Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations What kind of fish are these

Our 30+ year old, barely 1 acre, spring fed pond is finally getting an aeration system put in. They sprayed today to get the vegetation down so Sunday my BF and a neighbor decided to see what they could catch before a possible fishkill. There is disagreement on whether or not these are bluegill. I told them I would post here and be a go between -



My BF has lived on this property 25 years of his life and this pond has never been stocked to hs knowledge.





This was the largest one so I took a close up. I will be adding photostylist for Pond Boss to my resume, I guess ~



I await your comments -

Yep. Bluegill.
How did they taste? :p

QT,

Yep, very nice BG but...have you ever heard the expression "don't eat your seed corn?"

BG are the seed corn of a good predator based pond life cycle..

All the fish in the photo appear to be pure strain northern bgill. The view is angled but it is a good chance all fish are males. If you do additional fishing any other slightly lighter colored large bgill type fish are probably the females.

QT, just a side note.

If I'm reading that tape measure correctly, are some of those bluegill nine and ten inches?

And if Bill feels that those are all males, and that the females are even bigger, you may have something very special happening in this "unstocked" and maybe "unmanaged" pond. Those are some bigger bluegill. If the pond was way out of whack, I don't think the bluegill would seem that healthy. There could be some massive LMB in there also.

It could be a shame to change anything before you find out exactly what you have going on in there.

Thank you for the posts. I am new to all this pond/fish information, but so far here is what I know. I was incorrect when I said it had never been stocked - our neighbor was unemployed last spring and went fishing quite a bit. He put whatever bluegill he caught into this pond - he estimates about 20 fish.

My BF's dad used to take care of the pond, but he died in 1995. My BF was in the military when his dad died, and over the past ten years nothing has been done - no bacteria added, no raking, etc.

I have lived there for 2 years and the plants and algae growing in the pond are pretty bad. The pic I posted is from May, so believe me, it doesn't look that way now. The pond curves around and opens up quite a bit where you can't see in the pic - I should post another. Anyway, we think it is about 10-12 feet deep on the back end and that must be where these fish take refuge - there is no algae in that area. The rest of the pond is so full of weeds you can barely get a boat through there.

It has been rainy with cool nights here in Southern Wisconsin and in the past couple weeks the pond has gone from 85% algae covered to maybe 40%. We assumed there was nothing more than sunfish in there because of low oxygen levels. However, in the spring when the pond is clear you can see the beds the bluegill make - we just weren't sure how many were in there.

SO - there are ALOT more bluegill in the pond - several were netted out and put back in. Also, with the weather change and the water doing a little turning over, I am hoping enough oxygen remains that they will survive despite the spraying.

I don't know anything about bluegill and their ideal environment. My BF and our neighbor used to think their might be some bass in there, but no one has caught any in at least 15 years.

I think the aeration system will be a key componenet, and I was told that there were too many plants in it for them to even install it. Believe me, I resisted the application of chemicals for a long time but I think long term it was a good decision. We are using Aquatic Biologists and they applied Cutrine, Aquathol K and Reward.

I want this to be a healthy pond AND a fun pond for people to fish in. I am open to any and all comments and suggestions on stocking and improving the quality for the fish. I have been lurking on this site for quite some time and learned a lot from others.

QT,

You have an interesting situation. Generally when we see large BG in a pond, and your BG are large, that is a sign that LMB are also present and that in general you have a healthy pond life cycle.

However, you say that no LMB have been seen or caught for 15 years. But, you also said that a neighbor stocked 20 or so large BG about a year ago.

It may be that the pond didn't have much or any fish until that neighbor stocked the BG and what you are catching are those original BG.

If that is the case, stocking LMB is probably a necessity for you. Why? BG reproduce a lot. Without the presence of a predator, such as LMB, the BG will quickly overpopulate leaving you with all small BG. In a good balance, you will have BG of all sizes, some small, some medium, some large like you have now.

Stocking LMB would be consistent with your objectives of having a fun pond to fish in.

If applied properly, the chemicals you mentioned should not hurt your fish. I've used Reward and Cutrine and both are good products. Reward will kill any vegetation is touches and Cutrine will get after your algae.

Somehow you need to get a better handle on your fish population. Observe carefully and often, fish a variety of lures and techniques, and even employ a throw net or seine if needed, but try to get a better handle on what you have in the pond, then you can make a more informed decision on what to do next.

Keep us informed on your progress. You do have an interesting situation.

thank you ML -

I was concerned that with the amount of plant life being killed it would draw available oxygen out of the water - perhaps that assumption was incorrect.

There are copious amounts of snakes, frogs and salamanders in and around the pond, and for the past two years I have lived here (1 yr prior to the neighbors stocking plan) there have been enough fish to sustain a pair of kingfishers and the fly-ins from blue herons. Especially now with the water level so low, we see a couple of herons in the shallow end of the pond (the view you have in the above photo)I'm sure catching frogs.

A branch of the Sugar River runs behind our property and when it is high enough there is a small feeder that runs into the pond from the creek. It is capped right now to keep our water level where it is at. Since the above photo was taken, I would say we are down about 3.5 feet in water level.

This weekend we are removing brush and box elder trees from some of the banks and I will see if I can get the boys to do some more fishing. Is there anything I should think about doing stocking -wise this fall? Maybe I should ask that in another thread?

I should also mention we have some ducks and geese (domestic)that use the pond but they stay in the shallows. I have never seen them over in the "deep end".

My suggestion is to first find out what you have and then proceed from there. You need LMB, if you do not have them already. They would be good to add this fall once you determine that 1) there are not any now and 2) that you have an adequate forage base.

Another possibility, if you find you do not have adequate forage, is to stock fathead minnows this fall and LMB next spring...but from your pictures of terrific BG, some to die for, you should have the forage now.

Stay with us and let us know what happens and what you decide. Thanks.

p.s. remember I wrote "if properly applied" in reference to the chemicals. If not properly applied, then yes you have a very real risk of DO problems and fish kills.

All the critters in the pond indicate it's probably healthy. There may be plenty of predatory fish you just haven't found yet.

The branch running into the pond is a real wild card. There's a good possibility you have many species of fish in there. Keep fishing, you may get a surprise or 2!

Why would you change anything??? Why take a chance on a fish kill for a areation system abviously you do not need

QT - Consider this. It is a possibility that the pond in the recent past, before you lived there, winter killed. Some of the bgill that the neighbor caught and added last spring may have been the ones that were caught for the picture. Ask the neighbor about the size of those bgill he added. When you or friends fish next time, fish with some pretty small hooks (No. 8 or 10) and use garden worms and maybe some fresh caught crickets. You should not have any problem catching a few 4"to 6" bgill if the ponds has a normal number of fish. If all you catch are big bgill then the pond may not have many other fish in it besides the young from this spring's bgill spawn; again a likelhood of a past massive winterkill.

I think a long term plan for the pond should include a draining and rebuilding which includes an overall deepening and reducing, widening or eliminating the narrow neck in the photo. Dirt spoils from the large basin could be used to fill in the narrow neck area. The narrow neck expanse of shallow water will always be a "weed-haven" and you will be annually, chemically killing the ever-infesting weeds and slowly turing your pond into a chemical depository.

Try to verify the depth of the large baisn. If the pond is rebuilt, it could be redesigned so it does not have so much shallow water and slow sloping banks. Ideally, a pond that experiences the winters of WI should be 15-20 ft deep.

Do not expect an aerator to do much for reducing the amount of weed growth.
Try and post an additional picture of the large basin looking towards the narrow weedy neck.

I will try to address the points brought up one at a time -

1) The neighbor that added fish is the same one that helped catch them and he thinks there is a very good chance that these fish are the ones he put in there. Prior to him putting fish in the pond, we did see bluegill "nests", but the fish didn't look very big. Right now you can walk around the perimeter of the pond and see small fish. Like I said previously, we always assumed these were green sunfish not BG. Several 4-6 inch BG's were caught on Sunday. Most were thrown back in, some are being used by said neighbor for bait in his raccoon traps. :rolleyes:

2) The spring is in the shallow part of the pond. My BF did remove the cap from the inflow area one year to drain the water from the shallow areas so the plants could be removed from the "neck" (he just told me this about an hour ago!). He said the water never stopped flowing from one side to the other, so the spring is pretty healthy. I think if we didn't have three 70 foot tall willow trees around the pond, it wouldn't be so low right now. WIth very little rainfall, I can only imagine the gallons of water they are "drinking" every day. SO filling in the neck is an interesting concept but one that I'm not sure we could pull off given the amount of water coming out of there. Widening & deepening it might be a bette option.

3) I should clarify that I don't have a big problem with weeds - I have a huge problem with algae. The pond will always have vegetation in it to some degree, and that is ok because we are not swimming in it. This pond is less than 50 feet from our deck and it is disgusting to sit out there and look at brown algae all summer. So the system is being put in to reduce the algae problem. They have recommended a 3/4 HP rotary vane compressor with three BB-38 diffusers w/self-sinking hose. Let me know if you think this is not enough -too much.

4) The company we are using recommended adding bacteria and dye in the spring to facilitate muck breakdown and limit some plant growth. The water is very clear and water quality is very hard. My BF said his dad used to swim in the deeper area when he was very young and his dad would run across the lawn and dive in so I have to assume it is at least 12 feet deep in that area. Do you recommend a method to verify depth?

Also, the shallow areas are pretty free of plants right now due to the ducks and geese being in there. I KNOW that they are adding to the "nutrient load" but they do an awesome job and they aren't in there all day.

It is pouring here today but I will try to take additional photos and post them. I find all the feedback her very helpful because so far the only people I have talked to are trying to sell me something so it is hard to know why they are recommending what they do.

QT,

The depth of the pond can be easily measured with a string, a weight, and someone to lower it to the bottom. If you don't have a small boat, send your BF out on an inner tube to get the measurements.

Your algae is being caused by nutrients in the water column. Do you have fertilized lawns or fertilized areas that have run-off that feeds the pond? If so, that is likely the source of your problem.

Control of algae is best accomplished at the source, i.e. the nutrients coming into the pond. That is not always possible. I'm not convinced that aeration will eliminate algae, but you live in a significantly different region of the country than I so maybe it will work. Other treatments include the Cutrine plus which you have tried and organic treatments including barley straw and cottonseed meal.

Do a search on this site for those topics and you will find much info.

Businesses are in business to make money, period. Fish/ponds businesses are no different. They make money by selling you products and/or expertise. The more they sell, the more money they make. We all have seen the good, bad , and ugly of these folks. Most are good.

Try to be a "smart buyer" and lots of folks on this site can help in that regard with no conflict of interest.

OK - Here is what I was told (not by the people trying to sell me the aeration system, either, but by different people trying to sell me fish) -

It was explained to me that we have anaerobic conditions in the pond so organic matter is not being broken down very efficiently because of low oxygen conditions. This in turn is making phosphorus compounds available for the algae. Also, the pond can't keep up with decomposition so the new material piles up and over time the pond gets a thick layer of muck in the bottom and becomes shallower and shallower. I can attest to the muck factor - I sunk in about a foot rescuing one of my ducks from a snapping turtle earlier this year, and I had to scrub my feet and calves - the mud actually stained my skin. Lost some shoes but saved the duck and later trapped the snapper - no love lost there.

The first recommendation was dredging, but I don't have a spare $15K on hand. Next is to remove a lot of overhanging brush and trees that contribute to additional organic matter in the pond - that is in progress.

Meadowlark, I was told here in WI ponds go through two stratification periods in winter & summer where gases become trapped in the colder, bottom layers of the pond. I don't believe you would experience this to the same degree since your pond does not freeze. This would be the partial cause of the "winter kill" Bill Cody refers to.

Bill Cody - I forgot to mention there used to be a bridge over the "neck" of the pond and this is where my BF remembers catching LMB when he was 13 yrs old and sitting on the bridge.

Also, I do NOT want to use chemicals repeatedly in the water - It was done as a last resort.

Neighbor has his boat over so we will measure depth this weekend. As you can tell, our neighbors are 100% behind us rehabbing this pond - it is great support to have.

Does the above sound feasible? From my research on this site, it sounded like these people knew what they were talking about, but I am open to all comments and suggestions, so fire away.

Edited to add : we do not fertilize because the birds graze everywhere. We have 4.5 acres, so the only runoff would be from our property.

QT - The rationale of the aeration supplier for the reasons for an aerator are pretty sound. Excess phosphours can be released from anaerobic, black sediments to nutrify a pond internally. The waterfowl manure also recycles an abundance of nutrients. Both sources can feed algae growth. An aerator MAY help reduce the filamentous string algae but duck manure may overshadow the nutrient abatement affects or benefits of the aerator.

Due to the shape of the pond the proposed aerator system seems to be sized about right. What is the proposed cost? It may be a little oversized for your situation but it is way better to have ample diffused air volume compared to too little air volume. Additonal air wil cause the diffusers to make more bubbles and move somewhat more water per hour of operation. The larger sized aerator may not need to be operated 24 hours a day in your one acre pond. 8 to 12 hrs a day may be able to adequately circulate (turnover) your pond, especially if your maximum depth is close to 12 ft deep.

Aerator operation with ducks may (possibly?) result in more green water (phytoplankton) conditions and less filamentous algae due to lower light transparencies. Time will verify this theory.

Try to get someone to catch and take pictures of the smaller sized panfish (bgills) and post them. Photograph several 3"to 6"ers. Produce a picture looking down on the fish instead of from an angled view. Bass should probably be restocked into the pond to insure a strong predator population. If you fish for bgill with worms or crickets someone should be able to catch at least one bass per 20 bgills. Keep track of the number AND sizes caught and keep us informed.

thanks Bill - I guess I have some homework for the weekend!

We had tornados in the area last night and very heavy rains. Chemicals were applied on Tuesday, and I walked around the pond this morning. Algae on surface is at zero. I can see small brown mats in some areas floating beneath the surface - I would say visibility is about 6-8 inches this morning, much better than it was earlier in the week when it was zero. I saw no fish at the surface and no dead fish. I saw some small fish around the cattail portion of the pond swimming around. Also observed a muskrat swimming (not sure how safe the water is for him yet) and several painted turtles.

Costs quoted for aeration system are as follows -
3/4 HP compressor - $720
3 BB-38 diffusers - $840
650 ft self sinking hose - $1040
Cabinet with fan - $330

I requested the self sinking hose after reading about it here- once this thing is in I don't want to have to do maintenance on it all the time.

The ducks and geese repeatedly go to the same areas in the pond - the neck and another shallow area under a willow tree. These areas are always algae and plant free, obviously - the birds actually ate quite a bit of plant life in the pond. You would always see fish swimming in the cleared areas as well. They also spend a lot of time digging in the pond bottom for snails, etc. The water was always very clear in the areas where they bathe and forage. We aren't talking 100 birds, either - just 15.

Let me know what you think about those costs and I will post some pics on Monday of fish and pond layout.

QT,

It's very common to find no surface algae after good hard rains. It will return, however, with time and continue to plague until the nutrients are managed.

By the way, other than being very unsightly, the filimentous algae is harmless. In fact, I have a friend who is considered a top LMB fisherman who swears that it is actually good for fishing in small waters because it provides cover during hot weather.

I don't subscribe to that but wanted to say that there are worse things in a pond than algae.

Here I was thinking the Cutrine had done such an awesome job!

I know there are worse things than algae - for me it might be snapping turtles. Man, you should have seen some of the snappers we trapped. The largest weighed over 15 lbs.

In my quest to get rid of the algae without using chemicals, I started doing a lot of research on how to get the pond healthy (or healthier). My BF's dad did not have an algae problem, but I don't know why as the pond was not and still is not a source of interest for my BF, so he didn't "take notes" on what was being done. This is pretty much my baby with my neighbor being an avid fisherman and very interested in helping turn the pond back into what it was many years ago. I don't fish, but I am a nature girl and the pond is a source of entertainment for me in the amount of wildlife I get to observe - in my own backyard.

I don't want you guys to think I expect this pond to look crystal clear - I don't. And I am also not going to put chemicals in it every year. I guess where I stand right now is I am going to do everything I can to prevent it/ correct the problems. If after that, I still have some algae, so be it. As long as the entire surface isn't covered, I can live with that.

Great attitude...I like it!

If prices include installation they are not outragous. Options See below.
Weighted airline price is about average.

Compressor (3/4hp) with quality fittings is average to a little high. Make sure it includes an air pressure guage, pressure relief valve, and also a check valve on the outlet manifold is good to have.

Price for Cabinet/fan is average for high quality compressor cabinets.

If it was my aeration system in your specific northern situation, I would request a "metal box" commercial timer to be installed in the cabinet. I would run the compressor no more than 12 hrs per day. Two 6 hr run periods (post- dawn & pre-dusk) should very adequately mix your sized pond, based on its shape and volume. The high organic load from adjacent trees does put high stress on the dissolved oxygen budget of your pond (above picture). But I think Over-mixing in a small pond is overkill and the excess does not warrant the overall expense of extra power and premature compressor wear&tear/maintainence. Opinions will vary on this.

3 diffusers for $830 is a bit high. What exactly are BB-38 diffusers??. Can you email me the company name or website? The diffusers must be their high profit items. Purchasing everything else but the diffusers from them, will not do you much good. I guess it is all or nothing.

Don't take this as gloom and doom, but I am not sure the aerator will do $3000 worth of benefits for your pond BASED on what I perceive as YOUR current goals and expectations for the pond. That is a lot of money to spend right now to minimize fish kills and to make your neighbor happy to catch some fish. AGAIN ASK THE INSTALLATION SALES COMPANY FOR THE EXPECTED RESULTS YOU WILL SEE IN YOUR POND WHEN RUNNING THE AERATOR. ASK IF THEY WILL PUT IT IN WRITING FOR YOU SO YOU CAN READ IT AGAIN NEXT YEAR AND COMPARE THE PROMISE WITH THE VISIBLE OR ACTUAL RESULTS. Expect to still see filamentous algae in shallow water areas (less than 5 ft deep) next year and in future years with the aerator running. If you have ordered the air system do not cancel it. Bruce Condello's recent post testified that fish kills can still happen in summer with a bottom aerator running - Q&Obser, Observations On Oxygen - August 2005
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001949


If the order has not been placed, You might want to wait till the BF comes home permanently and he can put an aerator together himself at a savings. The savings can be used to defray some of the cost of rebuilding the pond. The proposed high dollar aerator will work in a rebuilt pond so the money will not be wasted. But in a deepened, rebuilt 0.75-1.0 acre "roundish" pond one diffuser and a fully equipped 1/4 hp compressor ($360-400), plus diffuser $40-100, & airline (??) will adequately do the job of destratifying a ROUNDISH to squarish 15'to 18' deep pond when running 8 to 10 hrs per day.

A home-made properly constructed shelter can be put together for between $30 - $100. High quality diffusers can be purchased for about $60-120 ea.

Weigthted airline is not necessary but very nice to have if you have the extra money. You will pay about their quoted price when shipping is added to a catalog ordered, cheaper priced, weighted airline. Many people use just 1/2" black polyetheylene irrigation pipe and weight it with bricks. Do-it-yourself (BF) cost for 650ft of poly pipe around about $60.00 (Menards) . Remember one diffuser in a roundish pond would require a lot less underwater airline; 200 ft max.

WHY NEW OR DIFFERENT PROBLEMS?
Pond problems tend to change as the pond matures or gets older. Nutrients accumulate, water chemistry is always changing and new species become or get introduced over time. As pond conditions change the new conditions favor growth of new or different species. Lack of competition or nutrient surges can cause one species to grow out of control or become a nuisance.

Hi Bill - Thank you for the feedback.

I will ask the questions you posed of the installers. To answer your questions -

Here is a link to the BB-38 diffusers.
http://www.mixairtech.com/images/competition/BB38%20vs%20web.pdf

Here is a link to the company doing the work -

http://www.lakeandpondsolutions.com/index2.ivnu

As for when I will see the return on the $3,000 investment for the system - well, I guess I don't think of it in those terms. I view the aeration system as more of a long-term problem solver with regard to the stratification issues. The difference in the pond from spring to mid summer is dramatic and if I can slow that process down I think we will be in good shape. As I said, I can handle a little bit of algae.

My BF lives on the property now full time. However, he is not interested in taking on this (aeration) project or I WOULD have him building some of these components. We were told by the company that we could provide any of the components of the system ourselves, however they had to be NEW in order for them to include them under their 1-year warranty. Without my BF to make repairs, I know this is costing me more money, however, it is the only way to get what I want - I'm sure you see where I'm coming from. The length of his honey-do list is already cause for alarm (to him.)

As for the neighbor - he is good to have around since I don't fish and I know that the presence of these species tells me a lot about the health of the pond.

My BF and 4 guys cleared a lot of brush this weekend and there was an LMB sighting but nothing caught yet. Also, in the 4 days the birds have been out of the pond there are 6 new BG spawning beds in the areas they normally frequent. The waterfowl tend to turn over the bottom and expose a lot more sandy/gravel type soil.

I took photos this weekend which I will download tonight. The LMB fishing will continue tonight and hopefully I will have a "delicious bass" to show for it soon.

The company is reputable with knowledgable staff. Diffusers should work good and do as much as bottom aeration can do for your situation.

Here are some pics of the pond before and after treatment.







Here are a couple full length shots - the area that was cleared is the whole bank between the two willow trees. The box elders were left there because there are bees nests in them.





Here is the "larger" half - this pic was taken from the birds favorite spot and the BG nests are directly in front of me in the water.



Here is a BG nest and depending on your screen, you can maybe see the BG in the top right of the nest.

When you get them done, I am very interested in hearing about your depth measurements. Several depth measurements down through the total length of the pond will be informative.

All those trees adjacent to the pond contribute lots of organic materials each year to the pond. These materials accelerate pond aging and put a large demand on the oxygen budget of the pond.