Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Tilapia Effectiveness...ramblings from a lost mind

In the category of "Observations"....it is interesting how the discussions on Tilapia have changed from 4 to 5 years ago.

The discussions now seem to be more "why haven't they worked faster for me?" and discussions about whether the forage production by Tilapia is awesome or just regular outstanding.

When I first tried to discuss Tilapia on this Forum, it was often met with disdain, doubt, and downright disgust. The die-off was presented as a main reason for not stocking them...huge fish kills and then you have to restock each year. In fact, the die-off has turned out to be a great thing, I believe, in a pond that has predators. It accomplishes two things (at least) : one it provides tremendous forage to predator fish just before winter when they need it most. Second, it provides the very best method of controlling the population of these prolific fish. Without a die-off, I doubt I would stock Tilapia, certainly not without more data.

The other major reason for not stocking them that was commonly offered back then was that they will make your LMB too fat and if you don't continue to stock Tilapia, the LMB will then starve. At least, that is the way I understood the reasoning. That reasoning is what convinced me to stock Tilapia....seeking "too fat LMB".

Algae control was only a collateral benefit back then...now it seems to have become a central issue/concern. Often, now, some say that because the Tilapia didn't accomplish algae control fast enough or completely enough for them, they have been mislead by those who believe in this fish.

Lest anyone misunderstand my motives, I'm not claiming to be the first to use Tilapia successfully. Far from it. Many folks had them and had success with them long before I ever tried them (and I'm thankful one in particular was kind enough to tell me about his success).

My motive is simple...they were so successful for me, that I wanted everyone else to know about it and have the opportunity for similar success. If that means that those who don't find perfection with Tilapia and want to blame me for that, then have at it. I still believe in Tilapia regardless.

As the future unfolds, we may discover some very bad things(currently unknown) about Tilapia that may reverse our thinking entirely....or maybe someone will discover additional attributes that change our thinking toward the positive even more.

The point of all this hot Saturday morning rambling is that change is going to happen...in life and in ponds. Some change may be bad, some good.

In the pond context, part of the journey is to embrace the good change, seek additional knowledge to enable more good change, and understand the bad change...regardless, change is going to happen whether it is embraced or scorned.

Meadowlark,

I would say if they are half as good for most as they are for you, they sure beat nuking your pond with repeated applications of copper products that build up in your sediments, and end up marching up the food chain. If that means you end up with copper in your system because you eat the fish in your pond I'll take a biological solution any day!

OK, now the subject broadens to “biological weed control”, rather than simply tilapia and/or grass carp and goats.

Yes goats…!
I asked my DIL this week who had mowed and weed eaten the ¼ acre pond on the back 40? No weeds – no willows – no cattails

She said the Boer goats keep it clean.
Since “our” ponds belong to my son, and I am the lowly sharecropper, they allow NO chemicals in the ponds.

So, the next step is to fence off the house and turn the main pond into another goat pasture. The goats don’t like the water so no problem as with cattle.

I am in agreement with Cecil as to biological weed control.

Meadowlark,

I have my dozer up and running againg and will be working on finishing my 5 acre lake. When it's done it will have bass in it with the goal of being able to fish it.

I'll get my fish from Tyler Fish Farms and will buy fathead minnows from them as well.

Will the Tilapia compliment the fatheads?? Do they work together to provide forage for the bass?

When the Tilapia die off, what happens???

I'm imagining all these dead fish floating on top of the water and smelling real bad.

Thanks,
Eddie

The quest for knowledge is unending and its volume is increasing exponentially with or without our individual participation. When you stop learning and quit trying to improve you might as well be headed to the grave. Off the soap box for now.

Eddie,

Yes the Tilapia compliment the fatheads and even more so the BG. The fatheads give your LMB a good start, but they will soon disappear, in all probability.

The Tilapia provide tremendous LMB forage during the growing season and right before the crucial winter months provide protein in the die-off cycle.

If you have LMB in the ponds before you stock Tilapia, then during the die-off the LMB will consume most of the Tilapia. What isn't consumed is hardly noticable. Now, however, if you do not have LMB or other adequate predation, expect a large fish kill when water temps hit 55 degrees. In my experience the fish kill isn't that big of a deal because nature's clean-up crew(birds, coons, etc.etc) will take care of the problem. In one pond I've stocked Tilapia without predators, the clean-up was accomplished within a week and no smell or otherwise offensive stuff resulted...but we have a very hearty clean-up crew. ...and I should add it was a small pond

Relative to stocking timetable, wait to stock Tilapia until your LMB are capable of controlling the Tilapia offspring. That's somewhere around 6 inches in size for the LMB. Don't forget about the BG. They provide the year around forage foundation for your LMB...plus provide some great fly rod fishing. Bob's(Tyler Fish Farm) CNBG genetics may be the best you can find anywhere.

Tyler Fish Farms is an excellent choice for your fish. I'm not sure if Bob handles Tilapia but Ken Hale down in Henderson, which is just down the road from you does sell them. Ken is the Texas pioneer on Tilapia. To my knowledge, he was the first to commercially market them in Texas to pond owners and the first to develop overwintering techniques. He deserves all the credit for those accomplishments.

I continue to admire your persistance on your lake project and the bull dozer...I'm inside today only because my dozer is down for repairs on a couple of hydralic cylinders. Let's hope you get some rain to fill up that 5 acre lake real soon!

Well stated, EWEST. Very well stated indeed. That's a soap box worth staying on!

I can only say that what ML has said has worked exactly like that for me. And I never saw one dead Tilapia in three tanks (ponds ) that I put them in. Bass and varmints cleaned them up I guess. Of course I am fifty miles away so was not there every day.

Casca,

Thank you for those comments. So, your Tilapia did not survive the winter. I wasn't sure and recall there was a possibility they might survive for you. I really believe it is a blessing that they do not survive....but Texas715 has year around Tilapia and he makes it just fine.

Got a couple ?'s All the talk is Lmb and Talapia, are SMB and HSB capable of benefiting from Talapia? It just seems ta me that Talapia are good eatin, so when water temps hit around 58, why not break out the spears, invite some buds over, and have a head spearin contest? DMD and Jack ta the most fish not speared in the body

I'll drink to that, Bob-O. Not the DMD though; that stuff's nasty. It seems that ML tried a large tilapia from his pond and it didnt taste good. Maybe so much foraging on the algae causes it. Has anyone else eaten TP from their pond?

When I fed the tilapia daily I had a poacher on a regular basis, he sold them to seafood places that dot my neighborhood. Now I feed every other day and the tilapia get very little of the food so their diet is mostly algae as is their body odor and taste. The poacher has stopped or almost anyway. I don't see any difference in fish size with the lack of feeding. I have pacu which are eager eaters, especially when only fed every other day. They keep the tilapia from the food.
George, I would love to try goats but I am afraid of the area dogs, all of which run loose.

Rad, dogs running loose are prevalent in our area, but the increasing goat raisers are using livestock guard dogs to control predators.

Here's a photo of Brutus, a Great Pyrenees.
He thinks he's a goat..
Been raised with the goats since he was weaned - never been out the goat pens or pasture except to go to the vet.
Now that's an experience with a dog that size..

That's one beautiful dog George! God I love dogs. Here's my bundle of joy. All 100 lbs. of her. She lives to chase cats!

Eddie, congratulations on your new pond – continue to keep us up-dated with your photos.

I strongly agree with ML about Tyler Fish Farm’s CNBG and FLMB genetics.
Waldrop personally caught and transported these fish from Florida.
We stocked his fish some five years ago and they have done great.
I don’t know whether he has up-graded his Florida strain or not – I’ll leave it up to the biologists to address the in-breeding subject.

He is somewhat opinionated as many fisheries biologists are; however I strongly disagree on his “reported” failure of stocking threadfin shad in small ponds.

He tells me is a big pond/lake guy and serves the smaller guys as a “service".
There are several documented cases that disprove his opinion.

If you desire HSB in your new pond I would recommend Overton Fisheries, who I also have great results with his fish, as with Waldrop.
Both are good guys and have been very helpful to me.

Good luck,
George Glazener

N.E. Texas

George,


Yes, Bob has updated his genetics. He told me does so constantly in an effort to give his customers the very best fish he can. Very impressive fellow. By the way, he also sells HSB but prefers that his customers go with LMB.


"Reported" must be directed at me since I wrote about it on here. What he actually said and I wrote about was that he does not recommend Threadfins in small ponds and refuses to stock them in small ponds because he considers it a waste of the customers money. If you doubt my "report" call him yourself. I must warn you however, he may also tell you what he thinks of those who sell threadfins to small pond owners repeatedly in attempts to get them established.

Back to Tilapia, which is what the thread is about.

Bob-O

I don't have any experience with SMB in a pond and limited angling experience with them. However, I can say very definitely that HSB benefit from Tilapia stocking. In the fall, out in open water when the Tilapia do their death dance, the HSB put on a show worth watching. The show has to be RRR rated for violence...its brutal what the HSB do to those dieing Tilapia.

Rad,

I see the same thing...no discernable difference between the size of artificially fed Tilapia and non-fed Tilapia. The largest Tilapia I have ever caught was from a non-fed pond...and as mentioned tasted terrible. The pond, however, looked beautiful.

Pacus are in micro pond...I hope to discuss them with you at a later date on a different thread.

Yes, back to Tilapia – Since you were quoting Tyler Fish Farm, I was interested if Waldrop shares our enthusiasm for them, as well as HSB, which you have expressed your passion for them many times.
I am aware that he is recognized as a LMB authority.

I was not aware that Tyler Fish Farm handled HSB.
When I first sought stocker HSB he did not, but gave me a contact in his area.
Does he have the resources to grow them out?
He was not interested in them three years ago.

As for as your quoting secondhand information regarding TF shad in small ponds, I don’t believe that reputable dealers engage in running down their competitors, especially those that advertise in PB magazine.

I have a lot of respect for Bob Waldrup and his operation. He has built his market very strong in East Texas, and has a reputation for quality genetics. I've never heard his opinion on Tilapia, but I have personally heard him say that in bass ponds of less than 5 surface acres: "It doesn't matter what strain of bass you stock, food supply will be the main limitation on bass growth."

I've also heard ML say that florida bass are impossible to catch on artificials. Maybe that has changed. Don't understand why ML would want pure floridas based on past posts.

Bob is not the only supplier that has quality genetics on his farm. We too have quality genetics. We recently pulled our certified pure florida strain fingerlings and were able to feed-train a small percentage of them which will be grown and used for broodstock in the future with the hope of developing a more "catchable" fish. We also have a high quality strain of F1 bass, resulting from female florida/male northern strains. Will have a picture up soon.

We have hand-selected coppernose bluegill broodstock in production ponds which have given us and our customers outstanding results. Pictures of these broodstock have been posted on the forum and on our website.

We also grow advanced HSB fingerlings, mozambique tilapia, and others.

Our reputation is well documented on the forum and by our customers.

Unlike Bob, who only raises and sells fish, we offer pond management services along with our fish.

George and Todd,

First, I didn't start the discussion on Tyler Fish Farms and don't understand why you are both so sensitive about it.

George suggested an in-breeding problem and I wanted to mention that Bob told me about his continuing efforts at genetics improvement. George also said that Bob does not sell HSB. Bob had them for sale last spring when I was there. What's the big deal?

I haven't discussed Tilapia with Bob. If you want his opinions on Tilapia, I suggest you ask him.

Does he grow out HSB? I have no idea. Again, ask him if you are interested. Is he enthusiastic about HSB?...ask him.

If you have other questions about his philosophy, again I suggest you ask him. He needs no defense on this Forum, nor any other.

Reputable dealers do not run down their competitors...Bob mentioned no names and neither did I. I certainly do not believe in building oneself up by tearing others down....and don't do business with those that do. Bob made his case on threadfins to me convincingly, because he told me exactly what happened to me before I ever said anything about it.

Todd,

I haven't changed my opinion of pure strain Florida bass in the least and don't know where you inferred that. I do want Florida genetics which are available in the F1 LMB...pure strain Floridas, no. F1 LMB are a terrific fish, by everything I can determine. They are exactly the fish I want in all my predator based fishing ponds.

As related to my passion for HSB, that has waned considerably since I learned last summer, the hard way, that they will die when caught over three pounds in the summer months, in my ponds, regardless of tackle used. Then I was even more disappointed to see that Bruce had warned about this high mortality above 81 degrees a long time ago. Apparently, it is fairly common knowledge. I have no desire to carry around oxygen bottles or have my friends do the same when fishing my ponds, nor do I relish the thought of having to suspend fishing for at least 1/3 of the year in order to insure the survival of large HSB. I wish I had been told about this characteristic before I purchased them, so I could have made a more informed decision. That is my fault for not doing more homework and talking to more people. I accept the consequences for that and blame only myself for not performing the due diligence.

If you or George have further questions about Tyler Fish Farm, their genetics, or whatever, please ask Bob, not me. That way there will be no "fuzz" on the answers. I'm not interested in being a middle man nor in any contest between businesses. Life is too short for that kind of nonsense.

ML, I have the highest regard for Bob Waldrop as I have for you. I believe it was me that recommended him to you,

It was your negative comments on the forum and personal messages about "fish sellers" taking advantage of pond owners and for me to call Waldrop to verify your negative comments, that causd me to respond.

I know that you were disappointed with your TF shad experiment but surprised at your negative remarks about HSB.

I was under the impression that you considered HSB a great sport fish, but strictly a put and take fish - and great table fare.

So what if they fight 'til they die if they are for the table?

My experience has been quite different with positve results.

When I push the envelope and make mistakes, which I frequently do, I take personal responsibility for them.

Yes, I consider them a great sport fish.

Here is a real problem I am facing in 2 weeks. Three families are coming to visit over the 4th. They all want to fish. One of my favorite relatives, little Bethany whom I have written about previously, is among them.

I have some HSB now that are 5 maybe even 6 pounds. If they are caught over the 4th, they will die. It is as simple as that. You confirmed that recently in your posts on oxygen.

I don't have many of these 5 to 6 pound fish left. I caught one two weeks ago on relatively heavy spinning tackle and it died. I have a lot of time and money invested in these large fish. I am human and would like to see how large they will grow.

So, should I lock it up and allow no fishing? Should I run out and buy a bunch of oxygen bottles and fish holding tanks to save the HSB?
Or just plan on a big fish fry?

I don't like the choices...its real easy for you to just say so what if they die. It isn't that easy for me. I have a lot invested in those HSB. I hate to see them all die. Make fun of me if you want, but this is a serious issue to me.

It has taken me 4 years to get fish like this. It has cost untold money in high protein feed which I transport from Angleton. It has cost me countless hours to catch the poachers who were carrying these fish out of my pond.

Yes, its real easy to say just let them die, but not for me.

ML, now we are back on the same page - I don't like disagreeing with you since we have so much in common - this is pretty much where we started with our HSB program three years ago.

I don't like to see them die either, but I haven't klled one yet - I fish heavy leaders and land them quickly, and if necessary revive them.

I've had the luxury of living long enough and had priveledges that I will remmber forever - being self employed and semi-retired for the last 25 years hasn't hurt either ...

I have a problem with summer stress with all species that I fish for - not just HSB.
You can kill a striped bass in a heartbeat when caught in summertime deep water - I don't fish for them when near surface water reaches my cut-off of 83 degrees.

You can kill LMB as well - that's why I am serious in my laughable attemps with oxygen revival.

I stock much more heavily than you - 100, 8-10 HSB last fall and will supplement this fall with at least 50, depending how many are lost.

I've cut back on feeding and fish only in the cool morning hours.

I also have a considerable amount of expense involved as well, feeding high protein fish food, state of the art aeration, feeders, etc but am blessed with a sucessful business career that allows me to exercise my fishing options that I value highly.

I'm appreciative of the fact that you remain positive about HSB -and- "they fight like a banshee and are good table fare" if I quote you correctly.

Take care and have fun - that's what its all about...

We all have our fish and pond problems. It will never be a perfect pond world.

LMBs have a tendency to overpopulate. If they overpopulate in a pond then who's fault is it? Does it mean you shouldn't stock them?

HSBs have a tendency to fight to the death. Is it their fault? Sure is a good fight, better than a bass. Does it mean you shouldn't stock them?

And there are benefits/problems associated with having catfish, mosquito fish, threadfin shad, and any other fish in a pond.

My advise is to go with the flow. Learn something, adjust the program, eat a fish, let one go, make something happen, pay attention to detail. Don't worry so much about what could of/should of/would of been. Have fun with it.