Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?

My new 1/4 pond currently under construction, longtime dream of mine. 13.5 acre property, mostly wooded, no other water source (just lots of rain.) Current plan is to not stock till fall. Right now I'm studying PB threads relating to all things related, watching YT videos on the subject, etc. etc. So much to learn, not in a hurry, just want to enjoy the process. I've read that "the best fishing pond and the best swimming pond cannot co-exist," and that's fine. What I want is a "good" fishing pond (not focused on developing lunkers), and a fun swimming hole that visiting family/kids will enjoy. In other words: the best compromise I can achieve that hopefully will have reasonable mgmt. demands. Prefer to avoid feeding, so my goal is as close to self-sustaining as possible, understanding that periodic stocking will almost certainly be necessary.

(note: I have access on the property to unlimited structure: logs, boulders, large slabs of rock, etc.) I would appreciate any advice/guidance that all of you far more experienced pond owners can share with me, particularly on establishing a healthy food chain/ecosystem.

What is your plan for fish to stock?

I would put the foundation of my food chain in the pond as soon possible.

Congratulations on the project!!

Why do you feel you'd rather not have a feeding program? Of course, it's your decision, but feeding is a very, very enjoyable experience, and the things you can do with a 1/4 acre pond are quite vast.

So far, based on what I've been reading, I'm looking at basically FHM, GS, BG, RES, HSB, LMB, TGC. I'm figuring on stocking w/Jones Pond/Lake Mgmt., which features many options. For example, the "Angler's Choice Fingerling Package includes CC, which I've been advised against....also someone already also advised me not to put in the GC unless I develop a weed issue. Anyway, that's what I'm looking at, but happy to listen to all opinions. And, I read that BG can be big nippers in the water, and I'd rather minimize that seeing as how I want to make it swimmer-friendly. fwiw: I swam in lakes over the years, never experienced any such issue, but those were usually bigger lakes, not a pond. But aggressive nippers IS a consideration.

I'm not dead set against it by any means. I've been told it involves somewhat of a "commitment," that I have to "train the fish" to an extent, and I really like the idea of a pond "following nature" as much as possible; in other words, predator/prey in balance. Happy to listen to any thoughts on this. Here to learn.

Oh, and how do I set PB forum to automatically notify me of any responses? Didn't see a setting anywhere.....

I think you can have swimming and fishing, that is what we did with our third pond.
For swimming I wouldn't ad BG at all, YP may be a better choice, catfish dirty the water also and are super predators. Stone or small rip/rap around edge will help keep water cleaner for swimming.
Starting with a good forage base like FHM, GSH, YP, RES first to get them spawning will help. I wasn't wanting to feed when we first dug our swimming pond either but it is really enjoyable. We hand feed off the dock most mornings and evenings during the warm months and it is a hoot to see them come up.

Nick, there should be a a button or box to check when you first start a thread, I think, where you can select a notification, but I've never tried it, so I really don't know. I do think there's a way to do it in your profile also.

I've never experienced the 'nibbling' of fish when swimming, but many others have and don't like it. I don't spend a ton of time swimming in my pond(s) either.

These are general comments, but can certainly vary greatly:

-to have a healthy fish population, without a feed program, your top species of desired fish will need a good supply of natural forage. As you mentioned having HSB and LMB, etc., the base forage for the LMB to be healthy is bluegill. And, the bluegill need to be in heavy enough density to provide regular forage for the LMB, and other predators.

-my guess is there's more nipping in ponds where the bluegill population is more dense.

-the more dense the fish population is, overall, the more you may need to watch water quality and maybe need aeration.

-you could start with lower initial stocking numbers of both bluegill, and predators, but in year two, and some successful spawns, you may be back at looking at a fish density that is more at risk for nipping when swimming.

-for the best fish growth results, and without a feed program, conventional wisdom says to stock forage now and in the next few months, and let that all grow for a year if you can, but at least, wait on predator stocking until Fall '24; if you couldn't wait, go very low in quantity.

-feed very much supplements the natural forage base, and the more you feed, the more you can maybe almost replace the forage base. Of course, when using feed, things are kind of sim-world (unreal!!). But this is where the human factor comes in. Watching 4, 5, and 6lb+ HSB and LMB charging for 1" pellets is awesome fun. And you really get to see the fish quite a bit.

-water quality should be monitored no matter what route you go.

Those sound like good suggestions. I've been told it's better to get the forage community established and going strong, and THEN put in the LMB.

What I read is that RES much less aggressive, don't know much about YP but seems they're more mellow too....yes? And supposedly they're very willing to take a hook, so they sound like a good way to go. Yeah, CC's I've been told are not only major predators- lots of competition for the LMB that I don't need- but that they'll mess things up in general. The biologist at Jones said if I really like eating cats, fine, but otherwise leave them off.

The feeding sounds fun, but I'm thinking if I start with that, then the fish will heavily depend on that, am I right? Again, my thinking is to try to keep things as "natural" as possible.

Nope, the fish won't depend on the food. They WILL eat it, just like if someone puts Ice Cream in front of you, you will eat it, but you don't depend on Ice Cream for all your meals. It's supplemental feeding in a pond that has forage fish in it vs. the only thing that they will eat like if they were in a raceway or in an aquaculture setting only with fish their own size that they cannot eat.

BJNick - Yes feeding does create a fishery that depends on regular feeding to maintain the same quality of fish present. Lack of food does stress the fish. You can raise some big fish by not pellet feeding. It is just you won't have as many fish present because lack of total food present in the system. Numbers present, actually pounds of fish, will probably be 3X to 6X less fish when on all natural foods than when fed pellets. Feeding basically turns the pond into an animal feed lot. More food means growing more animals. .

As noted a pond without feeding and to have a high quality of fish present, the populations (numbers of fish) present have to be fewer so all those present have ample or enough food for growth. The more food they have the better they grow. In other words, The more food each one has the better each one grows. Slow growing fish are telling you "we are not getting enough to eat" or possibly or probably the fish are too crowded thus too many "hogs feeding at the trough". Managing animals those with fur or scales is all about numbers control.

Without pellet feeding and to have the best fishery in a small 1/4 ac pond HERE is what I would do based on your stated goals for the start.
1. Change some of the beginning fish species. Continue to use the basic forage FHM & GSH. At least for the first few years - OMIT BG and substitute Jones' specklebelly (SBS). These are a very low reproducing hybrid sunfish of BG X Redear. These SBS do not have any of the aggressive bitter tendency as regular hybrid bluegill (HBG) from the green sunfish parent. Better population control.

2. OMIT LMB and start with just HSB. I am surprised that the 'biologist' from Jones did not advise you differently based on your goals and knowledge of fish and what fish they sell.

3. My plan gives ample forage fish FHM & GSH, reduces the chances of getting too many BG bitters with having too many BG over eating the food source and wanting to bite swimmers in a small pond. HSB will not reproduce as do LMB who over populate and eat too much forage. With non reproducing HSB you control the numbers of predators by removing or adding. There will not be a LMB overpopulation and a lack of predator growth.

4. With my plan if you don't like the results of the fish stocked then after several years just add your normal reproducing fish of BG, LMB and maybe perch. Then eventually those prolific species will dominate the pond and very likely eliminate the FHM & GSH to where you are needing to annually buy minnows from Jones. IMO Jones has an annual business and income to protect.

5. If you like my idea for stocking,,,,, return and I will look up Jones' numbers to stock and make new suggestions. Timing of the stocking may vary based on more of your information. An additional option would be to stock a few only female yellow perch(YP) . However you will not get them from Jones.

6. Where do you live in OH? Is buffalo valley a town? There may be a better place driving distance to get your fish. Sometimes a day trip with the kids can be a good quality time adventure.

Bill:

To throw a monkey wrench into the mix, how does the pounds of fish change in a pond that is dyed vs. one that isn't dyed? (Fed or unfed, just comparing apples to apples with just the dye as the variable).

Thanks for all this great info, Bill. Much appreciated. It's all part of my learning process. I guess the overall message to me, is that I don't need to get everything perfect right away, that it might take a few years for me to get everything the way I want it. And, I can always make adjustments if things don't work out.

As far as the specific advice:

1) sounds great....SBS for sure seem like a great option.

2) The person I spoke with is definitely an aquatic biologist, says I can omit/add any fish they sell to an order, happy to adjust. I think they suggest LMB because pretty much everybody uses that paradigm of LMB / BG etc. Seems most people want to develop lunker LMB, so they cater to that. But your point is well taken that a profit motive is involved- I wouldn't blame them for that, of course. I just need to be aware of it.

3) makes perfect sense. However, the idea of the fish reproducing is really fascinating to me, something I'd love to see. But as you explain, there are drawbacks for sure.

4) want a swimming pond, so no BG. YP sound like great option, however not legal in Tennessee for stocking. If you have suggestions for acquiring them, that would be great.

5) I would LOVE to see your revised order suggestions!

6) I am in Middle Tennessee, not Ohio. About an hour east of Nashville.

Thanks again for taking the time for such a detailed message.

BJ Nick, FWIW, I have been nipped (and hard) by Hybrid Bluegills too.

The thing about LMB is that once they are added, it's almost impossible to fish them out of a pond if they pull off a spawn.

Lake Dartmoor in Cumberland County has Yellow Perch in it. Parksville Lake held the state record for them in 2010. Ocoee Number 3 had the new state record in 2019....

So they ARE in Tenn. Now I cannot answer the question that is coming. "Why does Tennessee certify a Yellow Perch as a state record if you cannot stock them in a private pond?" You may have to call the TWRA to ask that question.

BUT, if you want to catch some there, you better get moving. The best time to catch them in Tenn is the end of Feb, the 1st week in March.........

Aiming for a self-sustaining ecosystem is a good plan. Diversity in habitat and keeping an eye on species balance will be important.

Working on a lengthy answer for dye use and stocking.

Thanks Bill. I was told by a person that you and I both know that a pond with dye (even though it's fed) can only support 25% of the fish that a non-dyed pond can. I know differently, but I think this person needs to hear it from someone else too.

Firstly I looked at Jones’ website. They now heavily promote their long time in the business and numerous trained staff. I am not doubting their credentials. There are biologists and then there are BIOLOGISTS. Taking a biology class or some training does not make you a biologist. I have my own credentials. MS degree in aquatic biology specializing in algal identification for 50 yrs. Technically I am an algologist (phycology, phycologist). Algae analyses are my main form of income working with Universities, consulting firms, corporations and municipalities. I have authored and co-authored numerous related publications. As my part time interest I’ve worked with local clients managing ponds for 40 yrs. I specialize in natural holistic pond management and my pond clients and others call me The Pond Doctor. Bob Lusk calls me a microbiologist. I bought my first HSB in the early 1980’s from Rob Jones. I’ve been in this business longer than anyone at Jones Lake Management. I’m not bragging, just letting you know who you are getting advice from just as Jones does with their website. IMO you will get better less biased management advice here at Pond Boss compared to that at Jones who are in the business to sell their pond stuff as are all pond companies and fish farms.

To esshup’s comment question - “throw a monkey wrench into the mix, how does the pounds of fish change in a pond that is dyed vs. one that isn't dyed?”
Pond dye does what it is supposed to do in most cases; but not all – it reduces plants including ‘most’ algae susceptible to light filtering. Plants and algae especially the planktonic forms are the basis for biological production in a pond. It is the ‘grass’ that feeds the system. Suppressed plant growth means overall suppressed fish productivity. Dye can be at low or high concentration depending on dosage. It is relative The darker the water stain the less fish poundage (carrying capacity) that will be produced / supported. Pond dye can actually encourage and select for problematic and difficult to control algae. This is dependent on pond conditions, nutrient basis and amount of dye used. It is somewhat similar to over usage of antibiotics and the resistance it creates for humans.

An all natural based fish pond will make for a cleaner swimming water feature. Adding nutrients of any form always adds a stimulus for more plant growth as plankton, attached algae and/or rooted plants. Note the nutrient based soil and fill water does have its own inherent nutrient basis that does work its way into the pond to give the pond its basic initial trophic (nutrient) condition. The Alkalinity concentration of the soil (lime) and as it influences the water, allows nutrients to more effectively stimulate plant growth.


Back to your pond fish.

Your ¼ ac pond especially if dye is used will not grow very many fish pounds i.e. less carrying capacity. Now if dye is used, the dye reduces the food chain which it is designed to do – to reduce the forms of plants that are the pond’s food basis for fish production. My experience or estimate is dye at label recommendations reduces the total fish poundage that a pond can produce to about ½. This is where esshup is going with his comment. Feeding the larger fish pellets compensates for lack of plants and if you add pellets then the added pellet food then grows fish. This becomes a double, sharp, edged sword. REMEMBER adding any organics to the pond from tree leaves, animal waste (bird poop), land runoff or fish food that are ALL forms of organics to increase the pond’s nutrient load. Annual Nutrient accumulation causes more plants of some form or another to grow. Plant herbicides just kill the growth temporarily and do not reduce nutrients. Dead plant decay then recycles those plant bound nutrients. It is a natural cycle, growth - death - decay - regrowth. Pond aging is the result. Nutrient accumulation is the cause of the pond aging process – more nutrients are always wanting to grow more plants that live grow and die to make more bottom muck / sludge and thus it fills in the basin. These nutrient stimulated plant growths could be some of the problem algae that are unaffected by using pond dye. No matter what you do to your pond Nature has something that will eventually grow there and you may not like it due to the new conditions they present.

Pond Capacity
Your ¼ ac pond without dye with all natural food production IMO will likely grow around 60 total pounds of fish. Using blue dye and no added forms of fish food,,,, the ¼ ac will be lucky to have a total of 30 total lbs of fish. This is especially true if the water is clear as in visibilities of 4 to 7ft. Clear water is a sign that nutrients in the water column are present in a low amount. Dye used with fish pellet food and bottom aeration used then maybe(?) you could get 80-100 total pounds of fish in the 1/4ac. You are the manager and controller. With just 30 to 60 lbs of fish in ¼ ac is why I highly suggested using mostly the sport fish that do not reproduce. Thus the pond will grow and support fewer LARGER fish who are growing on the pond’s limited amounts of food rather than having lots of smaller fish reproducing with total numbers equaling your pond’s total fish poundage.
OR - with stocking Jones’ plan of more fish and their recommendation of bi-annually adding minnows (adds more nutrient based food into the system) to keep the suggested reproducing fish growing. Adding minnows is not much different than adding fish food. – both are nutrient based additions to the pond. Again both enhancing the nutrient basis enhancing the aging of the pond.

This is Jones stocking plan for ¼ ac. FHM 10 lbs, GSH 5 lbs, LMB 30, HSB 15, BG 100, HYBG 50, RES 50, CC 50 GC 2. Sport fish number is 30,15,100,50,50,50 = 295fish. In general, if all live is 295/960oz(60 lbs) = 3.2 oz each as the total carrying capacity. The all natural food produced in a ¼ac pond does not grow enough food to feed all those fish for them to achieve decent sizes. Plus the fishery is adding many new fish each year due to numerous fish reproducing.

When using my plan you can always later switch to some form of the Jones plan. However once you add normal reproducing sport fish there is no way to get them back out when they are a problem or are unwanted unless you totally renovate the pond which Jones can gladly do for you.

Stocking numbers. Your management plan (dye, no dye, pellets, no pellets) will determine how many fish to stock for producing 30 to 60 lbs of carrying capacity of fish. Planning now for what fish to use and what sizes to hopefully be present to compose the carrying capacity is how you go about finding what and how many to stock. Of course this assumes all their stocked fish do survive after stocking for which ever plan you use. A big IF.

Normally for a balanced predator:prey ratio plan for predators,,,,, the HSB (predators) will be close 15% (0.15) of the carrying capacity weight when the predators are relying on all natural food production. I will use 60 lbs as your final fish weight in an all natural ¼ ac pond. 60 lbs X 0 .15 = 9 pounds of HSB each at one lb (12”-13”). This can be 9 to 12 one pound fish or three or 4 HSB each weighing around 3 lbs. In this plan, I would stock 9 to 12 HSB, 20-30 specklebelly(SBS) and some FHM/GSH. Actually if the stocking includes specklebelly who have very limited reproduction, it would be best to have the HSB to always remain at the smaller 1 lb sizes to more effectively control most all the offspring as young small fish produced by the few specklebelly females present in a normal stocking allotment. Specklybelly (SBS) allotments typically are around 90%-95% male fish. Note – I think Jones does not continuously have SBS. Often they are sold out especially when order is placed too late.

OR for another optional plan,,,,,, stock just 20-25 HSB and only FHM/GSH you could probably soon have around 20 to 30 one pound HSB. That many HSB as aggressive fish could easily and quickly (1-2yrs) eliminate all the FHM & GSH. Thus no HSB growth. Feed them pellets and they could after several years each of the HSB could weigh close to 2 to 4 lbs. Appropriate food of any sort grows fish. Lack of enough food = no growth. Remember when using HSB is it best to “ladder stock” some every few years to maintain a few smaller predators to better consume small new specklebelly sunfish that survive the fry /fingerling stage to be one yr old fish. As the pond ages angling and some natural fish mortality will occur to where the HSB are fewer number. As I note below you may find that the HSB,SBS minnow fishery balance best works in your small pond with only a few (just 2 to 5) HSB in the pond. Periodic ladder stocking of HSB helps keep the pond fishery in a better balance of prey – predator. HSB fight extremely hard and when caught in mid summer’s warm water they are known to die of sheer exhaustion. Smaller HSB are the best sizes for controlling the limited numbers of small sizes of specklebelly sunfish.

After a couple years, my guess is it will not take very many HSB to control the reproduction of SBS and still have some annual production of FHM/GSH. I am thinking that it would take only 2-4 HSB in the pond who are able to grow by eating the small SBS and some minnows. Always be watchful of the numbers of small SBS and numbers of FHM/GSH and then add or remove HSB so you always have some annual natural reproduction of FHM/GSH and do not have to regularly buy minnows. When minnow numbers are noticeably low the pond has too many predators; remove some HSB. IMO you always want enough minnows present to keep the HSB staying at a good body weight and size even if this size stays constant. No or too few FHM/GSH means too many predators – remove some HSB until some minnows are always present. Adding some dense big areas of habitat for minnow refuge hiding areas in the back end of the pond will help small fish survive predation for a longer period of time. IMO use types of habitat that can be relatively added or removed based on the numbers of small fish that you want to be present. More dense habitat = more minnow survival.
Examples of types of habitat to add
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92463#Post92463

MINNOW FORAGE
For your minnow stocking this can be done two of several ways. Stock as Jones suggests FHM 10lbs & 5 lbs GSH. They say stock all fish at once. This allows for immediate and quick consumption of the initial stocking of minnows. This is a profit maker for fish sellers.
If it was my pond, and usually suggested here on the PB Forum, I would in Spring first stock minnows as 2-3 lbs FHM and 1 pound GSH. Allow them to reproduce all summer that can often result in a total minnow production of close to 40 lbs of minnows in your small 1/4ac. And then in fall,,, stock the HSB and specklebelly. OR another very good option is first add 2-3 lbs FHM & 1 lb GSH and all the 20-30 specklebelly. Specklebelly will grow 2X to 4X by fall. Then in fall 2024 or spring of 2025 stock the 9-12 HSB. HSB sometimes have poor survival when stocked depending on when stocked and their prior handling conditions. Lots and lots of the all prior summer long minnow production as a pond FULL of small forage allows the HSB to grow from ( 5”-7” as 2 oz) in May 2025 to 12”-15” in just one year (one pounders!!).

Yellow Perch Option
YP --- you will not get all female YP from Jones. To my knowledge they do not do that form of selling YP. IMO for what esshup suggests, you will have difficulty gathering TN lake caught female YP as this requires some significant effort and fish sexing knowledge. These are not techniques for the average pond owner. As an option as law changes you can add some mixed sex YP from Jones or add male/female YP later in the pond history. HSB when maintained as suggested numbers will effectively control reproducing YP populations. NOTE – The SBS will each year produce some young of year, thus you will get your chance to have some fish reproducing that “is really fascinating to you”. You will also have some annual FHM/GSH reproduction to watch for and manage. Keeping my reduced stocking plan SUCCESSFUL with a good fish balance in your ¼ ac pond will be plenty of a pond management challenge for you without having numerous fish species reproducing to try and juggle to maintain a good balance for a swimming recreational pond.

Keep us informed as to how the pond progresses with whatever stocking plan you use. We here at the PB Forum are always wanting to learn more about what happens with ponds of our PB members.

Nick, I’ve played this game for a long time. My observations

1. A balanced pond generally lasts from 15 minutes to 2 weeks. Then reality slaps you.
2. This stuff can be additive.
3. Don’t lie to your wife about the expenses. You’re gonna get caught.
4. Concentrate on water quality and prey fish and the big predators will be fine.

I’ve been through Idaho several times. Beautiful country and it is pulling on me to come back. I once spent most of a day trying to get a shot at a bull elk whose IQ was greater than mine.

Welcome to Pond Boss. Pretty good bunch of guys here.

Just to add to what Bill said, unfortunately due to transportation expenses, you will most likely be buying fish that are bagged at the hatchery and bringing them to the pond. Try to do this in cool weather/cool water. The rate of fish survival will be greater then. You will have to balance acclimating the fish to the same water temp with making sure that they have enough O2 (and minimizing ammonia build up) in the bag while they are acclimating.

Typically you want to have the water temp as close to possible as what's in the bag, no more than 5°F max difference.

Golden Shiners spawn in shallow water and broadcast their eggs over fine grassy habitat. Fathead Minnows spawn on the underside of things in shallow water. So stacked pallets or large (10"-12" dia) rip rap will both give them spawning habitat.

Cody Note: any flat structures under water at most all depths less than 4 ft will allow FHM to set up a nest for spawning. Flat pieces do not have to be big as FHM are territorial when defending a small area around the nest site. I've seen FHM set up a nest in 4 sq in areas (2x2). Be creative when adding habitat structures. As noted above dense brushy type habitat near nest sites provide the fry some refuge areas. Add or remove habitat and predators as needed to maintain the proper balance of minnow and predator.

Dave- haha excellent suggestions. I'm single, so it will be a case of lying to myself about expenses. :-) Yeah, I can believe this stuff gets addictive....I'm already seeing that. And thanks for mentioning Idaho, which told me I needed to amend my profile: I'm in middle Tennessee, about an hour east of Nashville. Almost did choose Idaho to move to, but settled on TN because I love lots of rain rather than tons of snow. And I already see that this is a very helpful community of guys who like helping each other. I definitely look forward to being part of it, as my new pond takes shape and goes through the "reality" you speak of. Outside my office window right now are the excavator, mini-ex and truck hauling boulders, as the pond takes shape. Exciting process for sure.

Great stuff, Bill- I'll respond shortly as I have some follow-up questions on all this really important wisdom. I appreciate your taking the time to be so detailed....answers questions while raising new ones at the same time....I'm guessing that's pretty typical. :-)

Since you are single, please take all previous fish stocking recommendations and increase by 2x!

I believe the same formula also works for adding structure, building docks, etc.

Well said Rod

Haha....expert advice noted!