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#563625 01/16/24 08:33 PM
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Here in Arkansas we have had a week of single digit temps and pond is completely iced over. May not be anything I can do about it but curious if anyone on here has any input on this. I have 4500 Copper nose bluegill and a few bass and some native mud cats on 3 -1/2 acres 15ft deep at the dam and around 7' deep for 2 acres and the rest 5' to 2'. There is some water flowing thru so hoping that is keeping it aeriated. I've read where CNBG are not as tolerant to cold as BG but when stocking I was told they would be fine in this zone. What is everyone's thoughts on this, do you see me having a fish kill? Do I need to rethink what I stock? I was planning on adding LMB this spring along with aeration and spawning areas with erosion mats and gravel. Don't think I got a real good spawn this spring, saw some beds with males actively guarding but never saw the fry.
Thanks Wayne

ArkieJig #563626 01/16/24 09:38 PM
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IMO coppernose(CNBG) will not like the cold temps of ice cover at least for not very long. Probably a lot of their ice cover survival rate will highly depend on where and what fish farm you bought those CNBG. There was a discussion here about a fishery that had /sells cold tolerant CNBG. Some flowing stream water could be a positive or negative for the CNBG cold survival. My testing shows moving stream water in very cold conditions will actually be colder than 39F pond water. I've measured moving water in winter to be 32F-33F in streams .I will contact one of the members for comment where he bought some of these cold tolerant CNBG for a test survival study in northern Indiana. This type of cold winter in IN should be a good test for these "cold tolerant" CNBG.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/16/24 09:43 PM.

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Bill Cody #563627 01/16/24 10:03 PM
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That'd be me. I got them from Harbin Fish Farm in Wetumka, OK, they brought them down from their facility in Kansas. I put them in a small 1/20th acre pond the Fall of 2022. They survived that winter and they are still in there. I will seine the pond this Spring and report back. I had a fish kill this summer - my fault. I put too much dye in the pond and a bunch of vegetation died. Not sure how many of the CNBG died, I did a cursory seine last Fall and still had some in there, but it was too dang cold to run the seine again.

I put some in my personal pond, but I never really fished it for bluegills in the last 2 years.

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ArkieJig #563628 01/16/24 10:13 PM
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ArkieJig, you are South and West of most of the fish farms. They typically have some dead loss when they get iced over but their ponds are only 1/2 the depth yours are. I'll call them tomorrow and see how they are faring (in the Lonoke area). I need to talk to them anyway.


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ArkieJig #563629 01/16/24 11:52 PM
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On the subject of cold-hardy CNBG... We stocked 600 3-5" from the same supplier 4-1/2 years ago that esshup obtained his fish from.
They have done extremely well 30 miles east of me. Impoundment is a community pond I assisted with the build and seal, with a max depth of 12' and very little flow-through, has a low acreage water shed and the fall of 22 we stocked 70 SAE to help control the numbers as we have SMB as a main predator and we all know they won't control BG reproduction.
All year classes were/are well represented with numerous fish from 4-9" and scads of 1-3".
It's been in a very harsh region and I have to say I am surprised at the survival.

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ArkieJig #563634 01/17/24 10:19 AM
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Snipe,

The pond you describe should have had a tough time with the recent drought.

How low did that pond get?

Have you done enough recent sampling to determine how well the fish survived/thrived in a CNBG, SMB, SAE pond?

That sounds like an awesome fish population if they can handle the cold of your area AND the summer heat and low water conditions!

ArkieJig #563640 01/17/24 01:07 PM
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Level at lowest point was only 13.5" low during last summer. There is a small drainage into the pond on one side that collects some street run-off so it's never been more than maybe 16" low from full.
We electrofish early summer and fyke net every fall, being a KS CFAP impoundment, it gets regular sampling.

Last edited by Snipe; 01/17/24 01:08 PM.
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ArkieJig #563642 01/17/24 02:16 PM
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Thanks esshup, I got my CNBG from a farm in Lonake. What did you think about my spawning question, the pond bottom is sandy loom and most of the spawning I observed was around the large rocks on the inlet spillway. Never saw any fry and don't have enough shoreline structure to hide them. Should I be able to see the fry on the bed when being guarded by the male? During the drought this year my pond dropped close to 3ft. Even at that I probably still had 80% of the pond under water. The banks are sloped pretty steep and I tried to hold the upper end between 4 and 5ft. I was still seeing a few small fish in the upper end but all the larger CNBG left out. I did not have any fish kills during that time other than one shiner I found floating and figured it had been hit by a bass or something else.

ArkieJig #563644 01/17/24 03:12 PM
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Augie, I've never seen fry on a bed, once they hatch they get out of the area. The steep sloped banks will reduce the amount of area that is available for spawning beds. I have observed all types of panfish using pea gravel bedding areas, even SMB when there was no suitable spawning habitat for the SMB in the pond.

I'd try to make pea gravel spawning areas in your pond go from 6' water depth to 1' water depth at full pool to cover all pond water levels during spawning season.


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ArkieJig #563646 01/17/24 04:12 PM
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Last edited by ewest; 01/17/24 04:14 PM.















ArkieJig #563728 01/22/24 09:40 AM
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We had Ponds iced over at Overton Fisheries and the OTS Coppernose are fine. Coppernose are more cold tolerant than folks give them credit for IMO

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ArkieJig #563731 01/22/24 03:20 PM
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It's not just - did the CNBG survive the ice over. It is that over the longer term southern genetic fish (Fla LMB and CNBG) do not meet their potential when subjected to a cold (northern) environment. Long term stressors (environment either too hot or too cold for the genetics) result in less than optimum results.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/23/24 02:02 PM. Reason: underlined importance















ArkieJig #563740 01/22/24 11:01 PM
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ewest, I agree with this because my 5" NBG are now at 11+, but my 5" CNBG are around the 9" mark, maybe had 1 close to 10" max.. they have not grown at the same rate.
I purposely stocked 25 male BG the same week I stocked the CNBG.

Last edited by Snipe; 01/22/24 11:03 PM.
ArkieJig #563750 01/23/24 11:47 AM
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Snipe,

Would you consider your results a decent comparative study?

If so, would you think the latitude of a pond in the U.S. would be a good first order predictor of whether NBG or CNBG would thrive better in a given pond?

I believe you are north of that line.

Any Pond Boss members that have raised both types of BG at their pond want to estimate the line of latitude for selecting the optimal BG subspecies?

ArkieJig #563753 01/23/24 01:15 PM
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It is on the Forum in many threads. My estimation is I-40 +- subject to changes in altitude (App Mts and Rky Mts for example)
















ewest #563757 01/23/24 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ewest
It is on the Forum in many threads. My estimation is I-40 +- subject to changes in altitude (App Mts and Rky Mts for example)

Thanks ewest!

I thought the previous discussions had placed it at roughly that level, but had read more threads recently with CNBG north of that line.

Wasn't sure if the cold tolerance of some CNBG stock had recently improved, or if my memory was faulty! (The latter case is my usual default setting.)

ArkieJig #563758 01/23/24 03:16 PM
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Northern States with an 8 month winter sure, Agreed. In regards to the post above though, week or two cold snaps aren't going to reduce growth potential in Coppernose Bluegill or Florida Bass. These past posts are also coming from the same folks that were saying we were going to lose the vast majority of Florida Bass and Coppernose Bluegill during the 2021 Freeze. We got to -3 but the half a million or so coppernose we stocked that spring disagree, I can show you hundreds of examples of those fish over 1.2-1.5lb right now. As far as those "Cold Tolerant Coppernose" They sure look like the offspring of Overton OTS CNBG Brood-stock. wink

Last edited by emactxag; 01/23/24 03:18 PM.
ArkieJig #563761 01/23/24 03:59 PM
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Thanks for the further clarification, emactxag!

I tend to clutter up some threads with tangentially related questions to the original post.

I wanted more info on Snipe's experiment since he is clear up by I-70.

I believe February 2021 was the coldest temperatures in Texas for quite some time. I do NOT recall any reports of large fish kills from our southern members due to that cold air intrusion onto their ponds with warm-adapted fish.

It appears to me (non-expert) that a cold 3" rain event is a much bigger thermal shock to a pond, than a mid-winter cold snap.

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ArkieJig #563773 01/24/24 12:35 PM
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We are 15-20 miles north of I-40. CNBG do fine for us. Altitude is roughly 1250 feet.

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FishinRod #563774 01/24/24 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FishinRod
Snipe,

Would you consider your results a decent comparative study?

If so, would you think the latitude of a pond in the U.S. would be a good first order predictor of whether NBG or CNBG would thrive better in a given pond?

I believe you are north of that line.

Any Pond Boss members that have raised both types of BG at their pond want to estimate the line of latitude for selecting the optimal BG subspecies?
I don't know that I've raised enough in my own pond Rod, but have stocked many of Harbin's (Mark) from the Wichita location and they survive but don't prosper as well as the northern strain here. Mark told me they had moved these from their OK region up into his location over a 19yr period as of 2019 when I stocked my own.
As for a "line" where they do or don't do well, I think it's best explained similar to our plant growth zones, some do best 9-10, others do best 2-3, everything else is a factor somewhere in between based on growing season length and average water temps. I believe it's highly probable that the forage items follow the same lines in a similar fashion.

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ArkieJig #563775 01/24/24 01:29 PM
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Lots of prior discussion on adaptation vs genetics. Consensus on CNBG is that some 30 +- years ago CNBG were brought from Fla to the Arkansas hatcheries. Over many generations adaptation has occurred and those CNBG have a higher degree of cold tolerance. IIRC George had both Ark CNBG and some from Overton. We tried to id and separate them.

See this re OTS CNBG -

https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428462&page=3

One Nice Coppernose -

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=286755&page=1


CNBG variation Fla vs Ark -
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177215&page=1

ots club
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=330400&page=1

helment dev � great pics including Richmond Mill

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=209961&page=1


pics
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=209964#Post209964

Last edited by ewest; 01/24/24 01:41 PM.















ArkieJig #563778 01/24/24 03:01 PM
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Not that I've handled a few, but here's a couple of CNBG from my big pond. Neither CNBG pictures were taken after a soak in a tank. Colors shown are immediately after being caught.

This one is Floridaish, and was taken years ago
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This one is OTS
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by FireIsHot; 01/24/24 03:05 PM. Reason: ADD

AL

ArkieJig #563779 01/24/24 03:31 PM
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Al, I thought that Todd was trying to select for the reddish tipped fins?


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ArkieJig #563780 01/24/24 04:49 PM
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He already had them, I just wanted to make them the dominant colors here by selecting a single male with the most vivid red colors. I had the water to raise thousands of them. But as usual, everything but a meteor hitting the hatchery pond ruined my plans.


AL

ArkieJig #563783 01/24/24 05:44 PM
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Al,

Your BG are so broad that they appear to have tiny heads!

It would take a pretty big bass to eat them when they are shaped like that.

Any chance that predator selection is eliminating the more slender BG, or are all of the size ranges of similar shape (correcting for age)?

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