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#69946 05/18/06 09:21 PM
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The first time I saw them was in New Mexico. They were/are huge. My impression was one of awe.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
#69947 05/18/06 10:45 PM
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We have them in Iowa along the north part of I35. I have always looked on in awe as you ride parrallel to them for approx. 50 miles.

I am in the environmental circle (to a point) in that I will be placing a windmill structure and solar cells on my next house, to help offset energy usage. Just trying to do my part and its a better alternative to the environment than relying on gas/oil for the rest of our lives.

#69948 05/18/06 11:35 PM
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This is an interesting discussion on whether they are ugly or not, but nobody is talking about the obvious. Has anybody actually made the promised income from having them on there land?

I did a google search and found both praise and complaints. There's nothing to learn from the praise, it's all golden. But on the websites that are cautious or downright negative about wind energy, you'll find that they have a certain wind speed to operate. Too much is just as bad as not enough.

Before I allowed them to do anything on my land, I'd do some research first hand. For me that means getting in my truck and driving to some wind farms and nocking on some doors of the people living there. If they are happy with it, they will tell you, and the same is true is they are not.


This is one of those decisions that once you make it, there's no undoing it. Take off a few weekends and go on a road trip, and have fun with it.

Eddie


Lake Marabou http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=139488&fpart=1

It's not how many ideas you have, but how many you make happen.

3/4 and 4 acre ponds.
#69949 05/19/06 08:51 AM
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Hi guys, I'm Buzz's neighbor and also the one who told Jack about this site. Buzz was the one who turned me on to pond boss and this site and for that I am greatful. You guys have helped me alot with my pond management. A few questions in regards to these wind farms and their effect on our property. I bought my land with the goal of retirement,wildlife and pond management as the main focus.
1.What is the main reason for income? Any future prop. taxes could be paid for with a simple grass lease for cattle.If the land is Ag exempt and bought and paid for, what other income is needed to keep it in the family? Estate planning is important.
2.Buzz, would you have bought your place with these things on your property or on your neighbors property? Would you pay top dollar?
3.The reason our land has increased in value so rapidly is because it is unique (habitat and topography) and its location in regard to the DFW area. So I have to disagree when you say our area of North Texas is not unique.
4.Everyone is talking about one water tower, one billboard or "I drive by them every day". I have to ask at what distance? Remember we are talking about a farm, not one or two of these things and they are 400ft. tall! I can't help but think they would neg.impact the land in the area. And they would look huge at half mile. I can't imagine walking to the deer blind at dark thirty and looking at these things with all those flashing red lights.
5.I still do not understand how your land becomes less desirable if you don't get in at the beginning. Why not wait and see what goes on in the area before signing up. Remember this company is in bus. to make money. If their ROI is not good because they don't have enough land they will go down the road. The installation of these are heavily subsidized programs that may or may not need to make money.
6.Would the people who think their beautiful buy a retirement place right next to them?

Just some thoughts

Thanks again to everyone who keeps this site up and running

#69950 05/19/06 10:46 AM
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Guys look at this link for perspective and pictures.

http://www.aweo.org/ProblemWithWind.html
















#69951 05/19/06 11:02 AM
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Madhatter, how long did it take for you to type this? Or did Madhatter better half type for you?

Here are my thoughts:
1. Neither you or I need the income to have our properties right now. Property taxes as long as they are ag exempt or wildlife exempt is a non issue for anyone in our state at this point.

The income that I do think going forward is important is the income vs the value of the land 20-30-40 years from now for our kids. Now maybe they have good enough jobs growing up that they can continue to afford having properties like ours and enjoying it. Or maybe they decide to be a teacher or some other profession that makes them happy but doesn't pay well. The land value going forward that many years will have to be supported by income for them to possibly pay different taxing at that time or to give them something to consider vs selling and producing the income off the value. At the end of our lives our property although very dear to all of us is still just an asset. If you have the choice of having a ranch that say is worth 10 million and produces no income versus selling the property taking the money and having income off 10 million that is a pretty easy decision. The estate issues I agree with to some point but it depends on the value of the land and the size of the rest of your estate as to whether that might work or not. Please don't think I'm stating that I'm Daddy Warbuck's.

2. I know that I would have bought the property if they were on my place and an income that I deemed worthwhile came with the property. As far as whether I would have bought it if it was on the property next to it? I don't know. In retrospect would I have bought the property w/o the mineral rights and the oil thing again? Yea, I would have but I can't honestly answer the wind turbine ubtil I get a better feel.

3. Jack misunderstood me earlier about the uniqueness comment. I do think our area is unique but no more unique than East Tx, Hill Country, West Tx or any of a # of places in many other states. They are unique in that we all have fallen in love with our own areas. I did not like the comment about the West Tx area being not unique because I think much of that land is beautiful too. The reason our land has increased in value so much is because of the demographics of the population and the supply-demand of recreational land. No different than many other parts of the country. Recreational land will continue to increase at a high rate of return.

4. As I have told you if our family is the decision on whether this goes in or not as a project you have no concerns. If however it is inevitable and we are going to have them in our area we would rather have income off of them and that income could potentially solve an income problem going forward for future generations.

5. For the answer on this you would have to talk to the company. I would suggest you talk to them.
You can tell them that you can't stand what they are doing but would like to hear their story. Just because we are talking to them means nothing. You know me well enough to know that I'm going to extract my pound of flesh out of them and certainly not carte blanche believe all that they are saying.

6. I don't know. We are going to see them in the next couple of weeks around Abilene. I'm struggling with it. Many people like them many people dont. I'm on a fact finding mission here and this is why I thought I would solicit opinions on this site because many share our interests and I respect opinions here.

Just a side note. We do not all agree on anything within the family at this point. Heated debates have ensued and most are undecided. I know at least one that would protest with you. The only difference would be at the end of the protest she would drive her big gas guzzling SUV into the garage on the ranch. Just kidding mom.

Sorry for the long windedness but I felt I needed to answer better what my(and only my)viewpoint is.

Thanks, Buzz

#69952 05/19/06 11:04 AM
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Enlightening article, ewest. Thanks.

I wondered when you were going to weigh in.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69953 05/19/06 11:26 AM
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Thank you ewest. Does it state who aweo.org is or anything about author? I read through but could not tell.

#69954 05/19/06 12:12 PM
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Sunil I am not weighing in only provided some info. I believe in informed people making the best choice for themselves. Please don't assume this is my position. I have seen wind farms in Calif. and wanted all to see a pic of one and sizes. Those are in that link. I don't know anything about the site or people. They do have some interesting points on value and problems like flying chunks of ice and lights on all the time.I think at the end is some info on the people and sources.
















#69955 05/19/06 12:46 PM
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I understand, ewest, I just meant giving some input. You know you are the "link" providing master (in addition to other things, of course).

I didn't mean to make it seem as if you were stating your own position. Bad choice of words on my part.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69956 05/19/06 01:56 PM
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I would take the offer. My parents had a similar opportunity recently...my Pop was all for it, my Mother was against it for "fear" of what the neighbors might say. She won the battle, needless to say, the three kids are somewhat amazed at how a revenue stream like that was declined. You can help future generations of your family and if you ever sell, the buyer will look at the revenue as a positive.

I would consider them as a conversation piece, every time they rotate just say...there's a penny...there's a penny... \:\)

#69957 05/19/06 02:00 PM
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Sunil :

I knew what you meant \:\) - no problem. I did not want others to misinterpret what you said.
















#69958 05/19/06 03:01 PM
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Count me out. I am a skeptical person by nature. Any technology that needs that much subsidizing (whether it be wind, ethanol, hybrid cars or ???) raises my suspicion. This is not new technology and if it was going to work, it would be able to stand on its own by now. Add to that the liability issues (if what was posted about indemnification proves true), and my benefit-to-cost ratio just tipped the wrong way. If a company won't stand beside me in court to support their product, that is a product I want no part of. As a minimum, ask them about this issue and see what they say. Seems like a pretty good case if someone were to argue that you damaged the value or their property by allowing this tower to go up. Even if they didn't win in court, it would be a hollow victory after all the legal bills.

I don't consider myself a hypocrite as I would gladly sign up for a source of energy I believe is viable. I would gladly take their money to put radioactive waste far below my pond.

#69959 05/19/06 03:33 PM
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Buzz, some folks think oil pumps jacks are ugly - some don't.... \:\)

Their grandpa's likely made the right decision.

It just depends on who you are dealing with....
Your heirs may thank you..

#69960 05/19/06 03:55 PM
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Hey Buzz, to answer your question lets just say it took a while. Pump jacks and oil tank batteries are not to be confused with these things.We are having to deal with those in our area as well. On the right dirt I can grow trees to screen those out of site. I don't know of any trees that grow 400ft. You also can't typically see pump jacks from 20 miles away.

#69961 05/19/06 05:14 PM
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MADHATTER , I understand your position, but the way iI see it , it's not about aesthetics.

You are familiar with the the Barnett Shale natuural gss play in the Fort Worth Basin, I'm sure.

Fort Worth, in the interest of residents, are fighting operators over drill site spacing, and considering ordinance changes in place for the entire state of Texas.

The homeowners are complaining - the mineral royalty owners are dancing in the streets... \:D

#69962 05/19/06 05:33 PM
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George, it is about aesthetics ,that's why I bought retirement land in the country.If I wanted to look at huge man made structures I would have bought in Dallas. Funny you should mention Barnett Shale production, Buzz and I are both dealing with this issue without owning any mineral intrest. We are trying to make the best of a bad situation. To me these windmills are not the same as oil or gas wells.

#69963 05/19/06 06:15 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by MADHATTER:
George, it is about aesthetics ,that's why I bought retirement land in the country.If I wanted to look at huge man made structures I would have bought in Dallas. Funny you should mention Barnett Shale production, Buzz and I are both dealing with this issue without owning any mineral intrest. We are trying to make the best of a bad situation. To me these windmills are not the same as oil or gas wells.
I appreciate your position - proper advise on any large finacial investment, recreational or otherwise, should be carefully considered.

#69964 05/28/06 05:56 PM
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Thanks ewest for the link. That one is a dandy. Lots of darn good information there. We found another good one recently, www.windcows.com . Try it out.

We had our first little group meeting the other day. 15 interested land owners showed up. Made good head way. Setting up a website of our own, scheduling a big community wide meeting for a month or so down the line.

Been good chatting with ya'll. And thanks for having me. Maybe I can come back one day and read up on what to do with my pond. Oh, by the way, we calls 'em TANKS here in TEXAS.

Poor Old Jack


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#69965 05/29/06 11:39 AM
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I wouldn't not deter me. How's that for a blunt straight answer.

But, your issues seems not to be with the money (solved by ag exemption), view (if they might put them where you are going to see them anyway), or resale value. It seems to be what your future generations might do with the property. Talk to them. See where they stand on things.

I have a friend who has good size ranches in Colorado and his sons don't want any part of it and would rather sell it and buy a place on the Gulf.

Good luck.

#69966 05/31/06 06:34 PM
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Interesting article in the Chicago Trib...politics per usual. You need an acct to access, so I'm gonna use bandwidth and cut/paste it. I thought our "wind-farm players" would appreciate the input.
 Quote:
FAA takes the wind out of wind farms
Critics blame politics after agency suspends projects in Midwest

By Michael Hawthorne
Tribune staff reporter
Published May 31, 2006


The federal government has stopped work on more than a dozen wind farms planned across the Midwest, saying research is needed on whether the giant turbines could interfere with military radar.

But backers of wind power say the action has little to do with national security. The real issue, they say, is a group of wealthy vacationers who think a proposed wind farm off the coast of Cape Cod in Massachusetts would spoil the view at their summer homes.

Opponents of the Cape Wind project include several influential members of Congress. Critics say their latest attempt to thwart the planting of 130 turbines in Nantucket Sound has led to a moratorium on new wind farms hundreds of miles away in Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota.

Federal officials declined to reveal how many stop-work orders have been sent out. But developers said that at least 15 wind farm proposals in the Midwest have been shut down by the Federal Aviation Administration since the start of the year.

The list of stalled projects includes one outside Bloomington, Ill., that would be the nation's largest source of wind energy, generating enough juice to power 120,000 homes in the Chicago area. The developer had planned to begin installing turbines this summer and start up the farm next year.

"This is a big, ugly political maneuver by a handful of people who are undermining America's energy security," said Michael Vickerman, executive director of RENEW Wisconsin, a non-profit group that promotes renewable power.

Vickerman and others said that despite the government's recent concern about proposed wind projects, it is allowing dozens of current wind farms to continue to operate within sight of radar systems.

The bureaucratic entanglements come as President Bush is encouraging the use of more wind power as a solution to the skyrocketing prices of oil and natural gas, and for environmental problems such as global warming. During a speech in Milwaukee three months ago, Bush said wind turbines eventually could provide 20 percent of the nation's energy needs.

Harnessing the wind is a clean and relatively inexpensive way to generate electricity without the troublesome byproducts of coal or nuclear power. But the vast collections of turbines--some of which are 40 stories tall--are derided by opponents as unreliable and unsightly.

Of the scores of projects proposed around the country, perhaps the most controversial has been Cape Wind. If approved, it will be the first offshore wind farm in the United States.

Most of the opposition focuses on the proposed location in a channel between Cape Cod and Martha's Vineyard, the bucolic Massachusetts vacation areas frequented by many high-profile celebrities, business executives and politicians.

Critics of Cape Wind include members of the Kennedy family, whose summer compound is on Cape Cod. Both U.S. Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and his nephew, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., have said the turbines would spoil the ocean views, threaten the local tourist economy and endanger migratory birds.

The younger Kennedy, an environmental lawyer and activist who has supported wind power in other parts of the country, said putting a wind farm in Nantucket Sound would be akin to placing one in the Grand Canyon or Yellowstone National Park.

"This isn't the right location, for a number of reasons," Kennedy said.

Another opponent is U.S. Sen. John Warner (R-Va.), who has tried several times to block the Cape Wind project. In a 2002 letter to the Army Corps of Engineers, Warner included a handwritten note saying he often visits Cape Cod, which he called a "national treasure."

But the project continued to move forward until late last year, when Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, slipped an amendment into a military spending bill. The one-sentence congressional order directs the Defense Department to study whether wind towers could mask the radar signals of small aircraft.

Since then, at the Defense Department's behest, the FAA has been blocking any new wind turbines within the scope of radar systems used by the military.

Warner's amendment also appears to have reversed the government's position on the Cape Wind proposal. Both the FAA and the Air Force had previously signed off on the project, which would be located within miles of a missile defense radar system.

"This has nothing to do with wind," said Michael Polsky, president and chief executive officer of Invenergy, a Chicago company with projects in Illinois and Wisconsin that have been blocked by the government. "It has everything to do with politics."

Warner's office did not return telephone calls seeking comment. A spokesman previously released a statement saying the Defense Department study "ensures that Congress will possess as much information as possible on wind farms' impact on military operations."
Opponents of the Cape Wind project say there are legitimate concerns about wind farms interfering with radar. They point to a study by the British Ministry of Defense that found the rotation of turbines could cause the signal of a small aircraft to disappear temporarily from radar.

Developers solved the problem by installing new software at the radar installation and realigning some towers, said Laurie Jodziewicz, a policy specialist for the American Wind Energy Association, an industry trade group. The British government later dropped its blanket opposition to proposed wind farms.

Still, U.S. officials said they need more information before allowing projects here to move forward.

"Until the potential effects can be quantified and possible mitigation techniques developed, it is prudent to temporarily postpone wind turbine construction in areas where the ability of these long-range radars that protect our country might be compromised," said Eileen Lainez, a Defense Department spokeswoman.

Nothing is expected to change until the department's study is completed. It is unclear when that will happen, Lainez said.

For companies trying to develop more alternative energy sources, the sudden change in government policy is another frustrating hurdle.

Horizon Wind Energy, the company building the proposed wind farm outside Bloomington, already has hired experts to ensure the 243 towers spread over 50 square miles wouldn't affect historic sites, endangered species or migratory bird flyways.

The company also has promised to arrange for subsidized cable service or other options if the towers interfere with local television reception. And it has vowed to repave roads after construction crews finish putting up the towers.

Based on the experience of other wind energy companies working in the Midwest, Horizon thought getting a federal permit would be the least of its worries.

"We're hoping an amicable solution can be figured out in the near future," said Michael Skelley, Horizon's chief development officer. "The solutions are there and they're available, but right now there's nothing we can do about it."


#69967 05/31/06 06:48 PM
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This sounds very similar to some proponents of the continued flooding across our borders by illegal aliens, until some move down the street or next door to them. \:\(
Be known that I believe wind is not a viable energy option, but a nuclear generating plant in New England would be. There already are nuke subs based there.


#69968 06/01/06 05:57 AM
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Brettski, yep, politics as usual.

Everyone wants cheap energy as long as it is produced elsewhere.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
#69969 03/04/07 07:25 AM
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(thought I would kinda revive this thread)...when I ran into this link in another forum: Wave Power . And this link about Portugal\'s wave power . And the U.S. is considering Oregon\'s potential

#69970 03/04/07 08:50 AM
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Pretty neat stuff Brett. 5 will get you 10 that none of the wave powered thangs will be deployed off Chappaquidduck. It will have the same aesthetic problems of wind turbines.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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