Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Thievery at my pond

Just a little background on my pond - It's different from most in that there's a stream, maybe 20' wide, that has a small dam across it. Just on the upstream side of the damn is a horizontal inlet pipe (4' diameter) that feeds my pond; downstream about a hundred feet is another horizontal pipe which is the outlet. The stream runs parallel to the long side of my pond for about 1,000 feet. The stream and pond are seperated by an abandoned railroad bed sans the actual tracks.

Last year, I rebuilt the damn with sandbags and lined both the upstream and downstream sides with 2' by 3' concrete patio slabs. We secured them in place with 6' re-bar staked into the ground. The re-bar was tightened down with cable wire. This gave me about an extra 18" of water in my pond.

My caretake has just informed me that someone has been stealing the 2' x 3' slabs from the damn.

These slabs are about $5 or $6 bucks a piece.

A lot of theft in the area of my property is due to heroin junkies which is a big problem. But I can't imagine a smack junkie (or several of them) ripping off these concrete slabs.

Here are several factors to consider:

1) The slabs weigh about 80lbs each.

2) The stream where the dam is lays about 15 vertical feet below the railroad berm, and it's a steep climb up or down.

3) You really need a truck to haul these slabs due to their weight (FYI, cars can drive on the railroad bed).

4) To get these slabs off the dam, you would almost surely have to stand in about 3' deep water which would be around 35 degrees in temperature. You would have to stand in the water for several minutes per slab that you were stealing.

5) So far, (15) slabs have been taken from my dam.

Besides making a concrete slab patio, can anyone think of other uses or why someone would be stealing these things?

Also, I'm beginning to formulate a plan to catch these thiefs, and am surely considering the trail camera usage.

Any replies are greatly appreciated.

Sunil,

Interesting. My advice...get a stealth camera/game camera and be the only person, including caretaker, who knows about it.

Also, some well placed steel traps can be very discouraging to all kinds of foot traffic. Good luck!

Sunil,

How about fastening them down somehow? Concrete?

I wouldn' recommend setting any traps. As crazy as it sounds you could be liable. What about the old railroad track bed access sans the tracks? Can you put up a barricade to keep vehicle traffic out and make it a really far walk with the slabs to the vehicle?

How well do you know the caretaker? Is it possible he is in on this?

Cecil,

On your own private property, with no trespassing signs posted, you can be liable for someone who stumbles into an animal trap? Geez, not in Texas I hope!

Cecil, Meadowlark,

Thanks for the replies.

I'll be getting one or a few of these stealth cameras very soon.

I can't say for 100% certainty that my caretaker is not in on this thievery, however, my gut tells me he is not.

We are thinking of ways to secure the "new" slabs we put down. We're thinking about how we could use concrete.

The railroad berm is owned by CSX, and we can't stop traffic on it for now. It's the greatest source of trespasser's access to my pond & property.

I like the trap idea, however I'd probably get my own damn foot caught in the thing.

Sunil:

I would have a Real Estate Attorney look into the ownership of the abandoned railroad line. Around here (don't know about anywhere else) railroads' deeds for their roadbeds are only good while they are used - the ownership is supposed to revert back to the original owner if the railroad abandoned the roadbed (this clause has been frequently ignored here as railroads have "donated" property they no longer own for use as public bicycle paths, usually to the chagrin of the surrounding property owners). If this is the case with your CSX line (and you can prove it), you should be able to recover the roadbed property and be able to block it off to prevent vehicular access.

The attorney is a good idea. My experience is a little different from Theo's. From my perspective, the railroads are the most protective entity over their property of any that we encounter. We have actually had one of their security officers draw his gun on a geologist because they were drilling a well adjacent to an active RR line (we had a permit). They usually will not let us anywhere near their abandoned lines and I have personally talked to CSX's legal department about sampling along an abandoned line with no luck. Of course I'm asking to collect environmental samples, which could result in liability, so you can't really blame them.

I do know of a about a mile of residential properties that purchased adjacent railroad property. Not sure about the cost but the City retained an easement (we are putting a sewer line down it next year). You will be lucky to beat the State and/or local government to them if available, up here they are all being turned into bike trails.

Being the "get even with em" type...I would purchase 5 or 6 boxes of roofing nails and spread them liberally on the rail bed.

Then near the road I might put a sign reminding people who are driving their cars on the rail bed that they should check their tires for unusual wear and tear.

Thevies like to steal gas too. Put one gal of antifreeze in with 4 gal of gas & leave it for them to steal.
It will lock up the engine in thier vehicle.
Best part is if they get the engine replaced the fouled gas is still in the tank & will lock up the next engine also!

Another use may be pads for A/c's?

Theo, Steve, Tim, thanks for the replies.

I've had some dealings w/ CSX legal/property dept. about getting an easement for 4' deep by 1' wide into the berm to tap in for sewer (the township has a 30 year easement to run a main sewer line through the several mile length of the rail way). After some persistence on my part, they began to cooperate and outlined the process to get an easement. I did this in preliminary planning stages for putting up a weekend house.

My property only boarders the rail way for about 2,000 feet; this is out of a few miles of the total railway within the township. So keeping vehicles off the railway is not my battle for now. Plus the local state police use it to patrol my property. They have some funny stories about high speed chases on that rail way.

There is talk of it becoming a Rails to Trails bikeway. Ironically, this could work better for me in that the current usage of that railway is not anything "upstanding." People drive the rail way to poach deer; some dump garbage; some poach fish; some drink, etc. etc. These people are all driving a car or a quad. Very few people riding bicycles. Frankly, the people who would ride bicycles on the railway, if it became Rails to Trails, would be a more "upstanding" type of person.

I'm really still puzzled about why someone would go through the massive effort to steal these slabs.

On a side note, In all my planning to build a weekend home, I've always accepted that the place may get broken into. I have several realistic and practical ideas on how to help keep the place secure (or minimize break-ins).

But now to think about someone stealing these concrete slabs. I mean WTF?

I can't help but imagine the discussion of the thieves prior to the act.........

"Hey Haws, your new trailer sure is nice. You know what 'ya need? A nice concrete slab patio out back."

"Gee Pooch, I can't afford it! Them concrete slabs is like a thousand bucks a piece!"

"Don't wurry Haws. I know where we can get some for nuthin'! You might have to stand in some freezin' water, and blow your back out, 'n slip n' fall in the mud a bunch. But ain't it wurth it?!!! I mean them slabs is like a thousand bucks a piece! You'll save hundreds a bucks!!!"

Ric, I missed your post.

I like that gas idea. How soon would it lock the engine up? I ask because if it locked up quickly, they'd still be on the railway, fairly safe from high speed and injury. I wouldn't want someone to get hurt if there was potential for a car accident.

That's an interesting idea about pads for A/C units. Thanks, that's what I'm looking for - potential uses for these things and how they could be of value after all the labor to get them.
If I know what the slabs were used for, I stand a decent chance of finding out who stole them.

Dealing with railroad property can be tricky. There are basically 3 ways railroad acquired rights to property: 1. they buy a strip (usually 100' wide) outright, called fee simple title; 2. they obtain an easement; 3. they file condemnation proceedings and take the property.

Every State has their own set of laws regarding such things. In Illinois, there may be language in a deed that the property "is to revert back to the owners", but those reverters are only good for 40 years. If the RR got only an easement, the ownership is more tricky...at any rate, your deed probably excepted the RR, so you wouldn't legally have a claim. If the property was taken in condemnation, then there are provisions for reverting back to original owners. Many conveyances are ambiguos and hard to interpret by the layman. An attorney or title company is your best approach for your real estate questions.

RR are notorious for being difficult to deal with. Be patient with their legal department relative to getting a sewer easement.

I stongly urge you to refrain from "booby traps" and stick with the camera scheme, and get law enforcement involved.

1) I myself wondered WTF anyone would steal concrete pads from an inconvenient location, but I have learned in 45 years to never overestimate the dregs of human decency or intelligence.

2) I hope if it becomes a bikepath you get a better class of trespassers. In this area we have disturbingly large numbers of reality challenged individuals, suicidal car dealers, and alleged drug dealers, rapists, and murderers hanging around on the bikepaths.

3) You folks are sure a creative lot when it comes to revenge (I bet those of you who are motorcyclists carry large glass marbles in your outside pockets). Remind me to stay on your good sides.

Sunil,

Be careful with the camera idea. When the flash goes off it is a dead giveaway.. so the thief not only takes the evidence but gets a $200-$300 camera also. The chains or straps used to secure the camera to a tree or post are like all locks...They only keep honest people honest.
You might see if there is anyway to use existing light that would enable you to disable the flash so you would not alert the thief that he has been recorded on film. You gotta think like a thief to catch one............
Good luck.
Dan

Not all railroad beds revert back to the landowner after they are not used for a railroad any longer. You need to research your deed at the courthouse all the way back to the time when the railroad took control of the property and see what it says. You may need an attorney in some cases but I would see what I could find on your own first.
Second it doesn't matter what state you are in you cannot set bobby traps and have any intent to harm or injure persons, property or equipment without being liable. So be very careful you don't get yourself in trouble.
I have property that I like to keep an eye on and I place bird houses with trail cameras in them in places where I want to monitor the activity. They never notice the cameras in the bird boxes and pictures do fly in court if you get my drift.

Sunil, I had a differant but similar enough problem to jump in here. First of all, we are not talking about the sharpest knives in the drawer. By being observant, I was able to figure out a pattern as to when I was getting "HIT". Thieves can be very repetitive. I set up a video camera (silent, no flash, video and sound are legal in court as long as it's on your private property)and caught the perp two days in a row at exactly the same time. The Police were laughing at how busted the perp was.

Just my two cents
Jimmy

Sunil, we had an ATV stolen and I was so mad that I wanted to castrate the people that did it. It was a gang of kids that were steeling from many people. The police were never able to recover my ATV but did get the kids (17-19 yrs old) on other charges.

In this process, I was cautioned to never, ever do anything that might hurt anyone. Even though they were on our property to steel, they would be able to successfully sue me for any damages occurred while they were on the property. This is because I deliberately created a safety hazzard on our property.

There have been many other threads on this subject and I suggest you read all of them.

Thanks for those helpful suggestions about the pictures/videos and the avoidance of the picture flashes, and also the concept of repitition by the thieves. I've used that concept before to bust people at my place.

Norm, I won't be doing any booby trapping, and I've read the other threads about trespassers. However, I do like Ric's idea about the bogus can of gas. I need to explore that further.

I do want to stress that I have no problem with CSX. They're more than willing to give me the easement if I ever go through with it.

If anyone has anymore thoughts on what the perps could be doing with these slabs, please post them even if they may be wild ideas.

Thanks guys.

Sunil,

I think they're smoking them! Ever get high on a slab! Sorry couldn't resist!

I wish you the best of luck!

Sunil,

Check your pond for the missing slabs. It is possible teenagers just tossed them into the pond for the fun of it.

Good luck.

Cecil, you may have a point; these were fine Columbian Slabs!

Dennis, I'll check into that possibility, although my pond was frozen solid when these slabs were taken.

Thanks guys.

Sunil,

lets see some pics of the area.

Sunil - Where did you buy these slabs?. I may need some. How thick are they?

Bill,

I hear they're going really cheap on the black market over there!

Sorry just having a little fun!