Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Three Sore Backs on Bremer Pond

Structure Weekend:

This weekend my bother, son-in-law and myself, created three sore backs and placed 100 Christmas trees, 50 Concrete Blocks, 19 landscape timbers, and 24 computer enclosures.

This is the first structure we have placed in our pond. It is a good start though there is a lot left to do in the future.

I believe it could be said that a pond owner’s work is never done!

I have included some photos - Dwight

Dwight,
Can you elaborate a litte on the construction specifics of the landscape timber structures? They look like 4"x6"x8'? How are they fastened?
Thx.

The timbers are 4"x5" and 8 feet long, though there are a couple of short ones toward the top of each X structure.

They are held together by a 3/4" threaded Stainless steel rod. We bored 7/8” holes through each timber and the bottom timber has a plate with a nut welded on. There are also 8- 5/16” holes drilled through the bottom timbers for attaching weight to hold the X to the bottom. The bottom plate makes for easier assembly.

We bored a hole in the ice, centered the bottom timber up over the hole and the turned the threaded rod into the bottom timber. At that point we stacked the rest of the timbers on the rod and lined everything up before tightening. Then we put a double nut on the top end of the rod and tightened her down. It is a two man minimum, job

Thanks for your interest! - Dwight

Hi Dwight, Looks like your off to a great start, I was looking at your additional pics on your homepage,Am curious on the aeration pic and if you are aerating the entire pond or just the designated area shown in the pics.Ted

Ted,

I have been told by knowledgesble persons that a gravel pit type poud rarely needs areation.

I am aereating that area only because I want to keep an area open for wildlife watering and to keep my dock free of ice. The idea of looking out the window and seeing open water during our cold Minnesota winters also appeals to me.

Dwight

Aeration and gravel pit ponds. True - aeration is not necessary to grow fish in a deep pond. It all depends on the goals for the pond.

Firstly before you believe anyone regarding weather a pond needs aerated or not, oxygen tests should be made during the mid-summer July-August to determine if complete loss of dissolved oxygen (DO) occurs. Many knowledgable people are not really knowledgable. Just becaue they are supposed to be knowledgable does not make them always right about all pond advice. It all depends.

It is truly the exceptional pond where complete oxygen loss does not occur in the deep zone of ponds during mid-summer. Only about two pond situations readily come to mind where a pond will not lose all DO in the deep zone. Very clear water and or rapid water exchange due to infow of deep, underground, feeder springs. Another exception would be a pond with only shallow water (max 7-8ft deep) with high wind exposure; however I do not consider a 8ft pond to have a true deep zone. If a pond does not have at least one of these characters then DO loss in summer is very predictable.

Although if one does not care if the deep water and pond bottom loses all the oxygen and the deep sediments become "lifeless" or dead during mid summer, then YES the pond never needs to be aerated. It always depends. Big fish can be raised in ponds that are not aerated. It is done all the time. The entire fish community including the biggest fish manage to live and grow in the upper oxygenated zone of deep ponds during the periods when oxygen is absent from the deep water. The main disadvantage to not aerating the stratified pond with big fish is the likehood of summer turnover and a partial of total fish kill. Biggest fish usually die first when a summer fish kill occurs.

Bill Cody,

A lot of good information there, Bill!

We have had the DO checked mid-August and after a long winter ice cover in mid-February. In both cases, the DO was very adequate.

The deepest area in the pond is 15 feet and the water is clear to medium-stained year-around.

We have a northwest to southeast ground water flow that is fairly significant as it keeps open water around the north and west shoreline of the pond. Currently we have 17” of ice elsewhere and those areas still remain open.

I plan to check DO periodically, but for know, it appears that it won’t be a problem unless something else changes.

It pays to be flexible in most things and I think that may be true of pond management as well.

Thanks - Dwight

Dwight, Your relatively clear water combined with the moderate water flow and your location (northern) manage to maintain good oxygen concentrations throughout the water column. New ponds with higher water visibilities and low overall fertility inputs usually behave similar to your pond. When the water clarity significantly decreases then watch for declining oxygen concentrations in the deeper waters. Otherwise DO concentrations should stay at good levels.

What fish have you used to stock the pond?

Bill,

I haven’t stocked a single fish!

There are indigenous fish (NP, LMB, SMB, BG, YP, BH, etc.) because the pond was connected to an adjacent river during the summer for drainage purposes (three-four months each year) for the ten years it took to mine the gravel. The final closing to the river occurred in November of 2005.

I have allowed all reasonable persons to fish the pond, with the requirement that they don’t release any undesirable fish back into the pond. An 18lb Northern Pike was the largest undesirable last summer. I have a hard time calling that undesirable, but it really doesn’t fit the “plan”.

I considered rotenone to clear out everything and start over, but that is not legal here.

For stocking, any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks - Dwight

With fish in the pond as large as 5 lb plus pike, I'm not sure how successful supplimental stocking would be especially if you do not have any weed beds established yet. Weed beds will act to provide some cover for newly stocked fish; unless your wallet is deep. Norm Kopecky commonly stocks adult fish into an existing fishery, maybe he will respond with some hints. Without weed beds the small fish and even some slender medium sized fish are "sitting ducks" for larger predators such as big bass and large pike. The amount of structure/cover that was on your above photos will not be enough to protect small fish. The cover that you put in this winter will serve as fish attractors and places for anglers to fish.

As I see it, your current best plan is to try an manage the fishery based on natural reproduction. Maybe others can provide some suggestions. Supplimental stockings of adult bluegills may help enhance the forage fish base. If gizzard shad occur in the adjacent stream you also probably have them plus numerous other minnows and shiners. Those that can reproduce in the pond will continue and self perpetuate. Those that don't reproduce will soon be eliminated. I am suprised that MDNR will not allow private waters to be rotenoned even with a DNR permit. Are you sure that rotenone is not a possibility or is it that you just cannot buy it as a nonlicensed applicator. I am glad I do not live in MN.

There are under-water weeds around the perimeter of the pond that extend out to a depth of 18”-24” or so during the summer. I wouldn’t call these “weed beds”, but they are teaming with underwater activity.

There is also a large shallow area (under 6 feet) at the south end of the pond that I planned to be an emergent weed area. Any suggestions on an emergent weed to establish would be appreciated.

Perhaps, Dave Willis and Norm Kopecky will chime in with their thoughts, since we are northern pond people!

I am thinking that the “three sore backs” part of the title scared off a lot off comment. Sorry for the stress!

Dwight

Dwight -- this "string" brought up several thoughts in my mind.

First, very nice job on the structure!! I like the long, linear shape on your trees. That will be great for fishing. That 3-d sructures are great as well -- nice to have some height!

I was also very pleased to read your description of the water movement and dissolved oxygen. Just giving advice or opinions long distance is often a dangerous business. It's obvious now that you're in a good area of ground water flow, and that should really keep your water quality problems to a minimum. You'll actually have a little less fertility than "hill ponds," but that's often a GOOD thing in the north country.

I'm not sure that you really are missing any fish species. Norm may chime in, and he'll gently disagree, as he really likes diversity! However, if you want a pond sustained by natural reproduction of your fishes, then you've got a good complement of species. Do you have any common carp or buffalofish that came in from the stream connection? As long as you keep up the largemouth bass density, which should happen naturally given your description of your pond, then the bullheads won't be a problem. The bass will crop off most of the small ones, and all you should see is a few big ones. I would keep cropping the northern pike, as they just can do too much damage as they grow. They can really take some big fish as prey items. While I like northerns in general, and like to fish for them, I think it would be best to keep their numbers very low in your pond.

As for plants, I'm firmly convinced that the submergent plants are the key to good ponds in the north country. That's where the small panfish and small bass can hide and feed. I honestly don't think that the emergents add very much value. You could establish cattails in your shallow area, and as I assume your pond is relatively steep-sided, they probably would not cause big problems. However, I'd rather see the submergent plants growing in your shallow area, and just skip the cattails. Let's see if anyone else comments on that thought.

Dave :

Here are links to several of the pondweed family ( Potamogeton ). We have the first and I think Bill C. purchased one type to add to his pond. Don't know how well they do in cold water. I assume ok as some grow in Ill. and Ohio. In our pond they are great fish nursery and a frustration to large predators. They can't get through the stuff to hunt effectively. It is however not real easy to keep it only where you want it as it spreads well to shallow water to depths to about 4 ft.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/variable-leaf_pondweed.htm#description

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/american_pondweed.htm

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/illinois_pondweed.htm

What do you think about these and are others better ? I would skip the cattails as over time they are silt magnets and produce their own land , as in fill in your pond with more land followed by more cattails.

Basic Pond Weed and Curly Leaf Pond Weed (Potamogeton) do grow in PA, in my pond.

It's only there during the spring & summer months, and early fall if it's does not get too cold

I don't think I would necessarily want to introduce it though. Over the last two seasons, it got way out of control in my pond. I have no clue as to why, especially considering that it was not a problem for the (4) years prior.

I had to get some Grass Carp to take care of it.

Would it be appropriate for me to just post the "roll eyes" emoticon whenever the issue of aquatic weeds come up? :rolleyes:

When it comes to aquatic weeds too much can be bad thing. When the multiple types of weeds at our pond get really thick the body condition of our LMB tends to decline rather quickly.

SHORTY

Over the past two summers, my weed problem was so bad that I couldn't even use a trolling motor in about 75% of my pond.

Sunil - I can go through most of our pond with my 76 lb thrust trolling motor but I try to avoid doing it, the trolling motor just makes cuttings of new milfoil and coontail clones so they can go root themesleves elsewhere. It defeats the purpose of spending money on treating the weeds.

A couple of years ago I did break the internal mounting brackets that turn my trolling motor when I had a 300 lb ball of weeds wrapped around the shaft.

My grass carp went in in late Mid July '06, and they really took care of things.

Steve, are you using any GC?

Sunil - there are 60-70 GC in the pond right now, all under 4 years old and they are not making any noticable difference in the abundance of weeds.

Shorty

Sunil :

Curly leaf PW is an invasive ( non-native) from Europe and is not one I brought up. Its use is discouraged.

http://aquaplant.tamu.edu/database/submerged_plants/curly-leafed_pondweed.htm

Shorty you can use :rolleyes: anytime you want. You are right to many weeds are a big problem !!!

ewest, it is possible that my pond suffered from an introduction of Curly Leaf PW in each of the last two years, but not the four years prior to that.

I may have been (or still am) confusing the Curly Leaf with the regular old Pond Weed, as I only had it identified last year.

Sunil :

For many years we had no weed problem in these ponds. Then one day vr.leaf pondweed showed up and started spreading in one pond only. None in second pond and no other weed problems. My guess is that a visiting duck or goose (we have none to 1 or 2 on occasion) left us a present as they like the seeds and spread them around. I would like to keep some pondweed in certain areas but keep it out of other areas -- that is a problem.

Dave – It has since gone on to become a real thread!

My theory on the trees was to put them in a line that goes through multiple depth levels. That way the fish can relate to the threes at whatever depth they prefer. Only time will tell how that actually works out.

Isn’t Norm the one with the Walleye Pond?

There are some common carp. I don’t think it is possible to keep them out of any body of water, is it? I rarely see them so I am hoping there aren’t too many.

As far as the Northern are concerned, we’ll just has to keep fishing for them and limit their numbers. I always like a good excuse to go fishing, anyway!

I see that ewest put some links in his post containing information about pond weeds. I will be checking them out.

If anyone has specific experience with weeds in a northern pond, it would be interesting to hear about it. I don’t want to plant something and then have the whole pond become a water soaked rat’s nest.

Dwight

Dwight --

Norm Kopecky has a multiple, multiple species pond to the southwest of Sioux Falls. He does a lot of feeding, and a lot of fish purchase and transfer to get his diversity. He has a wonderful set-up and has group after group of disadvantaged kids, adults, etc., fishing his pond. He has a covered bridge over part of the pond, and people can fish from there. In fact, vans can drive right to the edge of the bridge, and safely unload wheelchairs, etc. Norm uses circle hooks on all his rods, so the catching is easy, and the releases are successful as well.

I helped a landowner out near Gettysburg plan structure for his pond a couple of years back. We did just what you did -- ran a line of trees from shallow to deep water. It's a good plan.

It's pretty common for the carp not to successfully reproduce and survive in a sand/gravel pit type of pond. A few adults won't cause you problems, although at higher densities they will actually keep down the submergent plant growth through their rooting activities. As you can tell from Steve's post above, that could either be good or bad, depending on whether you have too much or too little vegetation. It's always something.

I wonder if your native vegetation has already had plenty of opportunity to establish, and you may already have the appropriate submergent plants?

Nice that I could use my 500th post on a northern pond!!

That is indeed fitting, Dr. Dave.

OTOH, how many of those 500 posts did you make about chinquapin or sac-a-laut?

Regardless of what the exact geographical center of your posts as been, I feel a great number of them have been gems.