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#69871 05/16/06 08:47 AM
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I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz

#69872 05/16/06 09:06 AM
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Sounds like it would help the value. Barren land turned into profitable land. Sounds like a win-win.



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#69873 05/16/06 09:09 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
I need some of ya'll to play devil's advocate for me. We have a ranch in North Tx with multiple(9) ponds and 2 lakes. Our land values have increased dramatically over the last 5-7 years. It has been a very good investment with great enjoyment. Here is my dilemma. I am concerned with not having income off of it for future generations so it could possibly stay w/in the family. I have many ideas and that is not what I'm asking about in this thread. Specifically we have been approached by a wind generation company to put wind generators on our land. Approximately 20+ stories tall on some barren land we do not use at the north end of our ranch. Income could be 25,000-60,000/ year to us. Possibly more over the years. We would be able to see them from the house but it would be more than 3/4 of a mile away. In your opinion does this hurt or help the value of the land. Just a note if we do not do it will still happen on someone else's land so they will be quite prominent in our area. Again it takes up no cover and is on land that we never use. Give me your thoughts.

Thanks, Buzz
How many acres overall?

I assume the wind generation company is seeking to LEASE the land from you. If so, for how long and do they have the right to cancel? Do they want a purchase option? If so, under what terms and price increase formula if any?

Are there "step-ups" in the proposed lease tied to a cost-of-living or similar index? What about "their share of taxes and assesments, who pays?

Would they fence off the area that they intend to use?

Is it possible to sub-divide the property giving the leasee the areas they want and keep the more desireable recreational part for yourself?

Do you have to provide access over your property to the leased/fenced areas? If so, can you restrict access to a designated pathway?

It doesn't hurt or help the land's futute value ... only in they eyes of the potential buyer and depends on what their wants/needs are at that time.

#69874 05/16/06 09:17 AM
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The company is only leasing and we can limit them to the area that we deem. Lease is basically for 50 years. We would have all the legalese of them removing, damages, etc. They cover any additional taxes that come about from the base year. The way they compensate for inflation is by paying you a gross % of the electricity they sell from that tower(s). They can fence that area at our discretion. We grant an easement of @ 30 feet wide straight across the flat land. Again this does not get in the way of any cover, lake or any kind of recreational use at all. Keep those comments coming!

#69875 05/16/06 09:26 AM
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Buzz,

Just like we say in ponds...it all depends on your objectives. If your objective is to generate income so that it will be easier to hold onto the land in the face of increasing land values, seems like the wind generation would be a logical thing to do, assuming the details are worked out in a satisfactory manner.

If you are interested only in investment value, i.e. selling the land at max profit in the future, then the answer isn't an easy one, IMO. Some, perhaps many, prospective buyers are looking for a place just like you describe, and would be deterred by the presence of a wind farm. Other buyers might be intrigued by the presence of income generating infrastructure on the property, but my guess is that the buyers with money are much more in the former category than the latter.

Large property which is isolated from development is really getting to be rare. People who seek such property generally have the money that is required to procure it.

#69876 05/16/06 09:31 AM
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Sorry I forgot to add 1000 acres. Ok, Meadowlark quit riding the fence. All things being equal if you loved the land and were looking to buy would it deter you? I'm looking for blatantly honest answers. 50 years is a long time. I know it is just your opinion but give me your gut instinct.

Thanks, Buzz

#69877 05/16/06 09:52 AM
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Buzz, I read about the project last week. It's pretty hard to use a crystal ball and you know taxes will increase no matter what you do with the land. They are paying the increased taxes and you need to negotiate something about previous years. I talked to the Tax people in Montague County about ag taxes, etc. They told me about one landowner who put a 4 wheeler track on his land. I believe they told me that they went back 5 years and recalculated his taxes as if it had been commercial during those preceeding years.

I have seen a bunch of them by Lubbock. Have you considered going there and having talks with the land owners to get their perspective?

I would ask about any restrictive covenants that they will put on you. I expect you could also negotiate free elec. for the ranch.

I expect it might deter me somewhat if I were buying. However, you say your goal is to find a way to generate income to keep it in the family.

BTW, I recall several years ago that you were having to work your tail off to catch enough bass to properly manage your lakes. How has that been going?

#69878 05/16/06 09:59 AM
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If you wouldn't mind looking at them, I would do it.

#69879 05/16/06 10:05 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Ok, Meadowlark quit riding the fence. All things being equal if you loved the land and were looking to buy would it deter you? I'm looking for blatantly honest answers.
Ok Buzz...the cold hard answer from me:

Yes it would deter me. I looked long and hard for isolation from development in the land I purchased. I looked for natural beauty. I looked for something I would never relinquish until death. I looked for something which would represent life in this country long before wind farms were even contemplated in science fiction books.

But I march to a different drummer than many and that is why I tried to give you a more general response. For me, the wind farm would be an automatic exclusion of that property from purchase prospects.

#69880 05/16/06 10:12 AM
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Dave, I heard about the 4 wheeler track too. In our area it was a bicycle track that got there ag exemption taken away. We switched ours from ag to wildlife a couple of years ago. We have asked for a clarification that our wildlife exemption would not change from the tax people. They are checking into it.

We were going to check out the ones close to Abilene. At the dog & pony show they had for the area they had one rancher from down there come and talk to us. He was very positive about them on having no effect on him at all while getting income.

We asked about the free electricity and that is not a possibility at this point.

My concern is as this ranch becomes more and more valuable with time the income has to be there for family to not be tempted to make a quick buck. It will inevitably happen that it will leave the family but I'm just trying to give future generations some flexibility.

On the fishing front, I would say we have been semi successful. We catch good fish from both lakes but are fixing to build a 3rd and it really becomes work when trying to keep it on the right track. My problem is my wife somehow got herself pregnant at the age of 41 and now it is getting harder and harder to do my "fishing" job.

#69881 05/16/06 10:18 AM
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Thanks Meadowlark. I don't disagree with you. I like to go in lock the gate and know no one can come in unless I let them. Thanks for the answer that's what I'm looking for. I've always told my wife that I don't really like most people and I was very lucky to find her. How she likes me I don't know.

#69882 05/16/06 10:33 AM
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Buzz:

1) Congratulations \:\) . Perhaps if you'd spent more time fishing you could continue to spend more time fishing :rolleyes: .

2) The closest to this situation that I have any experience with is cell phone towers. Twice we have had "discussions" with companies looking to put in towers in our locale, both times thet went elsewhere for what I believe to be technical reasons. One clause which is common to cell tower leases (IIRC) is that all construction added for the tower is removed at the end of the lease at the tower company's expense. That seems like something you might want to have in a windfarm lease also.

3) FWIW, if it were already my land and I wanted to stay on it as much as I would like to stay where I am now, I would put in the windfarm and use the income to hang on for as many years and generations as possible. If I was looking for land to acquire, it would deter me unless the windfarm income would be enough to let me swing the deal for your 1000 acres which I couldn't get otherwise. So perhaps you have to decide to fish or cut bait.

Good luck with everything. We need more windfarms.


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#69883 05/16/06 10:43 AM
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Theo if you sell the land the windfarm income would go with it from our perspective. That is one of the things I'm struggling with is the real need this country has for alternative energy but no one wants it in their backyard. That is very easy for me to say considering I have someone that wants to pay me for it but this country has got to get away from the Middle East oil. I have invited my neighbor into the discussion so he will give the other side of the argument hopefully. Richard?

Thanks, Buzz

#69884 05/16/06 10:44 AM
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Buzz,

A very good friend of mine owns a crane repair business in California, where I'm from. He had the contract to maintain the cranes used to maintain the windfarm in the Livermore hills of California. At one time, one of the bigger wind farms around.

I don't know anything about the owners of the land or how it affected them, just what he told me about it.

The windmills require huge amounts of maintenance. They had a crew working full time greasing and repairing them by drivng from one to the other with a guy up in the bucket. They never lowered it and the strain and damage on the boom kept my buddy busy.

According to him, the windmills never generated a proffit because of all the expenses in maintaining them. They were built for tax credits and government grants and have changed ownership several times.

Now they mostly sit abandonded and have even started to fall down from neglect!!!

My concern is two fold. First, they ruin the value of your land. If I could afford your land, I would not buy it because of the windmills. I have bought as much as 300 acres before and have walked away from a deal on 400 acres because of visually ugly features on the land along with the easments associated with the land. I buy land on ocassion as an investment and expect to sell it at a profit, so that would be a huge red flag for me.

The other issue would be as a landowner. How much impact would constant maintenance affect your pasture? Roads will have to be built through the area to service each windmill. How sure are you that they will make a profit and you will actualy get something in return?

They could be going in as a government feel good tax thing like in California and never actually make a profit. If that happens, you won't see a dime, but the company who puts them in gets all sorts of tax credits for spending the money to put them there.

If it doesn't work our, or they go bankrupt, how do you get rid of them?

In my opinion, and it's just that, I'd find another way to make some money off the land that you have more control over. Let the other guy take the gamble. If it in fact turns out to be a money makeing operation, they will want to put more in and you'll still have the land.

Good luck,
Eddie


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#69885 05/16/06 10:53 AM
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Eddie thanks for the info. That has been one of the comments that has been raised is the maintenance. The company says there is very little maintenance and so does the rancher in Abilene, although his are fairly new. The company doing it has others all over the country and has a record of never selling any of their towers to this point.

You have a guaranteed minimum per tower per year. Of course a guarantee is only as good as the guarantor. This is a Fortune 500 company doing it publicly traded with a very strong balance sheet.

That would be one of the contract write ins is once they are out of use for a year they would have to restore the land to original pasture land.

Thank you for your opinion.

#69886 05/16/06 11:22 AM
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Buzz, one consideration may be to consider the revenue income potential relative to your own net worth or income, and the future family's prospects of income.

Also a question, do you have Natural Gas or Oil Wells on your property now?

I'm guessing the company is TXU or Reliant?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69887 05/16/06 11:23 AM
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Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?

#69888 05/16/06 11:33 AM
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Sunil we will have wells on our property pretty soon but we do not own the mineral rights so that is a bummer.

My consideration on my net worth is not a consideration but I do think future generations will have a much harder go of it in this country.
I'm a little bit negative on our future in this country for future generations. That is the concern for the income for future family members.

Sunil I can't say who it is but there state is known for having trouble with elections. I say no more.

Keep the comments coming. I'm learning.

Thanks, Buzz

#69889 05/16/06 11:59 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Tatom:
Meadowlark & Theo would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?
No, I don't think so...perhaps if it were highly visible and/or generated a lot of traffic/visitors then it might be somewhat of a negative, but otherwise I would think not.

#69890 05/16/06 12:07 PM
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Buzz, you seem to be right on considering the look/feel of these windmills even if they are on adjacent properties. If that was the case, you'd still have the sight of them without any income.

Is the Utility Company talking to your neighbors also?

And, is this something where if you are going forward with this, that the neighbors can vote it down? Or do they have to approve?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#69891 05/16/06 12:21 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Sunil:
And, is this something where if you are going forward with this, that the neighbors can vote it down? Or do they have to approve?
Sunil,


This is Texas we are talking about, my friend \:\) ...individual freedom still reigns supreme. No state income tax and I can build a pond and stock it as I please. Common courtesy is expected and practiced by good neighbors. In Houston, a world class city, we do not have zoning laws.

Texas...I wasn't born here, but got here as fast as I could! \:\)

#69892 05/16/06 12:22 PM
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Hey Buzz...
since you're fishin' for opinions, I will share my posture wrt
 Quote:
would a wind farm in the area but not on the land you were considering purchasing be a turnoff to buy?
I spent alot of time searching for the right pc of small acreage here in the midwest. My goals were secluded, quiet, and pastoral. Active RR trax and hi tension wires/towers squashed any appeal. I occassionally found gorgeous wooded properties at fair prices (hard to believe in this area), only to find an eyesore that likely explained why it hadn't already been snapped up. I remember the absolutely perfect, pond-able 40 ac that got nix'd because of the radio tower less than 1/4 mile away. These were MY parameters, tho. Somebody must care less about these kinda things because they all eventually sell. Like mentioned in previous posts, depends on what your lookin' for.

#69893 05/16/06 12:29 PM
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The wind company is saying it is going to happen whether it is on your land or your neighbors. A bit of a strong hand tactic although at least they are being upfront about it.

The neighbor in front of us has barren land and likes $$$ so we feel very certain that if we don't he will and we will still be staring at them with no compensation. The wind farm is going to be put in it is just where will it be located.

With it being over 20 stories tall it will be seen for miles. One guy says over 30 miles although I don't think that would be right.

The neighbors are a consideration although not from a legal standpoint.

Our big thing is our opinion that our neighbor will put them in plain sight of our house on his land with no compensation to us.

#69894 05/16/06 12:34 PM
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Brettski that is one of the attractions to the utility company is the power lines that go through a very corner of our property. Easy tie in to power grid and close proximity to a major market(Dallas). Thanks for your opinion.

#69895 05/16/06 12:46 PM
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 Quote:
The wind company is saying it is going to happen whether it is on your land or your neighbors...... The neighbor in front of us has barren land and likes $$$ so we feel very certain that if we don't he will and we will still be staring at them with no compensation
Jeesh, Buzz...what a lousy conundrum. Between this and Gator's snap-happy pond hobos, I'm gonna start to find it difficult to become angry when the neighbor's dog dumps in my yard.
So, what if they broke ground across the street tomorrow for 20 wind monsters on the Smith's property. What would you do?

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