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#69896 05/16/06 12:53 PM
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Without knowing all the details, it sounds like you may as well reap the monetary benefit simply because someone else will if you don't. Then you'll still have the sight issue.

This is just my speculation, but I would guess that the wind company would enter into talks with numerous parties and eventually settle on the path of least resistance ie/ the easiest party to negotiate with.

While I would attempt to negotiate the best deal for my family, there might be a fine line somewhere by which they would call off negotiations and revert to the next land owner in line.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69897 05/16/06 12:54 PM
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ML, I hear you about the great state of Texas.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69898 05/16/06 12:57 PM
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At most it would be 4 or 5 wind generators but the diameter of the blades can fit a 747 inside of them. That tells you a little bit more on how big they are.

What would I do? You would be fighting a losing battle. I would probably wish that money was coming to my family instead of his. That is my problem. Don't want to mess up my neighbors but if it is inevitable and I have to look at them from afar I would just as soon the money come to my family.

#69899 05/16/06 12:59 PM
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...can they be fitted with aerators?

#69900 05/16/06 01:05 PM
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Sunil that is certainly the way the wind power company is positioning it. It remains to be seen whether that happens.

One of my problems that I have is how much complaining I've done in how many other states don't want the drilling or refineries but they will sure complain all the way to the gas pump.

I'm finding I'm as good of a hippocrite as the next guy.

#69901 05/16/06 01:07 PM
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Brettski clarify your aerator comment...Not sure where yo're going. If your talking about for a pond that would reaaly oxygenate you fast.

#69902 05/16/06 01:26 PM
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if you dont need the money...but are concerned about the future liability that you put on your children, why no consider putting the land in an easement that will save a BUNCH of money in the long run?

are you interested in adopting me?

#69903 05/16/06 01:37 PM
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2thDoc, I'm too much of a hard*** then we would have to go to counseling and get in touch with the inner us. Not worth it.

Easements aren't real big in Tx and probably would hurt your value a lot more than a wind farm in your backyard. Not interested.

My comment about the money is that the value of the land now and not having any income from it will totally change 10, 20, 30 years from now and if my kids want to keep it they have the income from the land to support that decision. If they want to sell so be it, I just want them to have options.

#69904 05/16/06 01:44 PM
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My grandmother used to say, "they can always print more money but they never make more land." ;\)



#69905 05/16/06 01:52 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?
Complicated question for me, Buzz, long answer coming.

Simplified as much as possible, if the appearance and noise (I've no idea about that - maybe they creak constantly \:D ) didn't bother me, the windmills wouldn't. I reserve the right to complain long and loud while trying to negotiate land prices down before buying.

Now the complicated part - what's a nuisance? The cell phone tower that didn't go up on my place went up catty-cornered across the road. I can see the top 1/2 of it or so over our horse barn from my house. It doesn't bother me one whit.

But the house closest to it (not belonging to the lease money collector) is having kittens, puppies, and cows about it - screaming in the paper, calling all the neighbors, complaining to state politicians. Partially this may be an ex-in-law jealousy problem (the couple in the "offended" house went so far as having the natural gas line crossing their property to the "offending" house, put in without a deeded right-of-way, forcibly removed - shutting off the heat last Winter in the house their niece and nephew live in. And some of us think OUR families may be disfunctional!)

But all the time this couple is screaming about a cell tower, my wife and I have noted that they have a high-tension power line (the same one on my place) running up their driveway and right past their house that they don't seem to notice. It was there when they built their house.

I think "nuisance" is mostly "not used to it" in this context. How often have you seen an attractive telephone pole? But have you ever been bothered to the point of complaint, or do you just accept them because they've "always" been there?

I think if wind power really takes off (as it should although not necessarily will, IMHO), a windfarm next door will be no more annoying to most people than a telephone pole in your front yard. Most of us won't much notice or care.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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#69906 05/16/06 02:08 PM
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Theo reminds me that I need to clarify my own situation.

I live right next door to a big blue water tower. I'd estimate it's 150-200' tall, and maybe 150' in diameter. It's like a big egg that sits on 12 legs.

Basicially, I've grown up next to the thing from 9 years old. This was my parents house. I didn't live there for about 10 years after college. Then they moved and made me the "offer I couldn't refuse" to buy the house.

So I am desensitized. I mean this thing is right next to my house, maybe 200' way, with nothing in between.

As an example, my neighbor, who is a big model train enthusiast, had a real train caboose plopped down in his back yard. Most other neighbors were shocked and wanted to protest.

I thought WTF, what's another few tons of carbon steel laying around to me?

Now the rub.....What will all those things, water tower & caboose, mean when I sell?

Exactly the same questions that Buzz is asking.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69907 05/16/06 02:47 PM
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 Quote:
Brettski clarify your aerator comment...Not sure where yo're going. If your talking about for a pond that would reaaly oxygenate you fast.
sorry Buzz...I forgot the "smartipants" Graemlins ;\) \:D

#69908 05/16/06 03:47 PM
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"I thought ***, what's another few tons of carbon steel laying around to me?"

For some reason Sunil, this comment cracked me up. \:\)

#69909 05/16/06 04:20 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz
Buzz, to find out for certain, you would need to see what two very similar properties sell for, with the only difference being one has a view of the wind mills and the other does not, and you would need to review as many of these sales/scenerios as possible. An appraiser who specializes in this could be consulted. You would hopefully find one in your state, if not, an expert in this very narrow niche could be consulted from other parts of the country, and be ready to pay dearly.

Using a cheap man's method, you will notice that people will build almost anywhere. Go out and look. Look for TVA substations, and powerlines, or whatever the electric authority has out there, and see if it matters. To me, they are much uglier than windmills, but I've never seen them(windmills) in person. Around here, there are plenty of half million dollar homes, almost directly under TVA powerlines.

Bottom line is, to come close to prove mathematically what you should do is going to be a costly endeavor. If you plan to never sell, you may want the income, assumnig there are no negative things caused by these windmills. I mean the Power substations and lines are suspects of causing cancer, and people still live in and around them. Surely your situation wouldn't be so bad.

Good luck.


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#69910 05/16/06 04:43 PM
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This appears to be a win win situation for you. Would a pumping oilwell deter some people from buying? What if they got the mineral rights? Those of us fortunate enough to be able to own a recreactional property are faced with the same problem. How do you keep it in the family? It will become increasingly harder for future generations to purchase rec property. We know the vast benefits of a rec property and it is our job to pass that wisdom on to our children and grandchildren. The windmills provide a way to help your family keep the property and provide clean electricity. A win win for all. Windmills ,generating income, located in a non productive area of a rec property would be a plus for me. I am currently high fencing my place and some people would not consider a high fenced rec properety. Go for it and good luck.

#69911 05/16/06 05:10 PM
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BUZZ if you don't wantem or if they are looking for other land owners please send them my way. Anything that will generate 2000$ plus income a month would be the most beautiful feature on my property. No land in Texas unless it is in the path of metro sprawl will ever increase at that rate. You no what the farmer in west Texas said the most Beautiful think he has ever seen looking over his ranch was the sight of his registered poled Hereford laying in the shade of a pump jack. They can find me at www.rockytoppers.com



The road goes on forever and the party nevers end...............................................
#69912 05/17/06 06:19 PM
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My name is Jack Schoppa. I am a real estate appraiser and broker in the small town near Mr. Tatom's property.

Since I learned about this proposed project I have done extensive research on industrial wind farms and have condensed what I have learned into an article of my own relevant to this particular project.

In my defense please allow me to state that I am all for alternative energy sources. I am plenty sick and tired of paying $75+- to fill my pick up. (And, no, I can't properly tend to my few old cows with out a big pick up.) Also, in my defense, I have not read every post here, I have only scanned several of them.

I will say that some comments are right on target. Others are not.

One thing that you need to understand is that this little area is very scenic with rolling hills and mature trees. It is known as the "North Texas Hill Country" and some have identified it as "A Little Colorado in Texas". And it is these scenic rural views that create the demand that drives the property values in this area. A short distance to the south and east is the beginnings of the D/FW metroplex and the congestion associated with that. Shortly to the west is the rocky, Mesquite covered plains of west Texas. To the north is Oklahoma which is a completely different market. So, we are, in fact, in a unique little "pocket" that is currently in high demand primarily for its scenic rural views, privacy, and short distance to the D/FW metromess. Folks out of the D/FW metromess flock (and I do mean flock) to this area on weekends just to drive around, visit our small town stores and see the countryside. So, I hope that this helps you to understand why THIS particular site is important to us local folks.

Another misconception I seemed to notice repeatedly is about the size of these industrial windmills. I notices one of the posts was from a guy who has lived beside a water tower for his whole life and has become "desensitized" to it. Well, that is a good thing for him, but will he have to find someone who is already "pre-desensitized" to something similar to that to sell his house to? Might he have to accept a lower price than a similar house a mile away from the water tower in order to sell it?

So, please allow me to present a brief description of the actual size of these boogers so everyone will be thinking along the same line.

FOUNDATION: The concrete and steel foundation is 14 feet in diameter and 28 feet deep in the ground and weighs 167 TONS. What will happen with these in 50 or 100 years when the windmills are removed?

TOWER: The tower alone is 260+ feet tall. That is very similar to TWO TIMES the height of our local water tower and is 14 feet in diameter. That ain't like no high line pole.

GENERATOR: The generator that sits on top of the tower is as big as a small school bus and weighs about half again as much as a D-9 Caterpillar bulldozer (for those who may not know, those are the really BIG bulldozers).

BLADES: Each blade is 131 feet long, about the same as our water tower and weighs 6.5 TONS. The "fan" created by the three blades is very similar in circumfrence to a 747 Jumbo Jet. Think about how far away a jet is when you see them flying in the sky. Well, that is how far away you can see these things. When a blade is at its high point during rotation it is 393 feet in the air, about the same as THREE water towers, or about one and one-third football fields. The "fan" only rotates at about 22 rounds per minute but the tips of the blades are moving at about 180 miles per hour. That is a big circle.

COMMENT: Try to imagine a "fan" the size of a 474 and weighing about 19.5 TONS whirling around on a small school bus mounted on top of two water towers.

VISIBILITY: I have personally seen the wind farm out west of Abilene, Texas, from what I scaled on a map to be right at 60 miles. Of course that is much flatter country than here. They look obvious at 40 miles away and look big at 30 miles away. You can see them, and the shadows they cast, from the air when you fly over that country in a commercial jet. These here things ain't nothing like no oil wells or no power lines.

THE ENERGY COMPANY AND THE DOMINO EFFECT: The energy company came into this part of the country about a year ago. They pinpointed key locations and contacted those land owners and had them sign CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS stating that they would not talk about this project with anyone. That is why I felt the duty and responsibility to write the article after I learned of the project. I NEEDED to let my neighbors know what was about to happen to us. Now, if this is such a good thing, why do you think the energy company requires Confidentiality Agreements?

The energy company moved into this area quickly and quietly, spotted a few key locations, convinced those land owners how rich they would get and then made them swear to secrecy. Quite a plan huh? Then when the news does finally break, as Mr. Tatom referred to in several of his posts, the energy company can claim that his neighbor has already "signed up" and so, since he is going to have to look at his neighbors windmills, he may as well go ahead and sign up too. A ploy that works just as the energy company would have it.

INCOME: They say they pay a nominal annual fee and then each windmill generates about $4,500 to $15,000 per year depending on how much electricity your windmill generates. And they are not required to even generate any electricity. If the market price of electricity goes down, they slow production, just like OPEC.

FINANCIAL FEASIBILITY AND PROJECT PROGRESS: I do not know how many land owners have "signed up". And I do not know how many windmills it will take to make the project financially feasible for the energy company. They may already have as many as they need and the project may be a "go". But I do know that they are contacting some land owners who are in the line of choice that have NOT signed up, like Mr. Tatom. It would be my feeble opinion that if enough land owners can focus on the long term affects to the entire area and not focus so much on dollar signs, that there are likely enough "holes" in the line to keep the project from being feasible and the energy company may just go away.

As for property values, well, what do you think? As a real estate appraiser and broker I would consider these things to be an "external obsolescence". Something similar to a large trash dump land fill project, or a HUGE power transmission line (except on poles TWICE as tall as a water tower) moving into an area. What effect does something like that normally have on property values?

Well, that is all I have time for now. For more information I have posted my entire article on my website at

WWW.NORTHTEXASPROPERTIES.COM

click on the button for Wind Farm Article. Or simply google up "Wind Farms".

Respectfully,
Jack Schoppa


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#69913 05/17/06 06:41 PM
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Jack, I want to make certain that you have not misunderstood my post, or at least it's message.

Having lived next to this water tower, I am desensitized to it. I fully expect that we will get less for our house then we would if we were located elsewhere, when and if we ever sell.

Due to my own financial situation, I have no concerns about it.

Most of us have based our comments on not knowing all the specific details of this story.

My blanket statement would be that if, and only if, these windmills are inevitable, within sight of you property, then you will have the "scourge" of them regardless. If that is the case, you might want to make some money on it. As far as power generation equipment, most of it (and I stress "most") is not as enviromentally damaging as hydrocarbons.

I am pleased to hear that you have factual information about this topic as I only wish the best for Buzz and his family. I am also glad that you have information as to the true financial pay-offs of such wind mills.

I would like to ask, just out of curiosity, how did you find this site?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69914 05/17/06 07:27 PM
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Sunil he found it from a neighbor of mine that is a friend and I'm trying to get to weigh in with his thoughts but he says he types to slow. Both are against it and I'm not sure I would agree with all of Jack's facts but most are right on. I knew their opinions before we started but I wanted a healthy debate so I welcome and listen to all comments.

Not sure where I'm at on it except feeling that it is inevitable. My concern is from a standpoint that if your going to be looking at them you might as well have the income. It would also be a possible answer to the future income problem to give future generations financial flexibility to keep it in the family.

Keep the comments coming and I would say Jack came by this site honestly.

Thanks, Buzz

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"""""""""As a real estate appraiser and broker I would consider these things to be an "external obsolescence"""""""""".

Because you are a real estate appraiser, I'm certain that to consider it "external obsolescence", then you would know how important it is to go out an "prove it" beyond just saying "becasue I'm a real estate appraiser and broker and I say so". You must know that the TVA, in my region, will prove that powerlines and substations do not matter whatsoever. So be ready to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I can guarantee you the windmill companies have their own studies proving the contrary.

""""Something similar to a large trash dump land fill project, or a HUGE power transmission line (except on poles TWICE as tall as a water tower) moving into an area. """""


I don't see how an eco friendly windmill would be like a trash dump or a huge power transmission line, but I'm no expert on any of the above.

""""What effect does something like that normally have on property values? """"

The Tennesse Valley Authority will tell you none, and give you their supporting documentation. You'll need to do the same, to achieve any chance of success of resitance.


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#69916 05/17/06 08:03 PM
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Buzz, I guess I just wanted to know if he was a friendly. Welcome, Jack.

This is a nice thread, and the topic is something which we may all have to deal with down the line.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69917 05/18/06 08:00 AM
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I'd like to echo Sunil's welcome....Welcome Jack.

It is unusual, in my experience, for me to run across someone in real estate who is really trying to look at the big picture and not just possible short term monetary gains.

The long term value of that unique property as is should be considered in the equation. It may exceed any other consideration.

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I think the plan serves for @ 180 wind generators over a 2-3 county space. One of the things I found interesting is based upon other projects the utility company has in operation those 180 towers will generate enough electricity to power 500,000 homes. From an alternative energy standpoint that is certainly one way to stick it in the Middle East's ear.

Which brings me to my next point. We all say how we are for alternative energy but then when someone starts putting it in our area we scream like stuck pigs. I'm certainly not preaching here because I'm finding I'm as much of a hippocrite as the next guy. Any thoughts?

Thanks, Buzz

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Buzz,
Here is another line of thought. At some point in time when the wind farms become absolutely necessary to generate enough electricity for society, the right of eminent domain will come into play I'm sure. At that point they will put them where they want regarless of what we think or want. Just a thought.


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Meadowlark, your key word is "may".

Apparently, it hasn't mattered to much in the last 200+ years. It "may" may or may not matter in the futre.

Given the fact that America's population has roughly tripled in size since WWII, and could triple again, in another 50-70 years, you could and probably are very well right. But today is today. We may all have giant windmills everywhere, and horses to for that matter, assuming Cecil and his "Peak Oil" cronies are right(I don't personally know, but don't really believe they are).

I'm certain that I do and will hate to see the urban and suburban sprawl, with carpetbaggers, Californians, northerners bringing in their high population regulations into the South and even Texas, which is a state that loves freedom, more than they have, but I'll be dead or dying by then, so I guess is won't be my problem.

What everyone must remember, that the principle of subdivision and growth is not new. It has been around since the original land grants.


As for the big picture, go ahead and take your local tax maps and look. Every single thing will be divided by a third in 50-70 years. There will be three times the subdivisions.


Robinson, PI (Politically Incorrect, of Course)
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