Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Green sunfish making me rethink my plan, opinions

Wow, that was a lot of good info to add to this thread.




IMO, GSF are more aggressive and easier to catch when I am trying to introduce new people to fishing.

I have never seen the "slow growth" comment before though. Is that ANOTHER reason why GSF are reviled by many people?

If you stocked fingerling BG and fingerling GSF in a fertile pond at the same time, would the BG put on weight significantly faster than the GSF?

No. let me clarify that. No, not without supplemental feeding of the correct sized fish food.

That's why HBG grow faster than regular BG for the first 2-3 years. Larger mouth gape allows them to utilize more varied food sources.

Thanks esshup.

However, I am still a little bit fascinated by this question.

Can your reverse the construction of your answer?

I thought HBG grew faster mostly due to hybrid vigor. However, what you say about mouth gape must certainly be true.

In a "natural forage only" pond, presumably a large population of various sunfish fingerlings would quickly consume all of the forage that fit into the mouth gape of the BG. At that point, only the HBG and GSF would be able to keep growing by eating larger forage.

So let's flip the question and now make it a pond with supplemental feedings of pellets of the correct size.

In that case would GSF put on weight faster than the BG?

One answer to that question must assume that they were equally likely to feast on pellets. Hatcheries sell pellet-trained BG, but I have never heard of pellet-trained GSF. Even if the the GSF were genetically disposed to putting on weight faster, might the BG put on weight faster because they are "smarter" in their behavior to take pellets?

I am only asking my "inside baseball" FishinRod questions, because lots of people have come onto the forum and asked about creating a "eating sized" panfish pond (as opposed to a trophy BG pond). Some of those questions are from people with pretty small ponds and limited budgets.

I think the correct answer to that question would usually be HBG as the fastest to eating size. However, they would not reproduce well and you would probably need supplemental stockings. Any chance GSF would work almost as well for gaining weight, they would reproduce their population at a steady rate, and the pond manager could cull enough fish as to NOT require a predator?

[If anyone wishes to type a long, comprehensive answer to those questions above, maybe drop a note in this thread if you think I should start a new thread on that topic.]

Thanks, FishinRod

Hybrid vigor should allow them to grow faster. But unless a side by side test in cages was done, we will never know.

I don't think GSF would work as well as either HBG or BG because they don't get as large.

Excellent additional info, esshup.

In my limited experience, I think I have fished in farm ponds where the (non-bass) sunfish were overpopulated and stunted. In those situations, the average GSF we caught were typically larger than the average BG. Probably due to the mouth gape advantage of the GSF in an environment with limited natural forage (as was discussed above). I believe that biased sampling has strongly colored my personal perception of which sunfish is typically larger.

I then pulled some state records to get a sampling of "trophy" sizes.

-------------- KS -------------- OK
BG: -------- 2.37# -------- 2# 6 oz
HBG: ------ 2.65# -------- 2# 6 oz
GSF: ------- 2.36# ------- 2# 7 oz


The records are surprisingly close. The HBG is the biggest of the three in Kansas. The GSF is the biggest of the three in Oklahoma.

I wonder which gets up to "eating sized" the fastest? Based on the "non-experimental" anecdotal evidence I have read from Pond Boss members, I believe it is probably the HBG. That seems to match well the articles written by pond pros.


If anyone reading this has a deeper interest in HBG, I am attaching a link to an excellent thread by Bill Cody, started many years ago. It includes an excellent introduction by Bill.

It also includes identification photos and links to lots of other related BG threads. People have continued to update that thread over the years.

Excellent Hybrid Bluegill Thread

Northern Tool has surprisingly little info on HBG.

Maybe they are starting to diversify?

Hybrid Bluegill link is now fixed!

(FishinRod had attached a link to a Post Driver from Northern Tools that was from a previous dock repair thread. I hope that explains the well-deserved sniping from the peanut gallery. )

Roasted and salted, not boiled.

Initial growth of HBG is faster/larger than BG for several reasons. One is aggressiveness coupled with a larger gape (that could be viewed as hybrid vigor). Another is HBG are mostly male (a better comparison would be a male only BG pond) - that rate is closer to equal. Another reason is HBG use less energy to produce gametes/reproduction so more energy can go to growth. There are several studies on these questions.

Those are a lot of excellent points, ewest.

That is why I believe the "stock" answer of HBGs is the correct choice for stocking a small pond with the goal of quickly and efficiently moving to eating size panfish.

I was trying to speculate that if under certain very specific conditions there was a way to beat that option - but it certainly looks like a difficult option to improve upon.

Downside? The only downside I can think of is that a pond owner would be more likely to get some GSF in with a load of HBG, compared to a load of pure BG. After all, there had to be GSF in the ponds at SOME point to create the HBG.

At what length of stockers do our experts think the average pond owner could hand sort GSF out of HBG?



P.S. Lots of people worry about a few "invasive" fish sneaking through in their stockings. This thread makes me a little less worried about a few GSF in a BG heavy pond.

Thanks for all the replies. I wouldn't have an issue with the GSF if the other species were already present. My concern was with the GSF getting such a head start on everything else. The HPBG will not be available until fall. Unlike many fish, you can't order a particular size. What's available when it's your turn is what you get. I have ordered CNBG and RES as well as a few more fathead minnows from a local fish farm. I will get a reduced amount oft he HPBG in the fall. The pattern may be diluted in initial breedings, but over time as they cross back there should still be colorful individuals from time to time. I will have to base the bass stocking time and size on what the HPBG size is once they arrive. Hopefully the CNBG and RES can keep the GSF in check until then.

Sorry for expanding your thread so much. (I am one of the worst offenders. However, I really learn a lot when the forum does a deep dive on good questions, and I assume others also learn a great deal on those occasions.)

Good luck on creating your good fishery. Being in AL, I believe that as long as you keep your water quality good, then you are going to get excellent growth on your fish and will soon have enjoyable fishing for your family!

One study in Penn looked at the ability of experts (working fisheries science grads) to correctly id wild caught fish. The result was about 70% correct.

Iding GSF vs HBG is extremely hard to do for experts. I don't think avg pond owners would have much success at all even with adult fish much less juveniles. I would not bet that I could do even a 70% rate on adults - some would be obvious on both spectrum ends but near the middle is a coin flip. Even the % male HBG offspring very from 98% male to 66% male in studies probably due to GSF populations DNA being corrupted.

HBG - GSF threads

HBG pic/question - Pond Boss Forum - https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256047&page=1

an el dorado sunfish pond - Pond Boss Forum - https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24426&page=1

managing for trophy GSF - Pond Boss Forum - https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=102096&page=1

That is a terrible number. I think you may have previously posted that stat in an Identification thread. I believe that is what made me ask about the "average pond owner".

Can I therefore conclude that your best advice would be: Buy your HBG from a reputable supplier! ?

Yes and ask about the crossing process and genetics. Their best use IMO is in a put and take fishery with CC and HSB with feeding.

In the case of my pond, there are no LMB to control the GSF or BG/HBG.
They directly compete with the SMB bass for groceries. The BG just make too many babies for SMB to keep up.

SMB can control HBG and possibly GSF. Maybe add a few HSB to help with GSF.

My HSB are spoiled rotten brats. They make their living on crayfish and pellets.

I've butchered 13 of the 20 that I originally stocked. Not one of them had a sunfish in its gut.

But they will jump all over a 3" BG that's on a hook at the end of my fishing line.

I wonder if you could "BG train" your HSB to supplement their pellet training?

Set some traps to collect BG. Tail/fin clip them and throw them in the pond at the feeder location just prior to the timer going off. Maybe you can train the HSB to add more BG into their diet (beyond the clipped ones).

If your HSB are in the pond partially for BG control, at least make the spoiled brats do a little bit of their chores!

I’ve said this for over 20 years. A green sunfish is a lot more fun to catch than a bluegill. I have both and and can tell the difference immediately.

DD1,

I am still waiting for you to develop a GSF/carp hybrid.

Can you imagine the fun when a kid hooks up with a 9# version of one of those!

I'm done fooling with them. Decided to catch em out and eat em. Hoping to get some saugeye from Snipe to assist with the BG control.

I remember a lot of hopeful threads where HSB would control the BG, not reproduce in the ponds (so you had great control of predator numbers), and still grown larger than LMB in northerly ponds.

The perfect fish has not been invented ... yet!

Quite a ways back in this conversation, mention was made by at least ewest, esshup, and FishinRod concerning the relative sizes and growth rates among BG, HBG, and GSF.
Let me share observations of mine from our pond and from a friend's pond.
I hand feed Optimal BG once, twice, three times a day depending when the opportunities present themselves. Fish always show up.
BG are most numerous, all sizes, GSF next, the HBG, naturally occurring, the least common. The most common large individuals are GSF; several at 9" to 11" prowl around for pellets and gulp down the occasional cluster of large dried meal worms, preferring the Optimal. The BG rarely take, let alone swallow a pellet of any size. They want broken up meal worms. The HBG grab either, seemingly also preferring the Optimal.
The increased aggression while feeding is obvious, shared by the GSF and HBG, compared to the tea sipping habits of the BG.
Here are some questions, probably hypothetical, about growth and relative size. If the sunfish species that eagerly eat pellets are growing faster than the BG, could it be because they are more aggressive and have wider gapes, allowing them to chose the bigger, denser meals, that is, Optimal pellets?
My other limited observation is from fishing a friend's effectively GSF only pond a few times. There, the range of fish sizes that I've caught runs from the tiniest up through about 8". There may well be larger individuals; the others are so numerous that fishing with two or three hooks yields 2 GSF or 3 GSF on nearly every cast. It's easy to get enough fish for a big meal in 20 minutes, or less.
As and aside, we introduced 21 LMB to the pond several years ago. They must be in heaven. I haven't been back to give the fishing a try since that introduction of Lucky Largemouths.