and even the larger larvae are able to squeeze through small openings. It may be possible to keep them primarily in the upper layers by creating a (deep) lower layer without food, but I think it would become unnecessarily complex due to the powerful mixing action of the BSF. I say that because it's not a big issue if a few larvae escape through the bottom. I think that for most part the larvae move into and below the filter temporarily and that they eventually migrate back to the upper layer. It's difficult to contain BSF larvae so I think it's best to allow them to move freely when possible.

Most BSF systems I've tried don't have a drain outlet that is always open. They've either been capped or drained directly into the ground (which stops juvenile larvae). In these cases any larvae that venture down the drain pipe would simply return the way that they came. I have also operated systems where the drain pipe terminated above ground and would allow larvae to escape. I didn't notice larvae escaping in those systems but it's possible. Even if some larvae did exit via the drain pipe it would not have been a large percentage.

I looked at the matala filter material and I think it's ideal for a BSF unit except for the cost.

Originally Posted By: -steve
I was planning to put a lip at the top of the container to keep the buggers from crawling out until seeing the Velcro thing. Can they crawl upside-down on a horizontal surface (the overhanging lip) if it has condensation on it ??

Yes, the larvae can crawl upside-down given enough moisture and a smooth surface, however, a lip can still be an effective barrier. The original BioPod (as opposed to the BioPod Plus) did an excellent job of containing BSF larvae because of the lip at the top of the main compartment. The larvae are able to crawl on the underside of the lip, but they can't easily make the 360º turn required to continue once they reach the end. The lip molded into the original BioPod was an upside-down "U" shape but a horizontal lip would probably work well also. The main problem is in building such a lip without the benefit of rotomolding which is how the BioPod is made.

Originally Posted By: -steve
Also, if the purpose of the Velcro is to break the surface tension, would a strip of 1/8-inch plastic mesh have the same effect ??

Maybe. 1/8 inch might be too long and at the least I suspect it would allow medium sized larvae to pass. One important consideration with this and anything else you build for a BSF unit is the fact that BSF larvae will defeat many types of adhesives over time. Velcro has fairly aggressive adhesive and I've seen it fail several times due to BSF. Part of the problem is that many adhesives are weakened by moisture which is normally present in a BSF unit. The main issue is that the larvae will continually dig into any tiny gap. The most common failure I've had with Velcro is in the corners of units made from rectangular storage containers. The larvae congregate in the corners and when large numbers of them crawl up the sides most of them will concentrate at the Velcro in the upper corners. With a column of larvae beneath them, the higher larvae have something to brace against and they often loosen the Velcro. (This isn't strategy on their part, just programming to migrate and to dig into crevices.) The round shape of a bucket avoids this problem because there isn't a concentration at any one spot. A single larvae will still try to dig beneath the Velcro, but with nothing below it to brace against it just slides backwards without success.

Note that some types of Velcro are advertised to be moisture resistant and those are the types to use. I'm very careful when installing Velcro to clean the surface with alcohol and not to touch the sticky part of the Velcro with my fingers. I also work out every air pocket under the the Velcro and rub it firmly with the back of a spoon. Lately I heat the Velcro with a hair dryer after it's installed and before I rub it with the spoon. I don't use the "loop" side because larvae get tangled in it and will usually get stuck and die.

Originally Posted By: -steve
You guys say that the media/scraps/compost turns into wet goop and it's a problem when it gets too wet. But, if you could keep the media/scraps/compost friabe by adding enough wood shaving or something, would it then be too dry ?? Does that stuff need to be a mass of goop for the system to work ??

The "compost", for lack of a better term, should not be wet and pasty. "Too dry" for BSF larvae is below 70% humidity, and if you're processing household food scraps this won't be an issue. The problem with a pasty consistency is that it becomes oxygen starved therefore promoting the growth of anaerobic bacteria. If your compost smells like a sewer this is probably the cause.

I've been using sawdust, and more recently wood shavings in my units with good results. As opposed to making the compost too dry I believe the wood shavings work as moisture buffers; they absorb excess liquids and then retain them to help stabilize the moisture content. I theorize that the shape of the wood shavings help trap air in the compost, helping to limit the growth of anaerobic bacteria and also aiding the flow of liquids though it. I thought wood shavings were the best thing you could add to a BSF unit, but I think there might be something even better.

Yesterday it occurred to me that ground corn cob would work even better. It has a sponge-like structure that may hold oxygen and drain better than wood shavings. In addition I think it may be a great substrate for aerobic bacteria (good kind) which the BSF larvae feed on. I've added fresh corn cobs to my BSF units before and I've noticed that the larvae are attracted to it for several weeks, long after any obvious corn remains. Usually it's the smallest larvae that are attracted to the cobs. If this same behavior happened with commercially available ground corn cob then the larvae would carry oxygen with them as they work on the cob, and this would keep the pieces from becoming anaerobic. Ground cob is sold in pet stores as animal bedding and it's not too expensive.

-steve, thanks for the great questions. I hope to hear more from you as you experiment with BSF.



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I really appreciate the help GW. I'm toying with the idea of forced air ventilation up through the compost - if it could be maintained in a friable condition. I was going to put pearlite in the bottom of the bin but I like the corn cob idea too. The ventilation would drive off a lot of moisture, but our RH is almost always above 70% and it rains a little almost every day here.

Still thinking about the Velcro thing and a lip on the bin.

I may do without the foreced-air ventilation until another issue can be resolved. We have a small fish farm (ornamentals) which generates a lot of culls. We want to incorporate the culls into the BSF feed and then use the prepupae to condition broodstock for spawning. We have a very thight biosecurity program and I understand your concerns about using animal product in the bin and then feeding the prepupae back to the same species. In normal vermiculture composting this would be a definite no-no. You may be able to get away with it using BSF though because they cast off the gut lining in the last molt and it is unlikely that fish viruses are incorporated into insect tissue. So, you would only have to worry about contamination on the outside of the prepupa and there are various way to disinfect them externally. It's going to require an expensive lab test to confirm it, but I'm pretty sure it will turn out OK.

-steve

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-steve,

I think Hawaii must be an ideal environment for culturing BSF. Humidity is high which supports a healthy wild population, and more importantly your high temps are relatively mild. Right now many parts of the continental US are dealing with highs over 100ºF which doesn't leave much of a margin for keeping BSF in the safe range. I don't think you need to worry about any type of complex ventilation system although I'm interested if you do figure something out. I did eye a solar ventilation system sold for autos the other day, but the goal is really to have a totally passive system that functions.

I haven't written about it much, but I think fish might represent an exception to the rule about not feeding larvae raised on one type of animal to the same type of animal. In fact I did just that for several months last year. I have a recreational pond and I operated an original BioPod through the summer and about 25% of the waste I added were fish culled from it. I recorded how much and what type of waste, and also the quantity of BSF that I removed. You can find (most) of that data here: Waste in/Grubs out. I say "most" because I never finished posting the data, but you can still see a few months worth of results. This doesn't prove that a closed loop is safe with fish, but I think it shows that it works well in terms of the BSF unit.

This quote is from last year in this same thread:

Originally Posted By: GW
Randy, I've done some thinking about the closed loop represented by grubs eating fish/fish eating the grubs, and my guess is that it's not a problem. I think that because of the dynamic you find in the pond in first place where every species is feeding on every other species including their own kind. In other words I'm picturing the pond as a closed loop itself, or at least somewhat closed if that makes sense.

For example; BSF grubs eat a small fish from my pond and then other fish eat those grubs. The fish that eat the grubs could have just as easily eaten the fish that were fed to the grubs, depending on their size. Parasites or pathogens would be passed from fish to fish as they eat each other, and inserting the BSF into the chain doesn't seem like it would change much IMO.

Having said that, injecting BSF into the equation might actually lessen the survival of pathogens/parasites. Tests indicate that BSF reduce e. coli and salmonella in food waste. The digestive system of BSF grubs is extremely powerful, lowering the survival rate of pathogens.

There are also studies that indicate that the mature BSF grubs secrete an anti-biotic. I'm not completely sure about the accuracy of those studies, but I'll look into them again and report back.

I do have some first hand evidence that the BSF might reduce some parasites in the food chain. I first mentioned this almost 2 years ago in this same thread: http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=87545#Post87545

It seems that the fish I fed to the colony at that time had a living parasitic worm in it. I think the BSF grubs ate the fish but avoided the worm. If that parasite came from the fish then it does represent removal from the pond. I assume it did come from the fish because that was the only animal I had fed to the colony. Here's the photo showing the parasite which is near the anal fin:

(click to enlarge)


Even though the BSF didn't necessarily kill the parasite it's not likely it would survive in the colony or that it would make it back to the pond. I suppose it's possible that the worm could get into a grub, but I have strong doubts about it.

I'm aware of concerns about these types of loops with regards to fowl and mammals, but my guess is that fish are different. I think it might have something to do with the fact that fish are basically cannibalistic. I'm interested what you all think about this.


I've also had thoughts about sanitizing larvae, but for the exotic pet crowd. I've learned that many people with expensive reptiles and amphibians are extremely cautious about introducing pathogens into their pet's environment. To address those fears I've thought about removing larvae from a general purpose BSF unit and soaking them in a sanitizing solution made with a low concentration of bleach, similar to the ratio used to sanitize water for human consumption. You could probably use an even higher concentration because BSF larvae are very resistant to chemicals.

If you're interested Robert Olivier who co-invented the BioPod with his father is giving a few workshops on the Big Island. Here's the info:

U of Hawaii workshop

Workshop 2



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Thanks again GW.

My issue with feeding fish to fish is that I have forty to fifty different stocks which are never intermingled. None ever come in contact with another stock or the water from another stock. If a new pathogen should appear, it would be confined to one group which could then be treated or destroyed without jeopardizing the others. If BSF can be shown to not be a vactor for bacteria or virus of concern, then I'm comfortable with it. I have a small challenge experiment in mind.

I decided to use a very modest ventilation system which runs off an existing air blower used to aerate fish ponds. Basically just a few airline tubes under a false bottom in the bin. The air should turn over in the bin about every fifteen minutes.

So far, all the materials have come off a pile of scraps from other projects. My wife's been hinting that I should haul all that stuff to the dump so it's time again to make something useful from it and buy the pile of junk another six months.

-steve

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Aloha Steve, just curious... Anybody raising tilapia there???

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Yeah, there are some old established tilapia growers which produce for the local market. Now that backyard aquaponics is in vogue it seems like everyone has a few tilapia. There are also wild (introduced) tilapia in every ditch and the lower reaches of most of the streams.

-steve

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GW, I have started reading this b;og from the begining and find it very interesting, any chance you could repost or send me a PM on where to purchase one of the systems? I have read five pages of the blog and sent one Email that I think is to the wrong location but I think it is wrong, just trying to save myself some time but I will read all the pages as time allows.


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Hey there leupy,

The only commercially produced BSF unit available in the US now is the BioPod Plus. I stopped selling the original BioPod last year and I haven't gotten back into it since the new unit came out. I haven't tested the BioPod Plus so I can't recommend it at this time. I hope to test one soon and if the results are positive I'll begin promoting them.

You can buy the BioPod Plus from several dealers including the manufacturer ProtaCulture. Simply do a search for "biopod plus" and you should see the dealers in the results.



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Hi GW,
I am new to the blog however I have read the 28 odd pages of the blog and was very impressed with everyone's input and collaboration. You have done a great job. I have been playing with small BSF cultures for the last two months however I have run into some problems. I have had several cultures that were going very well that crashed within 24 hours. I lost 50-60% of all the larvae, most up them large. They ones remaining are very lethargic and don;t eat well at all. I have been feeding all vegetative waste (culls) that I get from a local farmer here in FL. Have you ever experienced this before?? I am leaning toward a possible pesticide contamination on the vegetables. What are your thoughts?

I also need to replace my grubs as I need feed for my lizards. Would you or anyone out there be interested in selling some larvae ??? I tried getting some from Phoenix worms but they are all out.

Keep up the great work
TonyC

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Hi TonyC,

The only significant die-offs I've seen are from overheating. I'm sure there are several things that could have caused the problem but your theory seems like a good starting point. I assume that vegetables are washed during processing, before they get to the stores, and if you're getting them directly from the farmer they might have enough pesticides on them to be toxic to the larvae. I wish I could be more help, but truthfully, your guess is as good as mine in this case.

I normally sell BSF starter kits, but I shut down that operation a few weeks ago due to several family issues I'm dealing with. I'm traveling so much that I can't maintain a large number of larvae.

A starter kit isn't necessary in most states and in Florida you should be able to attract wild BSF easily. Fermented corn has been working great for me and I've also had good results with rotten cabbage. I'm hesitant to talk about creating sour smells to attract BSF because people usually assume a BSF unit needs to be stinky. The smell of fermenting/rotting grains and vegetables is great for attracting BSF but strong smells are not a necessary part of operating a BSF unit. Once the colony is established the subtle scent of the larvae is the best attractant. Any strong smells after that point should be a warning sign that the colony is out of balance. Did you read my post about using corn? - http://blacksoldierflyblog.com/2010/04/28/attracting-black-soldier-flies-with-corn/ If I were you I would first get a few cabbages, seal them in plastic bags and leave them in the heat until they start to rot. Open it once it gets smelly and it won't be long before the female BSF find it.

Good luck, and please keep us posted.



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Thanks GW I appreciate your reply.

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Does anyone else have any ideas on the die-off I am experiencing ?? Seems the larvae do fine until just before they are ready to pupate. Very frustrating

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Tony,

The most common cause of BSF larvae dying is overheating and the common wisdom is that 113ºF causes instant death. A recent study by Dr. Tomberlin indicates that high temps during the early stages can effect development and also the survival rate significantly. I haven't had the time to thoughtfully read the study but the link is below. When I skimmed the article I noticed something unexpected; the temps are much lower than what I normally think about harming BSF. I believe a controlled temperature of 97ºF caused almost all of the larvae in that group to die early. Obviously BSF are surviving in climates that get hotter than that. I assume the temperatures in the study were constant and my current theory is that an average temperature of 97º is harmful, but that BSF can manage higher daytime temps when the nighttime temps lower the average.

The study also seems to give some evidence about why some larvae and adults are much smaller than others.

http://forensicentomology.tamu.edu/pdf/Tomberlin%20et%20al%20temperature%202009.pdf



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Hi all,

With the help of a friend who goes by the online name BorealWormer I've launched a BSF locator map. I'm accepting submissions from people around the world who have convincing evidence of BSF in their area. Photos and research papers are the best form of confirmation. There aren't many submissions yet, but I'm sure it will fill up in time.

You can zoom in and out of the map and clicking an icon will open a window with a photo and brief description of the sighting.

BSF Locator Map



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That is pretty neat GW. Looks like it has success written all over it.

Some day I hope to try a BSF project, if possible.

Did you try the blank out? It should work pretty good.

Sometimes in softer, thin plastic. I use a smaller drill as the pilot and push the solid pilot thru, then go low speed. Results in nice round holes with pretty accurate sizing.

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Hey Jerry, are you the "spotter' of BSF in GA? I haven't seen any yet, but am going
to put out some corn (as you have suggested in the past) so I hope to see them soon.


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