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#86986 05/04/07 10:36 AM
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I'm in the process of getting a new pond permitted. The DEP in concerned that the warm water overflow will adversely effect the temperature of the receiving stream which is designated as a "High Quality; Cold Water Fishery". As a mitigation measure I will propose a bottom discharge standpipe.

Does anyone have info on the summertime temp differential from top to bottom? The pond will be about 14' deep and approx. 1 acre in area. Location is south western PA.

I have a call in to the Conservation Service but no reply so far.



#86987 05/04/07 10:52 AM
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As a real WAG, based on my data and some other temp profiles posted here, I'd guess 10 degrees difference with aeration turning things over. Perhaps 15 degrees if you didn't aerate all the way to the bottom.


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#86988 05/04/07 12:04 PM
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There is info in the links below. You may have to be prepared to reply to there response that the bottom water is low in DO. If so you can answer by providing the you will have rocks for it to run over to add O2 and that the distance it runs will also up the O2.

Not in your area but some year round info.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000064

Winter DO and temps up north

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000096

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000010#000000

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001610
















#86989 05/04/07 09:46 PM
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I am is southwest Indiana. I have 6 pumps and 8 diffusers going in a 25.4 acre lake. On 8-13-06 temperature was 85 top 5Ft. 85, 10 FT. 85, 15 FT. 85 Oxygen was top 4.5, 5Ft. 4, 10 Ft. 3 and 15 Ft. was 2.5 Ph was 8.2 Hope this helps

#86990 05/04/07 10:48 PM
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jsec,
Isn't this a great forum! Wish I had known about it before starting therapy. After reading your post thought I could share with you how my dam works and how it might work for you.

Background: Spring fed, NO runoff water to the pond. 1.25 acre.
I have about 94" of depth over the ditch that carries my overflow. I built a stand tube (10" pvc) in the pond about 30' from shore. I have a bedrock bottom, so it is supported by a steel tripod up to about 68". At the bottom, a tee into 8" pvc that runs back through the dam (and four seep collars). The top of the standpipe is 4" below my designed pool height. In the dam, I have another tee and 10" standpipe that is set to my designed pool height with a T at the top. The top Tee is set so it is open to the top, and a side port for discharge. This overflow goes through about a 3' piece of 10" and a 45 into a 12" plastic culvert buried down the backside of my dam.

Anyway, now for the good part . I built a stainless steel flap valve to close off the end of the tee in the bottom of the pond via pulleys on the tripod and a rope to shore. I also have a 10" flange plate cover with a 2" port, and long bolts in the ditch (after buying all that pvc, I was too cheap to buy a 10" gate valve, and regretting it).

Normal (summer) operation: Flange plate in ditch tight, 2" outlet capped. Flapper valve in bottom of pond open, bottom water flows up the standpipe in the dam, and down the culvert to the ditch (with a very pleasing sound and oxygen added).

Fall/winter operation: Close Flapper valve via rope. Loosen flange plate bolts (I should be simply opening a valve \:\( ). The water pressure seals the flapper valve shut as soon as the water level in the dam standpipe drops. Level drops 4" for winter (nice skimming action). Overflow pretty much keeps the pipe from freezing in, I also have a homemade bubble tube around the standpipe back to the aerator if I need to unfreeze it.

There you have it, custom from the word go, but I like it. No ugly standpipe visible during the summer; bottom draw (although at 7' the value in that is debatable). Oxygenated overflow that may be a boost in your situation. No losses of minnows or other top dwellers (cage around the bottom to keep the fish in). I had to submit drawings and all my civil calculations to get a small dam permit from the Wisconsin DNR. The 10"/8" combination is to meet my area's 100yr max rainfall/hr with a 60% safety margin. Hopefully my auxiliary overflow will only get wet via rain.

HUGE WARNING! One potentially devastating problem that dawned on me while my pond was filling, and caused me to face my first drawdown (2'). Imagine if you will, your first winter, you close the flapper, and the water drains to the stand pipe height in the pond. Life is good until you realize that the 30' of 8" pvc at the bottom of your pond and your 10" standpipe are now filled with air and are trying to rip your standpipe out of it's moorings!!!
My solution was to draw down, lay heavy monofilement fabric over the pipe, and then hand stack about three tons of rocks on the fabric and pipe, and then coat the whole thing in cement.

If you want more than a mental picture, let me know, I can draw something up to post. I've got lots of pictures too, but they are 35mm.


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#86991 05/05/07 07:44 AM
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It is always good to have the option of removing bottom water (no matter its depth) and replacing it with new water as the rains start.

We have systems that release water at depth first. Sure helps water quality and it is much colder in summer and warmer in winter.
















#86992 05/05/07 11:27 AM
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ewest

Please explain this thing called "rain"?

LOL I am 10+ inches below norms and now 20 days without a drop.

Frank


Book Owner and Magazine Subscriber 3 acre pond central GA
#86993 05/05/07 04:43 PM
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We are about that much below also Frank. The ponds are full . Had some rain yesterday and one pond is losing water through the overflow pipe. Rain - I think that is what's coming next week. Looks like Bruce and Dave W. should be getting bad weather now.
















#86994 05/07/07 06:55 AM
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Theo - 10-15 degrees would be significant. I'll have to research it and try to find some hard data before I reply to DEP.

Jeff - I would be interested in seeing a sketch or drawing of your system. I've been debating whether to use a standpipe or siphon. Your solution may be a third option.

Ideally the pond overflow temperature would be the same as the temperature of normal watershed runoff.

Thanks to all.



#86995 05/08/07 07:18 AM
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My 2 acre pond averages 18' deep when full. I aerate with a surplus Gast rotary-vane pump, back-fed into a 75' soaker hose wrapped around a 5 gallon bucket (duct taped in place) with a rock to weight it all down. Very basic, but very efficient, and about $150 to build. After 30 days of 24/7 aeration, the entire pond is wihin 1* degree temp, top water to bottom, and stays that way Spring through Fall. Hope that helps.

#86996 05/08/07 06:30 PM
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Have you thought about a siphon?


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!
#86997 05/08/07 11:03 PM
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jsec,
Sorry it's taking me so long to get you the sketch. I am on the road, long hrs, not much time to enjoy pond stuff. I will get it posted, keep checking.
Jeff


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Now I know I am not alone!
#86998 05/09/07 10:10 AM
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Jersey,

I am also considering the siphon. But since the frost depth here is 36" it seems to me I would have to bury the upper horizontal run of the siphon at least that deep or risk ice plugging. Still might be an option.

I'd like to find someone up north who has one installed.

Regarding the aerated pond temps: My understanding is that the DEP would prefer for the pond to stratify so colder bottom water could be discharged. Is it possible to aerate the upper two thirds of a pond while leaving the colder lower layer undisturbed? Maybe I should start a new thread in "Should I Aerate?"



#86999 05/09/07 10:38 AM
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Just placing the diffuser shallower, not all the way to the bottom, should result in leaving the coldest bottom water (Summertime) alone.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]
#87000 05/10/07 12:07 AM
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jsec,
Sorry it took so long; perfectionism is such a heavy burden (just ask my wife). I posted a sketch on the
Pond Construction/Building a Dam forum so that others might see it too and comment or get ideas.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000190

Let me know if you have any questions.
Jeff


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Now I know I am not alone!
#87001 05/10/07 07:48 AM
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If your pond is spring or creek fed, there will always be warmer water from the bottom flowing through the siphon and it shouldn't freeze.


Hey Moe, I'm trying to think but nuthin's happening!

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