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#43655 03/25/03 10:38 PM
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Alright, I've got more questions (still tossing around ideas for fixing up my friend's pond).

I realize that the pure Florida largemouth will not live up here in Southern Kentucky. However, I've been reading about the F-1 bass which is a cross between the Northern largemouth and the Florida largemouth. From what I've read, it seems that it can tolerate colder temps. Do you think it would survive up here?

Here is a breakdown of my hometown's yearly average temps:

mnth high low mean

Jan 42F 24F 33F

Feb 48F 28F 38F

Mar 58F 37F 48F

Apr 68F 46F 57F

May 77F 56F 66F

Jun 85F 64F 74F

Jul 89F 68F 78F

Aug 88F 66F 77F

Sep 82F 58F 70F

Oct 71F 46F 59F

Nov 58F 38F 48F

Dec 47F 28F 37F

One more thing.....I've ordered 10 tons of lime to put in the pond (5 tons per acre). However, since I have already begun fertilization with 4 lbs./acre of 10-52-4, would I be wasting my time to put the lime in now or should I wait until fall to put the lime in the pond?

Thanks.

#43656 03/26/03 12:51 PM
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Worked on a lake in the same area and f1's are growing just fine.


Greg Grimes
www.lakework.com
#43657 03/26/03 08:58 PM
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Hey Greg, if I were wanting to introduce some F-1s into a lake, would I need to kill off the entire pond, or could I merely stock some into the existing fish population?

#43658 03/27/03 10:34 AM
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F-1's are the first cross between a Native and a Florida. They are 50% of each. When they breed, their babies will not be F-1's. If you have natives, and you add pure Florida's, (and if they last a couple of winters) the babies that the Floridas have with the natives will be F-1's. If you buy F-1's, and they breed with the natives, their babies will not be F-1's.

But adding Florida strains to your existing populations will help them. Just dont expect to continually have F1's being born.


Nick Smith
#43659 03/28/03 03:53 PM
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wwg not sure what are asking I would not drain it down for the purpose of stocking bass. Manage it right and your bass will grow. The F1's are mostly sold as fingerlings so survivial is pot luck with existing bass. Nick has a very good point if about the Florida's breeding with your pure Northerns (if that is what they are). As mentioned F1 is the first cross. After that there will be a mix of genetics. IN theory you should after the first spawn of F1's have 25 % pure Floridas, 25% pure Northerns and 50% F2 crosses.


Greg Grimes
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#43660 04/09/03 11:49 AM
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Nick & Greg,
I have been very interested in stocking F-1's also as I am in Tenn near the Ky. state line but have been concerned with the F-2's or 3's in the brood fish spawn and their spawn multiplies will I have a pond filled with far inferior bass to both native northerns as well as Floridas? Is

#43661 04/09/03 11:53 AM
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I guess as your previous post describes mixing northerns and pure fla's will have a mix of genetics. Some pure Fla, somepure northern, and some F-1's. I am worried about stocking all F-1's and what the resulting spawns will produce.

#43662 04/09/03 12:43 PM
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This is a population genetics problem. Don't think of it as adding bass think of it as adding genes to your bass population. This relationship is explained by the Hardy-Weinberg equation "F^2 + 2FN + N^2" F= the frequency of genotypes that are Florida strain N= the frequency of genotypes that are northern strain. FN= the ones that are mixed genotypes.If you had 100 pure F1s they all have half and half, all FN. The frequency of F is .5 x 100 and N is the same. And it would stay that way with out selective pressure. If you harvest only the largest fish, or if florida strain are more likely to die under ice eventualy the frequency of F goes down. Fewer and Fewer of the fish are F1s, becasue thier are fewer florida genes in the pool. Now you have 100 fish, but only a fourth of the genes are florida (the other half of the genes died) then the ratio is 6.25 pure florida strain, 37.5 F1s, and 56.25 pure northern strain. You don't have to kill off the Florida strain to get the same results, any change in genotype frequency gets similar results, and genotype frequencys are always changing because some fish are always better suited to a particular enviroment. Add the F1s, then keep all the fish that are too skiny (or whatever criteria your shooting for), eventualy the fish will evolve into the type you really want.

#43663 04/09/03 02:47 PM
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TyW,
Well what you've said makes sense. That is probably another reason why Lusk and many other fisheries biologists suggest stocking half Northerns and half Floridas and let nature take its course as they adapt to my local climate and water temp ranges. The only reason I wouldn't do this is due to being so far north (the Fla's won't survive). So the next best thing would be to stock the F-1's which according to G.Grimes(I believe) seem to do fine this far north. Like I said I'm in Tenn not Michigan. A couple of years ago I was talking to the guys at American Sportfish Hatchery in Montg,Al. and they were telling me the same thing but seeing as they were a hatchery I was looking for actual real life confirmation. Greg, if you read this didn't you say you had some cases of stocking F-1's in Tennessee and the worked out?

#43664 04/09/03 03:53 PM
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I would also like to ask anyone here for information on aestablished temperature ranges for Fla strain LMB as well as F-1's. I was curious as to whether or not they have as clearly defined temp cut off similar to threadfin shad at 42*. Thanks

#43665 04/09/03 10:02 PM
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PFD- got your email thanks here is what I do know. I did an electroshock last year in Lexington, KY. The f1's stocked two years before (from AM sportfish) were doing ok, but apparently had been much better prior to my appearance. They had stocked coppernose bluegill and had a massive dieoff over the winter. The bass were still over 100% RW but had been even fatter earlier in the spring before my analysis. The bass were losing weight b/c of the lack of bluegill forage. He stocked last year and is about to again native bluegill from the area and they are expensive.

I told you all that to say I think coppernose in middle KY and farther north may not be a good idea. However to answer your question he stocked 50 f1's/acre in a 12 acre pond and had them over 3 lbs in just under 2 years. If it was not for the coppernose kill they would still be kicking but, so yes I think you could stock them on the Tenn/KY line. PFD- Hope that made some sense, b/c I'm sleepy from driving to AM sportfish this morning at 4:30 and just now getting home.


Greg Grimes
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#43666 04/10/03 09:21 AM
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Wow, that's quite a drive. I've been by their twice in the last couple years but due to having a car load of family, was never able to stop in. I have a question for you and anyone else that might know the answer. Would it br feasible to cross coppernose with bluegill to form a sort of F-1 bluegill? I've never seen this mentioned here. I always assumed it would be similar to trying to cross shellcracker with bluegill; since they spawn at different water temps I would imagine that would be very difficult. Thank You for the info on the F-1's. I think I will try them when the time comes. After rereading "Raising Trophy Bass" last night and this morning before work I realized that the issue of F-1's losing that hybrid vigor in future generations can be minimized by adding other F-1's from outside my ponds gene pool from time to time as a methos of keeping the gene pool fresher and less likely to have as much spawning between family members. Greg, thanks for the help.

#43667 04/10/03 09:26 AM
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Oh Greg, Are you guys considering stocking gizzard in his pond or are you going to wait until the bass get a little more size on them to better keep 'em in check? It sounds like it would be the right time to add threadfins; it's a shame they can't take the cold. Oh and BTW, I can say I have honestly caught a shad on a hook but purely by accident as I was fishing Lake Fork and a school came near the boat going wild so we cast into them. Man what a slimey dude:)

#43668 04/10/03 04:10 PM
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The pondowner has not mentioned Shad to me, so no not planning on it. If he asked I would probbaly tell him not to. I'm not as confident or nearly as expereinced as Bob, so I do not stock Gizzard unless the client really wants a better than 8lb bass average. In other words I feel most clients can do wonders with threadfin shad. If too cold, manage the bluegill properly, fertilize and fed and harvest bass of the right size and number and most pondowners will be happy catching chunky 3-6 lb bass with an occasional 12 lb. basss thrown in. Make sense?


Greg Grimes
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#43669 04/10/03 04:29 PM
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It makes great sense; I just know I won't be able to not go a step further once mine are at that level. If I could afford it I would like to stock some threadfin during the 8 months of the year that our water temp is above 42* and maybe trout during the winter months. This is of course a pipe dream as it seems like it would be quite expensive especially since I will be having to restock every year but imagine the possibilities in true HAWG growth having stocked F-1's.
Frankly I'm thinking that once my bass are at the shad eating size I will stock gizzards while having at least yearly electroshock surveys done so I will know when it's time to take out some or all of the really big shad that are taking up valuable biomass.


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