Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Bluegill experiment...

Hello All. I've been reading the site for a while now and have learned a ton from all of you so let me start by saying thanks.

I've been communicating with Todd Overton and we are planning a little experiment but he suggested I post the details on this forum and see what everyone else thinks. First, a little background...

I just completed construction on a new pond in Rusk, Texas (East Texas) about 6 weeks ago. When full, it will be about 3.5 - 4 acres. Water depth at the deepest point will be around 25 feet.

I had initially planned for this to be a LMB-only pond but based on the many posts I've read on this site regarding HSB, I've decided to stock a mixture of LMB and HSB.

My stocking plan was Fathead minnows this fall, Bluegill/Redear in early spring, LMB and HSB in late spring/early summer. Possibly Tilapia the following year.

Todd suggested an experiment regarding a different stocking regime for bluegill that should in theory promote more baitfish of the perfect size for predators at exactly the right time.

Goes as follows. Instead of stocking high numbers (800/acre) of bluegill in early spring, we will stock as if this were a fish farm. At most 80 bluegill per acre in the fall. This plan should produce up to 100,000 1" or less bluegill per acre by early summer when the predators are stocked. Then, when we stock predators, we'll stock bluegill at 800 per acre and redear at 200/acre to secure future forage.

The reason for this: high numbers of bluegill in early spring eat large numbers of their own fry. Also the initial stocking of bluegill should reach 5" by bass stocking time and be a serious competitor for small bass. Todd believes this plan is more efficient, maximizing baitfish production like a fish farm would.

Todd will be out of town for the next week but hopefully, when he returns he can add to the details I have posted and correct anything I've got wrong. He said he's never promoted this forage plan before so he was interested in all of your thoughts.

Have any of you tried something like this before?

Any Advice? Thanks.

The best advice is keep listening to Todd. He's extremely knowledgable and he's not afraid of discussion. The Pond Boss group can be a tough crown and his willingness to have you bring the plan here shows his confidence, but also his willingness to learn and modify.

Everything you're trying to do seems logical. You have a certain amount of biomass that is immediately available in the form of phytoplankton and zooplankton. The idea is to move that biomass to your predator fish as efficiently and quickly as possible. Biomass can get tied up in intermediate sized mid-level predators like bluegill if the high-end predators don't have the means to utilize them. Logically if the bass have appropriately sized forage early on this first generation will form the backbone of your quality fishing for years to come.

Be sure to listen just as closely to his harvest recommendations over the next few years. I suspect that he will want to limit the number of fish entering the 15 inch range so as to allow a nice population of LMB to reach trophy size.

Definitely keep us informed!!

Sounds like it would work. Check water quality prior to stocking and monitor it. Without phyto and zoo planktons, the whole idea is blown. I've often thought that maybe the plankton might be kicked into high gear when a large number of stocker fish are put in and their manure assits the whole chain.

Also, I'm a fathead minnow fan. They are heavy reproducers that I believe could be an integral part of the food chain.

This is just an idea that I have. I think manure might be quite important as a jump start to pond fertility.

What size Blue Gill will you need to stock in the fall to ensure they will be mature enough to spawn in the spring? I’m sure the warmer winters in TX allow for faster growth, but will 1 to 2 inch fish be ready?

hugghins,

Interesting experiment. We need to get together and compare notes on experiments. I'm just south of Lufkin and would enjoy talking to you.

As to your experiment, I think the wild card may be Tilapia. Tilapia may very well skew your results such that you can not make general conclusions. I have found that several conclusions I could have made would not have been vaild without the presence of Tilapia.

Why would I say that? Because they are so prolific, their effects overshadow those of other changes you may make to your ponds. They take pressure off the BG, they increase LMB weights as well as HSB.

Now, I would not be without them, but I feel your experiment should not include them in order to get a good baseline. Keep us posted and come on down to Leggett and visit my experimental ponds.

Thanks for the replies. I'll keep everyone updated on the results.

John Boat... I believe we were just looking at 1" - 2" bluegill in the fall.

Meadowlark... I just have Tilapia in the back of my mind for some point in the future if it seems they are needed. Not sure on them. Next time I'm in your area, I'd love to come by and see your place. Also, if you're ever in the Rusk area, Please come by. If you have any way to send some rain up this way, please do so.

For the initial stocking of bluegill, I would go with some 3 to 4 inch. Some of them will be about ready to spawn and their progeny will still be growing somewhat during the winter and early spring months. I'm sure Overton knows more about this than I do.

I am not about to question a respected pro like Todd Overton. I am 100% confident this modified stocking plan will work. However, for my own knowlege, I would like to discuss it in more detail.

We have discussed the benefits in year one of the bass stocking. How about year two? Will the large numbers of 1 and 2 year old sunfish reduce bass recruitment(Lepomis sp. are generally considered egg and fry eaters). If so, will this have a negative or positive affect on the goal of "Trophy LMB".

Also, what is the rational for adding 4000 more small sunfish in year two? Adding 4000 fish to an estimated growing population of 100,000 seems like a drop in the lake. Is this an insurance policy?

Good Luck with you new lake!

Dave... I'm actually unclear on what size bluegill Todd wanted to use in the initial stocking so you may be correct about needing to stock larger bluegill.

Jayman... I'll defer to Todd on answering your question also. I'm a bit of a rookie at this but definitely trying to learn as fast as I can. Hopefully, Todd can shed more light when he returns.

huggins :

It sounds interesting . I will be interested in reading overton's remarks and thoughts. Differeent types of stocking plans can work and have better results than the normal approach. It does take some thought to adapt them to a specific pond. The basics of the plan as you described sounds good to me. I agree with Dave that the use of some larger BG in lower amounts can work very well to get a jump start on your forage base especially if it is part of a multi- stage stocking plan. I bet overton will do this right and you will be suprised how well it works. Keep us posted so we all can think about and make use of this type of plan. ewest

huggins,

I am VERY interested in your stocking plans...date, size and quanity. Whenever you and TO get is planned out, will you post here?

Gator

I propose the experiment for one good reason.

Some folks who stock high numbers of mature bluegill in early spring get little recruitment of young bluegill due to predation. Bass are stocked without this knowledge and quickly eat whatever small bluegill that are produced then have a tremendous hurdle to clear to access now 6"+ initial bluegill stockers.

Keep in mind that 100,000 small bluegill may only amount to 300-500 lbs of fish and also is a liberal estimate of production potential. High production of young bluegill would promote slow growth among that population, allowing for increased room for growth once predators are introduced and start to impact blgl numbers. Proposal to stock more bluegill at time of bass stocking is for insurance, in case the experiment doesn't work, in case bluegill production is lower than expected, and for me to stay in business. Tilapia aren't needed until the following year.

3"-4" blgl would be stocked in early spring. 1"-3" bluegill would be stocked with bass fingerlings. 2" bass fingerlings would be stocked at 100/acre, then culled down the line as needed.

Need not worry about possible predation of lmb fry by bluegill.....shouldnt' be a problem. Better lmb population control is something most of us need in our lakes and ponds.

For this plan to work....control aquatic vegetation...stock 2-3 grass carp per acre first year. Fertilize the pond. Do not feed for first year. Let plankton and available baitfish niche find its own way to top of food chain for first year.

I would expect bass fingerlings to grow to 1# by fall if this works.

hi e1 , first off this is an incredible site for pond info !!read almost every post !!just subscribed to the magazine i love to read and learn about ponds, im a pond fanatic i guess!! last year i built a half acre pond 15 ft deep didnt stock it yet but im incredibly anxious!!! wanted trout but after monitoring temp { summer around 78 f } its too risky for trout i thought i had more ground water but i guess its mostly runoff no problems keeping it full though, this plan interest me would half an acre pond be too small to try this??? i know my options are limited!! would appreciate any help!!

Brian - LMBass & Trout Stocking Options. Keep in mind that hugghins has an expert at his disposal to tweak and provide advice when needed. Also huggins has a bigger pond than you and it is in TX with longer summers (growing seasons). In your case I vote that you do a standard stocking of minnows, bgill and LMbass. A few HSB can be added for angling variety with the LM bass present. However there are numerous options or stocking combinations that you could take. Additonal types of forage items can be stocked to diversify the forage base. The few HSB could be added at the same time as the LMB. You could even stock 50% LMB and 50% HSG if feeeding is provided. The most important thing is to get your forage fish and other critters established before adding predators. Successfully growing LMbass in a small pond like yours almost requires stocking pellet trained LMB to get the optimum results with LMB in a small pond. Do lots of reading here about stocking, feeding, and managing numbers before making your final decision.

TROUT OPTION. 10"-13" trout can be stocked this fall when water temps get 68F (mid to late Sept). Contact Cecil (north central IN) on this forum about the best places for you to buy larger trout and the best raising methods. Trout will feed and grow rapidly until freeze up and continue growing at ice off. Early winter and early spring aeration could extend the feeding / growing season by several weeks or a month for the trout. You could see 14" maybe up to 16" trout by every July. Expect them to die by July. A mild summer next year could see trout survive at above the thermocline until you get 85F+ air temps. After the first year or two forget mid summer survival of trout in your area unless you add well water from mid June thru August. So catch out as many as possible before July. You can chose not to raise larger warmwater fish during the heat of the summer and each fall stock the trout and enjoy them until each late June or early July 1. During each summer heat period your pond could ecologically recover from the heavy feeding that occurs during the other seasons. Whenever you tire of the trout raising and annual stockings a warm water stocking could always be done several years later. Larger sizes of LMbass (15"-18") and 8" to 10" trout do not mix well together; i.e. expensive bass food.

One of the big advantages of this annual trout pond idea is that each year you will always have a "fresh" group of willing, aggressive, fish that are NOT hook smart and they should always be relatively eager to bite. Reading some of the past posts here will reveal that overfishing and producing hook smart fish in a small warmwater bass pond can VERY easily occur. With your annually stocked trout pond, overfishing shouldn't ever be a problem. Depending on your location in IN you may or maynot have ice fishing for trout as an option. If you are in southern IN your ice cover may not be that long and the winter open water fishing is extended and would be okay for catching trout. Biggest disadvantage is annual cost of 50 to 100 larger trout which may be a couple hundred dollars each fall. How bad do you want trout?

I'll chime in on the bass recruitment concept. While it's easy to accept the theory of bass not reproducing in bluegill heavy ponds, be sure to think about the consequences.
One case in point strikes me. I have a client in central Oklahoma who stocked bluegill fingerlings into his 30 acre lake in spring of 2000. The fish were 1-2" long, 1,000 per acre. Fatheads were also stocked, at 5# per acre. He fed them from his dock, and these fish were eating 25 pounds of Game Fish Chow daily within two months. By fall, bluegill feed hogs were 4-6" long and aggressive. Some fatheads were seen at the scene of the feeding.
This landowner waited a year to stock bass, to be confident of genetics. (He wanted young fish, and chose to wait until the new hatch was ready the next year.) Bluegill growth leveled off. He decided not to feed more than his 25 pounds per day, off the dock.
50 bass fingerlings per surface acre were stocked spring 2001. He stocked 750 1-2" Florida strain and 750 native strain largemouth bass.
Growth rates were outstanding. By fall 2002, bass were 12-14" long, but hard to catch. Easy to understand...mucho food and fifty bass in the area of a football field.
By the end of 2002, his bass averaged 3.2 pounds, documented via electrofishing. But, catch rates were low. Electrofishing also showed increasing numbers and size classes of bluegill and zero recruitment of bass. Great.
But, as we thought things through, the concern became a stunted bluegill population feeding a thriving, low number of largemouth bass.
The lake was electrofished late spring 2003, still no recruitment of bass. Individual bluegill growth had leveled off, bass were thriving.
The decision was made to bring in a year class of bass in the 10-12" range. This landowner has a number of small ponds on his ranch, most under management. 125 bass were stocked in spring 2003.
The results have been amazing. Where we were seeing two, maybe three size classes of bluegill, we now see six. There are three size classes of bass. Bass range in size from 8 inches to eight pounds. Average size bass is still climbing, even including small bass. The average bass in this lake is beyond four pounds. Catch rates are excellent. The landowner reported he and his buddies caught 22 bass during the July 4 weekend which weighed beyond five pounds, the biggest tipped the scales at 8 lbs 2 ounces. They caught a total of 68 bass in two days. He is thrilled.
So, when you try your experiment, it would be wise to use a small mesh seine to verify spawns and reproductive rates. You can have as much as 100,000 small bluegill per acre...but you could also have as little as 1,000 or even zero. Verify, and follow the experiment based on facts. You are paving new ground, so it makes sense to leave nothing to chance. This experiment could lead to rethinking of stocking rates, if handled well.

Good advise Bob, thanks for posting.

Yes, since this is a small pond setting I am not worried about low bass recruitment. It would be cheap to stock more if recruitment is low. Plus this customer plans to stock HSB.

We'll plan to have a seine out there to verify bluegill recruitment before stocking bass, and modify plan accordingly.

TYVM Bill !! warm and cold water species how can u go wrong sounds very good to me dont mind restocking at all ... they look on my kids face when they catch a fish is worth every penny !! ps : sry i messed up last post im from northern ontario i wish they would have HSB over here too bad not their not allowed. thx again!!

Brian G. Trout should not be a problem for you in Ontario. Survival shold usually occur for your trout in mid-summer. Trout should be able to be caught most every month except maybe July & Aug when they seek deeper cooler water. Do a search using the word trout and especially note the posts by Wood who is also from northwest central Canada. Search in all forum headings since some of his trout posts are in Aeration section. He provided hints and advice for keeping trout alive during 3 ft of ice cover. You might want to communicate (email) with Wood personally for advice. Wood still reads and posts comments here periodically.

Bill thx again!!i will try and find these posts... i thought trout wouldnt be a problem either at first till my temps reached 77- 78f during the summer although it was a hot one !! these temps lasted for about a month or so, i checked it at an 18inch depth . I think im real close to the border line i will definately find out next fall if the trout make it or not, if not ill restock a few of them every fall,woulnt mind bluegill and bass too!! this would be an unexpected bonus to have warm and cold species in same pond. thx Brian

Hey Brian, how far North are you wrt, say, Timmins and Sudbury?

Theo im 15min north of Sudbury.

Small World. For years, my In-Laws (mostly Grand-In-Laws) vacationed at a lake near Matachewan (sp?) next to a cabin owned by a guy from Sudbury (who provided outhouse and hot sponge bath privileges in exchange for Jack Daniels - a real Gentleman!). I got the pleasure of going along once after I married into the family. Good Walleye and Northern fishing; if you portaged to the next lake upstream there was GREAT Walleye and Northern fishing.

Yes it is a small world and the pickeral fishing is good.... which got me thinking maybe a few nice pickeral would keep my bluegill in check theres a hot spot only 10 min away from home with a healthy population of nice walleye they bite best in fall which could make them easier to restock in my pond i know its probably not a good idea LB are excellent predators too. Brian.

BG - Dandy walleye, those females were probably quite old for your region. What is the preferred bait for walley gators that size?

Bgill may not grow very large and very fast due to fewer degree growing days in your northern area. Have you thought about raising perch in your pond. They may adapt better to the cooler temps. If you can get perch to feed on trout pellets; watch them really grow. Stock SM bass or walleye for population control. How big and deep is your pond? I did not see the size of it in your post.

Bill , my pond is a half acre 15 ft deep mainly fed by runoff it will be 1 year old this fall.I installed a wind mill this past summer to try and boost DO a bit i also added a couple thousand minnows that multiplied over the summer now it will soon be time to stock. perch? sounds like another option!,i recently called a fish supplier for his bluegill he says they grow close to a pound or so , but forgot to ask him how long it took ,he added that they should spawn very well. He his 4 hours south east of me { closest farm for warm water species and 1 of 2 that i could find in ontario VERY limited here } he sells perch also but not feed trained. Im going to research perch a little, spawning habits etc... i can catch them locally but im not sure if that would be a good idea i think from a fish farm might be better he also has LB and SB among severals others. Those females had small bass and some minnows in their stomach but im pretty sure they also feed on smaller pickeral because i missed a BIG female one night , we were just catching a lot of a small pickeral fingerlings just before dusk 6 to 7 inches no big ones and as i was realing in a small one and almost at the boat a big ??? inhaled the little guy!!! the fight didnt last long and i lost her? but what a rush!!!! now i didnt see it but im convinced it was a pickeral their is pike in the lake too but there very small there and dont pull the same...at dusk too??
i no its not concrete evidence but i believe they eat their own to a certain size. Bill i thank you for helping me out here !! i thought stocking would the easiest part!! i was wrong !!bluegill or perch?? theres no bluegill around here and i never tasted one ive read that there very good eating ,the kids would have a blast catching them and perch there all over here but all small and not that good of a fighter , if i could train them to eat though ?? they d be bigger ,stronger not sure if i could had a hard time training my dog, a school of fish?? Hmm im leaning towards bluegill i do not know of a lake that has bluegill around here!!there a nice fish too!! but who knows ill research a little more and see thx again !! Brian