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#69921 05/18/06 08:36 AM
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heybud, that is a great thought. I think you are dead on. The future is looking interestinger and interestinger. Thus my concern about generating income to keep ranch in family.

#69922 05/18/06 09:03 AM
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 Quote:
From an alternative energy standpoint that is certainly one way to stick it in the Middle East's ear.
One has to remember that the United States gets most of its electricity needs from coal. Wind farms will help in that respect. If we all start driving electric cars, then our oil needs will be less.



To Dam or not to dam

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#69923 05/18/06 01:35 PM
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As far as if to go ahead and let them put up one
of these monster windmills on your land or hope it's ends up somewhere else out of your view.
Just look a history, look what happen to the towns that didn't want (or ask too much) the rail road tacks (Interstate, ect.) near them, many became a Ghost Town. It's a catch 22; but just like in fishin' in life you got to let you pole bend & line drag and even go in or to the other side of the pond so not to lose you hook,line & sinker.

#69924 05/18/06 01:47 PM
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I live on 10 acres in as rural a part of Indiana as you can really get and my parents own another 35 next door. Much of it is wooded and me and my dad use it for recreation. Our land is on top of a good sized hill (for Indiana).

Nobody's gonna offer us any money to put windmills on our land, but I could see a cell company coming in and wanting to put up a tower. I wouldn't have one in my yard or out in the open pasture, but if they wanted 1/3 of an acre on the very top of the hill (which is wooded) and were willing to pay me for it I'd be all for it.

I don't know what they pay for that kind of thing, a couple hundred a year perhaps? If they were willing to guarantee that for 50 years I'd snatch it up. It's not the prettiest thing to look at, but I'd be making some money to help offset property taxes and providing a somewhat useful commodity. I've had to learn to live with alot of things that I don't like. None of them have paid me for the inconvenience.

#69925 05/18/06 02:51 PM
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Jack Schoppa here again. I see that I should have introduced myself a little better, but I needed to get on topic. But, I truly thank you for the welcome, I will try to be deserving.

Yes, one of Mr. Tatom's neighbors mentioned that I might want to check this forum out.

After scanning several of the posts it appeared as though there were some misconceptions of exactly what we were talking about, specifically the size and appearance of these things. They are NOT at all like power lines or oil wells. Also, and completely understandably, you guys could have no idea about the aesthetic appeal of this little "pocket" of dirt located just between the D/FW metromess and west Texas. THAT, in and of its self, IS the focal point of the entire issue.

Like you, Mr. Tatom, I too am a "hippocrit". Yes, alternative energy is GREAT, just not here. At least not now anyway. I can't help that. It has got to do with the land, not me. If I lived in Dallas I would think the same thing about this area. But, in my feeble opinion, and in this specific case, the value of the view, and for MILES around I might add, so far outweighs the value the windmill will ever produce that the notion does not even deserve consideration.

To respond to another point brought by another poster, who is also exactly correct, I desparately NEED hard facts to prove my opinion of land devaluation. I am trying. Here is what I have found so far:

1 - The wind energy company will ALWAYS claim there is no devaluation. And they will have some evidence of that.

2 - In some locations there likely is no devaluation.

3 - In some other locations there obviously ARE devaluations, getting one's hands on specific case studies is time consuming and expensive, but I am trying. I make this claim based on the research that I have done thus far, mostly on the internet, and, no, I do not have my hands on specific case studies at this point.

4 - In this specific location there is no data to be had because the windmills are not here yet, so we are working with a hypothetical condition. To compare data from other locations you would have to have similar physical, market and economic characteristics as THIS location, which is quite unique, which compounds the problem. Which is the reason that I use the comparison to a land fill and a power line (except on poles twice as tall as a water tower). Try to imagine a fan the size of a 747 whirling around on a small school bus sitting on top of a pole twice as tall as a water tower. Now try to imagine the scene if there are 180 of those things strung out over about 20 miles. Is there any possible way that could have anything but a negative affect on anyone except possibly the guy who has 10 or 15 of them?

Now, to speak to THAT issue. And, again, based only on 20 years of real estate and appraisal experience and cases I am familiar with that involve other forms of external obsolescence, I would have to argue that the long term devaluation of a property that actually had, say, one windmill on it would be so significant that the income from one wind mill at, say, $10,000 per year would never make up the difference in value lost, unless the property wasn't worth much to begin with. (oops. That is another thing you guys aren't familiar with, property values in this area. I don't really have time to get into all that except to say that they are pretty darn good right now and only getting better. I believe that Mr. Tatom may have commented in an early post that his property value had doubled or tripled in just the past few years. Is that correct? If not, then please accept my humble apology in advance. But I do believe Mr. Tatom would agree that property values are good and getting better.) Thus, the magic question, how many wind mills does it take to offset the, and I will give you this one, "possible" loss in property value? Here is my answer to that question: no number. Now I will attempt to qualify that answer. My feeble opinion, and BASED ON PRIOR YEARS LOCAL MARKET DATA, is that these property values will appreciate at a far faster rate over the next, say, 20 years WITHOUT the wind farm in the area than any number of windmills on a "typical" property could generate in income over the same period of time.

Now if you take that answer out to west Texas, or anywhere else for that matter, where market conditions and land values are completely different, it would likely not apply. But right HERE, in THIS particular location, I think it does. What do you think Mr. Tatom?

Ok. Sorry so long winded again. I will probably not check back into this forum, leave to you "homies". Just wanted to try to get everyone sort of on the same page as you provide advice to Mr. Tatom. If you really want to learn more for yourself I would recommend you take just a moment and check out the article on my website at

WWW.NORTHTEXASPROPERTIES.COM

and/or google up "Wind Farms". If you spend about three weeks doing that, you will be able to verify everything I have commented on. The article on my website will save you some time.

Thank you for allowing me into your forum. By the way, I need your expertise now, what can I do about those weeds in my pond? And the turtles, how to get rid of those darn things? Yeah, I got my .22 zeroed in so I can pop them boogers from my front porch, but I ain't always sittin' on my front porch. I been spendin' way too much time researchin' windmills to be popin' turtles.

Anyway, I do appreciate all of your time to read my posts, I hope it helped some, and I wish you all the best.

Private note to Mr. Tatom, stop by and see me some time. Well, actually, any of you can stop by and see me anytime you're in the the big town of Saint Jo, Texas. You'll be glad you came, well, unless we got big windmills all over the place then you will more than likely just drive on through.

Respectfully,
Poor Old Jack Schoppa


Jack Schoppa
#69926 05/18/06 03:19 PM
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Those things are good looking. Looks like progress to me. They look futuristic, like something one would see in a science fiction movie or Star Wars or something. Do they make a lot of noise?


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#69927 05/18/06 03:42 PM
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Quote by Mr. Tatom "One of the things I found interesting is based upon other projects the utility company has in operation those 180 towers will generate enough electricity to power 500,000 homes."

I would look closely at this information and verify it. 180 towers for 1/2 million homes. That is nearly 2800 homes per tower. Now does anyone really believe that one of these, even if the size of a small bus, will supply that many homes? Think about it.


#69928 05/18/06 03:44 PM
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 Quote:
Do they make a lot of noise?
They are fairly quiet, Lincoln has two of them just North of the I-80, I drive by them frequently on the way to our pond. The current Windmills designs are however very efficient bird killers.



#69929 05/18/06 03:57 PM
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Shorty, tell us, are they unsightly in real life? I googled some phots and they aren't that bad.


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#69930 05/18/06 04:10 PM
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They are not that bad, but they do look much BIGGER in person than they do in any of the photos I have seen. They can bee seen from quite a distance.



#69931 05/18/06 04:14 PM
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"Lincoln has two of them"

These are no doubt on Condello's land.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69932 05/18/06 04:29 PM
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Burgermeister, I would agree that sounds difficult but they have several farms and have a pretty solid track record. I will try and verify though.

I will of course see some in person before making any kind of a decision.

Jack, I'm not sure that I would say our area is any more unique than any other area. I think your point of view is to try and prevent it from happening. My point of view at this point is if this is going to happen what are the "Tatoms" going to do. I think it is likely to happen. There is a part of me that says it is good for the country and that progress and the way the world is changing is going to make it unpreventable. If it is unpreventable then we are trying to figure out the best thing. I have talked to a number of people that think they are beautiful.

I've also seen pictures of rows and rows of them and I think that is ugly. If they are fairly spread out how do they look? I don't know. That is what I'm trying to figure out.

The few refernces say they are extremely quiet and that the newer versions are not a hindrance to birds.

#69933 05/18/06 04:39 PM
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I did a quick search on turbine specs. Most are 100 KiloWatts output at 22 kts. wind speed. The figures you stated would require that each unit put out 20 Megawatts or 200 times what one actually puts out. I think what was meant is that 180 FARMS of about 200 turbines would supply 500,000 people.

not trying to discourage you, just want the facts to be presented.


#69934 05/18/06 04:47 PM
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Schoppa here again. Quickly, I forgot to mention one very important thing.

And, thanks to Burgermeister above, you absolutely should question everything this company does. First, they require Confidentiality Agreement because they do not want news of their presence in an area known. Why do you think that is?

Ok, two things. But this was really the first thing. We have been in contact with an attorney who is representing some folks out in Abeline dealing with this same company (SAME energy company mind you) and he has been at this for almost a year out there. So, he has at least a year on the learning curve in dealing with this specific company. This attorney tells us that there is no "indemnification clause" (I may have misspelled that) in the lease agreements. That's right. If a landowner, in this case who has no windmills, files a suit against an INDIVIDUAL LAND OWNER, in this case who has windmills, and can, of course, PROVE damages in court, the energy company will NOT "indemnify" the individual land owner.

In other words, the individual land owner who chooses to place windmills on his property and causes PROVABLE damage to another may be sued INDIVIDUALLY and has NO recourse to the energy company.


I find that both interesting AND astonishing.


All I can say about that is ----


OOoopps!!!! There goes about 20 years of my income from my windmills......


Darn the luck....


That is straight from the attorney who has been dealing with this specific company for about a year. He sent me a copy of the actual lease agreement and I have it in my office.

Thanks again folks.

Poor Old Jack Schoppa


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#69935 05/18/06 04:57 PM
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Burgermeister, there are different sizes of wind turbines. This one farm is too supply approximately 500,000 homes. If it gets on further down the road I will get someone to back that up.

#69936 05/18/06 05:00 PM
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Mr. Tatom,
Glad to see you so close.

So we gotta disagree about the uniqueness of our area. That is ok. I can't beleive it. But it is ok.

You sound like you have made your mind up that it is a done deal.

Let me ask you a couple of quick questions directly, hopefully you are still on the forum, if there is a 50-50 chance that it IS preventable would you rather HAVE say 180 of these things in the area or would you rather NOT have them?

What if it is a 20-80 chance? (20% we WILL and 80% we WON'T)

What if it is 80-20? (80% we WILL and 20% we WON'T)

I will hang around for few minutes and check back.

Poor Old Jack


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#69937 05/18/06 05:14 PM
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Personally, I'd rather have a Transcontinental oil pipleline to Iraq. \:D


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#69938 05/18/06 05:22 PM
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Ok. I gotta git. I guess you had to leave too, sir.

I am very happy to see that you will go see some up close and personal. Take a camera along and take some pictures.

Another good idea is to take a map along and mark on the map where you are when you can see them, take pictures from that distance and mark on the map where the windmills actually are and then you can get a real good idea of how far away you can see them and how big they look from varying distances.

And then, if you would, let me know what you think.

Respectfully,
Poor Old Jack


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#69939 05/18/06 05:29 PM
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Mr. Tatom, yes there are turbines up to 200Kw. It is not just conjecture that 180 turbines cannot supply 1/2 million homes, and as per the Pond Boss Forum administrators, it is the obligation of people that know to point out these discrepencies. This is not a political stance, I would love to see more alternative energy sources. I plan on buying a hybrid car next year, but facts are facts.
I have also seen the props for the windmills off and on loaded at the port of Houston on railroad flat cars. They are huge. But not 20 megawatts huge.


#69940 05/18/06 05:38 PM
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I knew you couldn't stay away Jack. ;\)
I will report back on what I find. On the probability question, no one in our family has made up our mind. We are listening to the situation. There are even differing opinions w/in the family at any given time.

As a person in my 40's with kids I have been trying to figure out how to preserve the ability of future generations to have flexibility to keep this place.

It is my opinion that if you don't generate income from it they will not have a very hard decision to make when it comes to ongoing income vs value of a one time sale.

We will continue to learn so we can make an informed decision.

#69941 05/18/06 05:56 PM
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I live in West Texas where windmills are abundant around Rankin, Mcamey, Sweetwater. They are putting more up everyday. I equate this to drilling offshore Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi. It's okay for these states to do it but God forbid Florida or the East or West coast have to drill off their coast. Everyone says lets put them in West Texas cause its ugly anyway. We are all gonna have to committ to altenative energy. We are gonna run out of oil and gas and sooner than we think. If you don't want them on your land then you should be prepared to pay the rising cost of energy, it's a comin'. If no one wants to sacrafice then so be it. I really don't mind looking at them and if a company was willing to pay me a good price for having them then bring them on. They will eventually be something that we all see on a daily basis anyway. They are no more anoying than billboards we look at and at least they provied some relief from oil and gas prices.


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#69942 05/18/06 05:59 PM
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I've driven through the new Horse Hollow Wind farm between San Angelo & Abilene. I almost hate to admit it, but I thought they "looked" pretty cool. Now whether I would think that if they were on my property, or more importantly...my neighbors property, is another thing. I have traveled alot in West & Southwest Texas in the last few years and have seen quite a few wind farms. I never really saw any of them as being "eyesores". I don't know if it was the desolate land they tended to be on or the basic clean white look/design of them. It's getting harder and harder for people to make a living off the land and for next generations to hold onto family property. If wind energy is indeed the great alternative we have been looking for, then they will have to go "somewhere"....and chances are, "somewhere" will be where someone doesn't want them to be.


It ain't much of story if you don't have pictures!
#69943 05/18/06 07:10 PM
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During a jaunt into south-central Wisconsin to look at another potential pond-property, as we motored with the broker between a couple of properties, we came by a wind farm of about a dozen towers. I had never seen it up close (let alone afar). They are awesome mega-structures. So is Sears Tower in Chicago. I wouldn't want to live where I would have to look at either one of them as long as I had a choice...MY choice.
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So, what is going to happen to these wind farms if the U.S. re-establishes construction of more nuclear reactors? Is it possible nuclear power will become the hi volume electricity producer of choice? The US hit it's oil production peak in the 70's The mid-east is estimated to hit their peak within 30 years or less. How much coal is left and how long can we afford it's emission problems? Is natural gas the answer? What's left with the nuts to power the size of a society we will see in 2030? Is it nuclear, like it or not? And, if it is, will there really be any need for wind farms?

#69944 05/18/06 07:48 PM
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Maybe there will be an alternative soon. I have been following the progress of this company for several years. The empirical evidences for the excess energy is overwhelming. I have been an amateur physics buff for years. The early physicists always followed empirical experimental data. After quantum physics became so much theory above any laboratory experiment and became so entrenched into the curriculum's of physics departments, an unheard of departure from reality became the norm. Along comes Mills and brings back some unexplainable empirical data and the physics community can't stand it. They have fought the truth coming to the light with every bit of power they can muster.

http://www.blacklightpower.com/

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/WSJ%201.9.06%20C3.pdf


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#69945 05/18/06 08:57 PM
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They have these large wind mills in Somerset County where my pond is located. I can't see them from my property, but it is very "hilly" and mountainous terrain, so you'd have to be at the right angle.

The ones in Somerset County, PA. are not the massive grids of windmills; they are more sporadic. There may be a single line of them going along a small mountain range.

If they were to go up on your property, or adjacent to your property, Buzz, I don't think you'd walk out of your cabin everyday and curse the living sh#t out of them. You would eventually get used to it, and many times you would not even think about it when they are in plain site.

To me, it's seeming to boil down to two points:

A) If it is truly inevitable that they are going up in your area, you may as well make money from it.

B) Is it even possible to get a favorable legal deal from the wind power company?

Also, as a side note, Coal Burning Boilers represent the majority of fossil fuel for electricity in the USA. Natural Gas burning boilers are too expensive to be the mainstays for power companies with the price of natural gas. However, states like California have stupidly banned coal burning in their state. Very few boilers burn oil. Mostly, gas burners have the capacity to burn oil only so the boiler owner can tell the gas company to cram it if they try to stick it to them on gas pricing.


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"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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