Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Amount of fish per acre

I have a 1.25 acre pond. I stocked per fish seller,400 cc, 100 black crappie, 500 hyb bluegilland 22 pounds of fatheads . This was before finding this site and subscribing to mag. My question is do I have room to add redear and hsb, say 100 of each. I started feeding a few weeks ago and do not have aireation. I don't want to push the limits. I want to catch cc and crappie. The pond is 7 feet deep right now with no rain in along time, steep sides.
Trenton

TG4,

I tried to answer your question but found I could not because of the stocking parameters involved. Instead, I'll throw out a "discussion" for what ever you think its worth....just thoughts, not answers.

Discussion: My opinion is that the RES could be added without problems, on the order of 50 or so, higher if you want to really push it, but no higher than 100.

The HSB is a totally different question. Presumably you want them to help control the crappie, which with 100 stocked in your size pond, may become overpopulated quickly. The problem comes in with 400 CC. The CC's won't do much to control the crappie, in my opinion, especially if you artificially feed. They will just grow on the feed and if some are not removed, you may have a biomass problem without aeration. The HSB also like artificial feed.

Seven feet deep with 400 CC's and no aeration and black crappie... If it were me, and its not of course, I would remove as many of the CC's as possible and get a real predator in there before the crappie spawn next spring. If you want HSB as your predator, you must understand that they will compete with the CC's for artificial feed and they also prefer deep open water. I think I would choose HSB only if the CC's are to be removed. You might have better luck with LMB as your predator and letting the LMB stunt and populate as long as they will control the crappie.

In any event, I think you have a lot of fishing ahead of you...first to remove CC's as they grow to keep your overall biomass at manageable levels, and also to keep the crappie somewhat in check. You wanted CC's and crappie but to have a viable balanced pond, you're going to have to do a lot of ongoing management, in my opinion.

TG4 :

Here is a recent post to start with :

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000274

I have followed your prior post on same question and agree with Theo -- you can add RE 100 at 2in. and HSB. But like Theo I am not a HSB expert. 100 HSB at 2-4in. should be ok. I assume the pond is now 1.25 acres and 7 ft deep. If not then post size of pond at current time. If this is correct you have room in your pond now. The thing to remember is as your fish grow you are using up more and more of your carrying capicity and you may have to remove fish. Carrying capicity is stated in lbs. of fish per acre not number of fish per acre. Estimate the lbs of fish in your pond and use that to compare rates. Also keep in mind that fish will reproduce and add poundage over time. I think you need an additional predator to control the crappie and HBG offspring and the HSB is one way. As these fish all grow in your pond you will quickly reach its capicity as described. To many CC in my opinion . ewest

Nice coverage by ML and ewest. I was trying to figure out how to express much the same thought.

I meant to put pounds in the original question. I was afraid I already had too many fish. Is their a rule of thumb for how many lbs per acre? The pond is currently 1.25 acre and 7 feet deep-think of a turkey roasting pan. The sides may not be quite that steep but close. The cc are not eating size yet but if I need to I can catch and get rid of some. My original hopes were to catch about 20-30lbs of crappie and 30-40 lbs of cc each fall and spring. I sure wish I had found this site before stocking. I am not a bass person at all, but will put in whatever will help me the most.
Trenton

Also, it may not matter but if we can get some good rain the pond will be close to 1.5 acre and 13 feet deep.

TG4,

The rule of thumb I use is 100 pounds of predator fish per acre. The question I don't know how to answer is how CC's or even crappie, count if at all in that rule of thumb. My experience is with LMB and HSB.

One other thought...if the CC's are primarily for eating, if removed and replaced by HSB you could get much better predatory action on the crappie, simply excellent sport fishing (far superior to CC), great eating fish, and no worries about overpopulating. I am just leary about stocking them with the 400 CC's you already have. If you are set on having CC's in your pond, then I think I would not add HSB...but having said that, I would much prefer HSB to CC's in all respects for your pond.

TG4 :

One of your posts indicates you are in central Texas. Below is a link to the Texas pond mgt. material. It says a well managed farm pond should have between 300-500 lbs of fish per acre. If you use 400 then ML has given you the answer for predators ( 25 % of total fish) or 100 lbs per acre.

http://www.sdafs.org/tcafs/manuals/pond/tcafs_pond_manual_2005.pdf

Most materials count crappie and CC as predators in there stocking guidlines. But there are differences in predator efficiency and CC and crappie are not as efficient as LMB or HSB.

My guess based on your posts is that you have the following : 150 lbs of CC , 125 lbs of HBG , 32 lbs of crappie , and 25 lbs of fatheads for a total of 332 lbs of fish in 1.25 acres. THIS IS A GUESS based on the limited info in the 2 posts. As you can see you have over 100 lbs of predators but they are not the most efficient ones. When did you stock these fish and at what size ? What do you estimate the avg. size of each type of fish? ewest

It was stocked in Feburary of this year. At the time the crappie and bg were about 2-3 inches the cc were about 4-5 inches. I recently caught a cc, it was 8-9 inches guesing. I did not measure it. I have no idea what the survival rate is. I can take out however many cc I need to now, but would prefer to wait until spring when I hope they will be big enough to eat.

I think you may have to play it by ear and figure a lot of it out as you go, Trenton (as do we all).

Some talking points:

1. Figure on going ahead and putting in some RES. I don't think 100 are pushing it; that still leaves you what I would consider light on forage base. But then the Crappie count partially as forage base as well as partially as predators. See what all the inputs you get for RES stocking level are and pick a number you feel comfortable with.

2. I think most of us feel you should have more effective predators ready when the Crappie spawn. Could your Crappie spawn next Spring? What is the chance of them doing so? These may be the most important questions, defining if you have a year and a half to prepare for them with an adequate predator supply or if it's right around the corner.

3. Even a year and a half is not that long for a significant reduction of 400 CC. If you continue to feed them, I think they will easily reach a decent eating size next year (the biggest at say pound and a half). But that puts the CC biomass very high - 500lbs? - which leaves you looking for useful things to do with excess CC (clean & freeze for storage, find someone who wants live or cleaned CC, ??).

4. Hopefully one of the Crappie-lovers will be able to give a better perspective on how they will fit into this equation (age & size at spawning, how predatory they are, and info no one has even thought of yet).

I'm afraid that this is not very much help. You may be the first here to try to manage CC and Crappie together.

TG4 :

Have you checked with your fish source to see what is available in sizes of HSB and RE? If you can get 6-8 in. HSB and 3-5 in RE that is what I would use. Put in 50 of this size HSB and 75 RE. This should only add about 50 lbs. at most of new fish and thus you would be at about 306 lbs per acre plus any growth between now and spring. Be ready to start taking out CC and crappie in the spring to reduce your predator load. I would take out 100 CC between March and August and 50 adult crappie and some HBG if they are 6in.. I would take them out as soon as possible in the spring. Don't wait till June to start. If the pond stays low I would take out more than that. Watch the pond closely and report what you see. In the mean time read as much on this forum as you can about these issues and the Texas pond mgt. info above. I would not try to raise all those fish through next summer as it would be a risk that the pond can't support them all as they get bigger. Good luck with your pond and keep us posted on what you decide to do. ewest

You can figure on the fish getting hook shy as you start heavy predation on them. After hitting my CC, it took live bait to get them. Ewest is right. You will have to get agressive.

I would, ASAP, get some bluegills in there. The fatheads won't last long. You need a continuing source of protien that nothing else provides.

I will be calling around Tuesday on fish. I wanted to get advice from here first. I know the bg have spawned, I saw some 1 1/2 to 2 inch ones in my wifes turtle trap a couple of weeks ago. I have been told crappie won't spawn until they are 3 years old, and that they were one yr old when bought. However I won't belive anything that fishery tells me again. How much meat do you get from a 1-1 1/2 lb cc? I won't have any problem getting rid of the meat. Catching them might be hard I don't know.

If the BG have spawned, then they weren't hybrids.

I'm not sure crappie have to be 3 years old to spawn. I understand that black crappie are less prolific than white crappie. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can fill in here.

BTW, you have joined the club. Most of us have screwed up when stocking our first pond.

I would say a pound and a half CC has enough meat for dinner for 2, maybe just 1 if you want to fill up on catfish.

Here is info on Black crappie. Note fecundity up to 188000 per yr. per female-- very high and adult by age 2. HBG will spawn but offspring are generally belived to be 95 % male and so should the stockers ,so should have small # of offspring. My memory is that HBG fecundity is much lower than for BG. Are you sure you have HBG it makes a big difference in how to approach your situation. ewest

Black Crappie, Pomoxis nigromaculatus
Physical Description:
· Very compressed body
· Upturned nose and mouth
· Rounded pectoral fin
· Slightly notched tail fin
· Anal and dorsal fins nearly the same length
· Large eye
· Speckled body
· Dorsal, anal, and tail fins black with white spots
· Length of dorsal fin base equal to distance from first dorsal spine to eye
· Head and side of body silver with dark marks

Similar species:
· White crappie (Pomoxis annularis)

Mean body size:
· Adults are 100-400 mm total length

Habitat:
· Swamps, ponds, lakes, reservoirs, and slack water in rivers
· Found in vegetation and structure

Distribution in VA:
· James drainage
· Introduced to all other drainages in Virginia

Food Habits:
· Insects, fish, and crustaceans

Reproductive Habits:
· Mature by age 2
· Spawning occurs around April at 15-20°C
· Nests dug out around vegetation close to other nests
· Fecundity is 11,000-188,000 eggs per female

Population Status, Economic, or Ecological Importance:
· One of the most popular pan fishes in Virginia

References:

Jenkins, R.E and N.M. Burkhead. 1993. Freshwater Fishes of Virginia. American Fisheries Society, Bethesda, Maryland.

If you are seeking more information for the above species click on the VAFWIS logo (The Virginia

They told me they were hbg, I saw them but I don't know how to tell what kind they were. I was not going to mention them by name but maybe somone has had experiance with them, good or bad. I got my fish from Dunns fish farm, they delived to my pond. About how long are 1 lb cc?

By the book, 14" - 15"

NRAC has a CC weight vs. length table at this URL (if I got it right, I can't open .pdf URLs at work to check).

Here is what I found out today. I called Arms Bait co. & fish farm as they are on the way to my pond. They have 7 inch hsb and 1-4 inch redear. After asking further he said 7 inch hsb and 1-4 inch redear, he went on a speach about how hard it is to raise redear, but never elaborated on size. I may have to get redear from Overtons but they are way out of the way(several hundred miles out of the way
). I only want redear to prevent parasite problems unlesss I need them for some other reason. Would adding 75 redear of this size and 50 hsb at 7 inches be reasonale. I plan to take 100-150 cc out this spring. Am I being realistic? I have started out wrong and don't want to make it worse. I have a feeling in a few yrs I may have to posion and start over. I would like to at least get some cc out of it first.

If you pay very close attention to Harrell Arms, you shouldn't have to poison and start over. He is one of the giants in the pond business. I've met him at a seminar, asked for his advice, and found him to be a real pro whose knowledge is exceeded only by his sense of humor. I doubt that he remembers me but I remember him. About 15 or 20 years ago,on the advice of a friend, I called him and spent an hour on the phone picking his brain. He recognized that I didn't know the questions to ask and gave me some real lessons.

In the front of Lusks book, "Raising Trophy Bass" Bob has some acknowledgements. On Harrell Arms he says:
Harrell Arms: Fish farmer, consultant, fish guru, for helping to mold and mentor an energetic and often misguided fisheries consultant through travels around client lakes and ponds.

Bob doesn't give acknowledgements lightly and I think you are fortunate to have found him. Tell him your full situation and ask for his advice. Take notes.

BTW, ask for a copy of his pamphlet called "Everything I know about how to catch fish". You'll understand his sense of humor.

I think that plan will make things better, definitely not worse.

Like DD said, lots of us screwed up our first stocking. I wish I had done mine a little differently.

I think your situation can probably be managed, rather than having to renovate (one has to decide sometimes if renovating would be easier; I think you are a long way from that decision). In the worst case, I think you could get all (well, all you can catch) of your CC out for eating.

TG4,

I found it very interesting what Harrell Arms said about red ear. I totally agree with him. I stocked several hundred in a larger pond and they basically disappeared whereas the CNBG prospered.

My original recommendation to you was to stock 50 red ear, up to 100 if desired and add HSB only if you remove CC's. If you remove 100 to 150 CC's, then 75 HSB should be just fine. However, as time goes forward, I would continue to remove all CC's that get to two pounds and above.

TG4 :

I think you should take the advice given above and add HSB and RE as per your comments above . If the RE are avg. 2 in. add 100 if 3in. add 75. I don't think this will hurt your pond but will help a lot over time provided you start taking out CC as discussed. If you can get advice from Harrell Arms that would be great. RE are hard for hatcheries to grow out as they don't respond to art. feeding well. Let us know what he says Good Luck and keep us posted on what happens. ewest

Are 2 inch res to small? My concern is that they would just be food for the other fish. If they are okay that would make things a lot easier for me.

TG4 :

Some may well be eaten . One method used in stocking is to add small fish several times over a time frame like 2 years with the idea that many may be eaten but some will survive. You are in that case judging the % that will survive. In a pond with adult LMB the % surviving is very low 5-10 %. Because you have no LMB and very few adult predators the % should be much better. Ask Mr. Arms about it and get his advice. I think if you told him already about your situation he has factored that in and thinks it will work. If you want add 200 2in. RE on the assumption half will be eaten -- that would be a good guess and would not change the plan much. I think enough of the 2 in. would survive to make the effort worth trying. ewest