Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations perch pond

I`m having a pond dug starting next week and want to manage it for yellow perch. Is there anything special I should have done as far as depth and structure to be beneficial to perch. I guess now is the time to do what i need to do before it fills up.

The best time to create structure is before the pond is filled. I was unaware of this site last fall when my pond was completed and started filling this winter. There are many suggestions on this site...go to the search bar and look under "creating habitat". Take some time and research this site...there is a wealth of information here...if you can't find what you are looking for, someone will answer your questions. Good luck with your pond.

Trainwreck,

Structure is not that important to perch as they spend most of their time on or close to the bottom. In big lakes they spend a lot of their time near bottom traveling like nomads. I would give your pond as much depth as possible with steep banks next to shore to keep weed growth down and keep warming to a minimum. Diffuser aeration would be a must in my opinion to keep deep water habitable as that will eliminate an anoxic layer.

If you really want to grow big perch find a supplier that will sort out only females and plant only females. Females grow the largest and fastest. Males among perch are wimpy! If you have reproduction in your pond you run the risk of stunted perch unless you have a large population of predator fish. If you want to go that route you may want to hear from Bill Cody. Bill?

Get feed trained perch to boot and you have yourself a recipe for some large fast growing perch.

Where are you located? I may be able to lead you to a supplier in your state.

Did you see my state record perch I got out of one of my ponds recently? If not here's a link:

http://www.pbase.com/jjbaird/fish

You can click on the pics to make them larger.

Cecil, thanks for the great info. I am located in the southern UP (Escanaba). I was thinking about getting perch from PRI in Standish, Michigan but I dont know if they sell just females but I know they have feed trained perch.Should I stock some kind of minnows and when should I stock them,with the perch or put them in and wait a year then put the perch in?So is that mammoth perch a fluke or do you have a pond full of those giants? The world record perch came from a lake about 80 miles from here (Lake Independence)

Trainwreck,

I would call them and ask them. They may do it for an extra fee. If not, let me know and I amy be able to find another source for you. The time to get all females is before they spawn to be sure they are all females, however, you may be able to get them to sort out all females for you just after they spawn as they will look like deflated tired with bellies as thick as a dime. Just be aware it only takes one male to get them reproducing and then you could have problems with out any predator fish.

If I had to do it all over again I would have a pond just for female perch without any predator fish like bass. My bass are so agressive at feeding time they push the perch and bluegill away from the feed. I'm actually not convinced my perch fish on the artifical feed much due to the bass. However my pond is extremely fertile with nutrients coming in from a trout pond etc.

You could plant fatheads ahead of time but once the fatheads are depleted (won't take long) you want to be ready with feed. Even with fatheads present I would feed right away on a regular basis.

My fish is an exceptional one out of the pond but not a fluke. I caught another one over 2 lbs. and several in the 1 1/2 to almost 2 lb. range. The fish are still quite young compared to wild standards and grow faster than wild fish too. I and other didn't fish the pond that hard or often this winter, and I did remove about 30 smaller perch between 10.5 and 12 inches that were just planted last spring at about 9 inches which is on par with growth of the bigger ones when they were that age.

If you look closely at the picture this fish did not have fully developed eggs yet. They don't fully develop until late March early April and up to 20 percent of weight of a female's body can be perch eggs. Just before she dropped her eggs, if she would have lived, she could have weighed a few more ounces making a 3 lb. perch a real possiblity. I may have to electroshock the pond after ice out to remove some bass for a couple of taxidermy schools. It will be interesting to see if any bigger ones pop up, but of course they will be released.

Trainwreck - I will contact you first by email and then send you some info on raising perch in small ponds. My first email will contain some information that I put together regarding the pros and cons of female only perch in a small pond. I am supervising the stocking and mgmt of another female only perch pond this spring. We are still in the learning curve for this technique.

Before your pond construction is complete GO to the nearest MSU extension office and buy the booklet "Managing MI Ponds for Sportfishing". It discusses best depths for MI ponds.

1. What size of pond have you contracted to be built?
2. Dugout or revine with a dam pond?
3. What type of water will be used to initially fill pond and then annually replace evaporation and seepage?
4. Also try to find out how many days a year that the air temp is above 50F or 60F in your neighborhood (plant growing season). The MSU extension office will know this info. Ask them when you get your pond mgmt bok.

Trainwreck,
Just an FYI: There is a fish hatchery in MI. called Imlay City Fish Farm, 1-810-724-2185. They carry jumbo perch 3-4" and 4-7" and maybe they could be of assistance. Delivery starts April 1st, 2005. Also, they have a brochure they could send you. Good luck!!

You don't have to go with fatheads. Redbelly and finescale dace may have a better chance at long term survival. Central mudminnows might also work, there are bog lakes that have only dace, mudminnows, and YP in them. Maybe you could try a mixed bag and see which ones survive.

The pond will be approx. 3/4 acre,kind of teardrop shape,dugout in a low swampy area so it will be groundwater,rain filled.I`m trying to determine how deep to make it. The DEQ rep that came out to inspect the site reccomended 8ft but the excavator said 12 would be better.Both recommended 3 to 1 slope.

Trainwreck,

Bill will have some good info for you. I wonder who he got the idea of stocking only female perch from? :p

Deeper the better of course for long hard winters, but if cost is a factor you could get by with only 8 feet if you aerate off to the side in shallow water during the winter to eliminate the possiblity of winterkill. You could also remove snow in strips, but knowing the UP that could be a never ending process.

I personally would go with a steeper than 3:1 slope to reduce weed growth if your soil allows your banks to stay intact. My banks are at least 1:1.

BTW I'm suprised the DEQ is letting you dig in a low swampy area. I've heard nothing but horror stories about them from fish farmers in Michigan. You must have lucked out!

I think I will shoot for 1 to 1 and 12ft. My wifes only request for the pond is bullfrogs(she likes to listen to them) any compatibility problems with them?

The DEQ only seemed to be concerned with where I was dumping the spoils(had to be on an upland area)The site I`m going to build on needs approx. 3000 yards of fill to get a level area so the pond is almost free,dont have to buy the fill ,just move it.

Not that I am aware of. Not sure if there are any restrictions on planting bullfrogs in your state vs. native frogs but they are available at various fish farms.

I am convinced the biggest difficulty Cecil would have in producing a world's record Yellow Perch in a bathtub would be talking his wife into letting him leave the bathroom window open in January and February so he could ice fish.

Theo,

Good one. Just remember that bathtub is 1,000,000 gallons and it's not like fishing in a bathtub at all.

If you think it's small you should try and snowblow it sometime!

Gee whiz Just listen to you southern boys complaining about snow. I`ll still be ice fishing on april fools day up here in da UP.Thanks to all who responded here,you all are great.Much good info.

Before your contractor gets too far along get that MSU extension booklet. If the sides are not going to be compacted and just dredged and scooped out then steeper slopes than 3:1 are probably acceptable. 1:1 slope may be too steep for your soil conditions and you may get the sides caving or sloughing down into the pond. Slopes of 1:1 of a 3/4 acre pond will result in lots more dirt excavated. With steeper slopes you may have to reduce the size of the pond a little bit. If you get a lot of snow then your depth will need to be deeper than 12 ft especially if you are not able to remove snow in winter for some reason due to illness, old age or something else. Your county's US Soil Conservation Service should be aware of the MSU recommendation of proper pond depth. I would try at least for 15 ft and better if the flat bottom sloped from 12 ft to 18 ft. You are likely to have clear water (vis to 10-12 ft) and deeper water will supress rooted weed growth in clear water. Since weed eating grass carp ae illegal in MI you want to do everything possible to MINIMIZE rooted weed growth. Since you will be eating lots of fish from this pond you should minimize chemical weed control as much as possible.

Added depth will also result in more excavated dirt. Again maybe a reason for a slightly smaller pond. Your contractor may start objecting to steeper slopes and a deeper pond producing extra effort/time and dirt that he does not need or want. Deeper depth and steeper slopes may cost some extra to you. I think side slopes in your case could be variable; one or two at 3:1, one or two at 2.5:1 and one at 2:1. Steeper slopes will result in less rooted growth. I question the slope stability of 1:1 built in your soils. I think is is also a good idea to check with your local Soil Conservation service, their job is to "know the dirt" in our area. They should have soil maps of your site.

If bullfrogs are native to your area then you will have lots of them. Perch will not eat their tadpoles and thus not control their numbers. If bullfrogs are not local, you will have to stock some of their tadpoles to get them started. One or two bullfrogs calling at night are sort pleasant to hear but eight to 14 adult male bullfrogs can get real noisy during breeding season in the summer with the windows open at night and if your house is close to the pond. You will have to be almost deaf to sleep. You will see what I mean in several years. I have to sleep with windows closed at night during frog breeding season since my pond is next to the house. It sounds like a bunch of car horns blowing all night during a traffic jam. Too much of a good thing sometimes.

Bill, Thanks for all the great info. and i`ll keep you posted on the progress. I guess we`ll see on the soil conditions next week,the area around is sandy but not sure what we will find when we start digging. We both like frog legs so I guess I can adjust the volume somewhat with a gig.I have an extention office here so I will stop in monday and check on that book.I also printed out a copy of your post on perch from 5/29/2002.

Don't be suprised if you hit bedrock or ledge up there. That could alter your plans of depth in a hurry.

Rock outcrops are definately common in the eastern UP. Hopefully he has some deeper soil layers. He could get buy with an 8 ft deep pond but he would DEFINATELY have to keep snow off 20%-40% in winter.

Talked to a neighbor who said there shouldnt be any rock in that spot,all sand so i guess we will see. Well driller said same. Fingers crossed.

The main problem with a sand basin, ground water pond is getting it dug and the sides and bottom botom shaped before it fills with water. Sand sides that are steep (2:1 or even 3:1) may over time want lose their shape and somewhat slide or erode into the pond. It will be best if your contractor can find some clay in the basin for better pond building.

Bill C.,

In reference to your post of 3-5-05, 10:01 pm, you mentioned visibility of clear water (10-12 feet) and rooted plants. After my 0.10 acre puddle (80' dia) was excavated late last summer, it took about a 6 weeks for the water to "settle". Much to my surprise, I was able to see my aerator line on the bottom of the pond. After ice up this winter, I popped a hole and measured the depth to be about 8 feet.

Like everyone knows on this site, once their pond is built, they wish it was bigger and I'm no exception. I plan on draining the pond this summer to make it bigger (80' x 110') and deeper. Can you give some guidance as to what depth a clear water pond should be to eliminate light penetration to the bottom of the pond. You mentioned a depth of 15' in your post, is this a standard you go by?

Russ

Russ - You bring up a topic of minimizing weed growth with pond depth that has no easy answer nor one answer for all situations. IT ALL DEPENDS and in this case it depends on light penetration depth (water transparency) in YOUR situation.

Pond depths of 15'to 16" are standard around me (NWest OH) in limestone based soils. Very few plants grow in alkaline water around here deeper than 8'to 10'. But.....

Tiny particles in the water, usually phytoplankton, but not always, develop densities similar to fog in the air. These suspended particles disperse light and LIMIT the depth light penetrates into the water. Once light intensity decreases to about 1% of the surface intensity this is the depth where most plants do not grow. Some plants need slighty more light than 1% of surface intensity. So water clarity then determines how deep plant (rooted types, attached algae and phytoplankton) will grow in your pond. Some plant species inherently require more light for growth than others.

The depths that I mentioned in my March 05, 10:00pm post were just generalizations for typical pond depths where plants are typicially LIGHT limited in MY region. Depths were primarily educated guesses, and I used notes from the Michigan Pond Mgmt Booklet for Trainwreck's situation. In some of Michigan's nutrient poor conditions, ponds could have water visibilities down to 20 ft. However sometimes in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan brown water (tannins) is common in ponds and varying amounts of these stains puts limits on sunlight penetration. But in some situations it is sometimes not feasable, economical or sometimes not possible to dig a deep pond. Plants in very clear water situations have to be dealt with by other means than water depth.

The increased water clarity of your pond after the suspended solids settled from pond filling was a common "new pond" character. Water clarity in a new pond is usually and ultimately determined by how many nutrients and their ratios were in the fill water. Ponds almost always contain the fewest nutrients once the pond is filled. From that point in time thepond begins accumulating MORE nutrients to make it more nutrient rich - this is called eutrophication. Nutrient ratios and water hardness will determine weather phytoplankton or filamentous algae develops first in the new pond setting. Sometimes not much plant growth at all grows in a new pond which means fill water was low in most all macronutrients. However as the nutrients accumulate and collect in the pond over time then the plant growth often responds by increasing accordingly.

Your pond is behaving like some relatively low nutrient first filled ponds in my region. After initial settling, waters clear, and going into winter, during winter and for a while after ice off the water is very, very clear; visibilities down to 10' to 15ft or more. Numerous fertile ponds in my area get quite clear as ice cover approaches. After ice thaw and as water warms to 39-42F the wind starts mixing the water column and very light fluffy particles can get resuspended into the water column. Wave action on the banks can also result in suspended sediments which get mixed by the wind and weak resulting currents. Surface runoff can also contain soil clay particles that contribute to water cloudiness soon after spring- summer rain showers.

Warming waters and longer day lengths also stimulate phytoplankton and zooplankton growths. Amount of that growth depends on water fertility. Ponds frequently get more cloudy as spring conditions proceed. So expect your pond to get a little cloudier as spring progresses.

If your water stays clear, and with water visibility still quite clear down to 8 ft by Memorial Day and or 2nd wk into June then this is a sign that your pond needs to be deep to suppress rooted plant growth. You should then have depths of 18' to 22' if possible.

Typically it is hard for pond builders with bulldozers to get real deep in a real small pond due to steepness of side slopes and lack of working space in the basin. A bulldozer physically has a hard time digging and compacting a pond with slopes greater than 2:1, which means a pond has to be at about 82 ft wide to be 18 ft deep when dug with a dozer (36' wide for each side and 10 bottom width).

In the small pond, there are ways to reduce water clarity and resultant rooted plant growth in a shallower pond with perpetually clear water.

1. You can limit growth of rooted plant in very clear water by using Aquashade. The concentration of Aquashade (darkness or amount of apparent blue) affects how deep the light penetrates. So you can sort of control how deep the rooted plants and phytoplankton will grow in your pond by how concentrated the Aquashade is. Ligher doses will result in deeper plant growth.

2. In a small pond you can also decrease the water clarity by agitating the bottom sediments while running your aerator. This will mix the fine particles throughout the pond and make it cloudier. When my pond gets clear I use a Lake or Pond Rake and remove some of the rooted weed growth. This clouds the water for several days or weeks depending on amount of agitation and when the aerator is operated in relation to the raking activity.

3. You can feed the fish pellets and the added manure-nutrients will usually stimulate additional phytoplankton growth and organic particulates and or bacterial levels.

4. Stock grass carp/white amur and their nutrient laden manure from eating plants will stimulate phytoplankton -zooplankton growth.

5. If your water is clear and you desire phytoplankton growth, remember to follow the basic guidelines for fertilizing a pond; check your alkalinity concentrations. Low alkalinity levels are not conducive to growing phytoplankton. Sometimes all one needs to do is to increase the akalinity and a mild phytoplankton bloom will occur naturally if some nutrients are present.

6. If the pond is not bottom aerated and thermal stratification is in place, and the upper warm layer is very clear, the benthic water can still be somewhat light limited. A dense thin layer of suspended solids develops in a zone of the upper thermocline. This layer is very cloudy and acts as a strong light penetration barrier. Light intensity is low below this layer and plant growth can be suppressed.

I have used up a lot of space for a simple answer to you. If it was my pond in NY and soil depth and compostion was adequate then I would deepen it to 18'. Keep in mind that there is not a lot of dirt volume to be moved once you are at 15' and the bottom of a pond 80x110. This is the smallest depth contour of your pond, the bottom.

Deeping 3 extra feet should not take a lot of time or extra money due to the small amount of dirt to be moved. Extra depth in NY snowy winters will be a benefit for 1. oxygen reserves, 2. very few weeds if any should grow in 17' of water. 3. Steep sides with hard packed slopes will have a somewhat of a negating affect of growth of rooted plants. 4. Added depth will still provide good depth to the pond even after 20 - 30 years and in the presence of the always increasing accumulations of sedimented organics - muck layering which could be easily 12" to 18" thick - depending.

Bill,

Thanks for taking the time to address my question. I hesitated at first about asking the question knowing that each pond situation is unique but went ahead anyway. You touched on a few points that will give me food for thought.

Water chemistry of a new pond is one item. This pond is surrounded by woods on one side and a yard on the other. Last fall, the first for this pond, I did get a fair amount of leaves in the pond. I'm sure this will have an effect on water clarity over time, even with my bottom aerator in place.

Due to the volume of inflow/outflow of this pond, I think the use of water dyes would be a waste of money.

The contractor who will be doing the work will use an excavator as opposed to a dozer, so I don't think digging the extra depth, given the size of the pond, will be a cost burden. Like you mentioned, the extra depth will help slow the effects of sediment buildup.

Its all good stuff you talked about Bill, again my thanks!!

Russ