Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
victortechy, fishengelbert, Woody Jones, Joe7328, Reno Guerra
18,475 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,938
Posts557,716
Members18,476
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,493
ewest 21,489
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,134
Who's Online Now
12 members (Joe7328, Lake8, Sunil, Theo Gallus, LeighAnn, Augie, FishinRod, Donatello, Reno403, catscratch, Theeck, canyoncreek), 820 guests, and 242 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
C
Online Content
C
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 146
I don't know that I have seen a study that shows how often the older female ovaries fail to this 'virus' or parasite. The mentions on the forum are more like it 'could' happen but I don't know that it actually happens with great frequency or with great infrequency. To say that any large female golden shiner must be sterile is kind of like saying that every nocturnal animal that is wandering around in broad daylight must have rabies. Probably a few do, but probably many more are still acting strange in the middle of the day but do not have rabies.

I too have adult GSH that are 6-8 years old and are 6-8" long. I have no predators that can eat them. I do have very few or maybe none? small GSH. However the same time the small size class of GSH disappeared my predators grew big enough to eat them.

So it may be that GSH eggs are viable but predators are consuming them.

I would assume 'sterile' could mean zero eggs or it could mean many eggs produced that cannot turn into living fry. I don't think the ovarian problem in GSH was from a chemical that impaired spawning but was from a parasite that invaded only the GSH ovary.

We should all probably try to find the actual studies smile

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 618
Likes: 73
Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 618
Likes: 73
Check out this link


"Politics": derived from 'poly' meaning many, and 'tics' meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,740
Likes: 293
Sunil Online Content OP
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,740
Likes: 293
Originally Posted by anthropic
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but seem to recall warnings that overpopulation of golden shiners caused them to excrete chemicals that suppressed spawning. So would this also suppress spawning of other fish?


I don't know that I've seen those warnings, but perhaps. I have certainly seen golden shiners raiding spawning nests of bass, so there's surely a reduction of spawn for LMB there.


I also have not heard about the females becoming sterile, but I've never sought out any related information.

To be clear, I've amped this pond with Golden Shiners, repeatedly. But I haven't for a few years and am surprised at the large amount of GSH in the pond along with predator fish that I can see feeding. I do agree with all the input that I may not truly know what my predator population is.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
Guys, if you want the predators to grow, you have to have a pond that has adult forage fish that are too big to become food. If the forage adults were small enough to become food, and the pond manager didn't stay ahead of the predators with manual harvest, then the predators would overeat the forage base and become stunted.

Sunil, you want the pond to be the way it is now. Stock some HSB or even some Hybrid Crappie. I have a customer that has a 4 ac pond that has GSH that are too big for the predators to eat and his HBC went from 2"-4" to 15" in two years.

If I had my druthers, I'd want a pond that had an overpopulation of Shiners. Cheaper on the pocket book than buying them 2x year to stock into the pond!!


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
2 members like this: ewest, FishinRod
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
esshup - makes a very point about forage fish density: "If I had my druthers, I'd want a pond that had an overpopulation of Shiners. Cheaper on the pocket book than buying them 2x year..". Can a pond have too many forage fish? IMO that would occur only in ponds where the forage fish were limiting the needed recruitment of predators for the goals.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/20/22 10:33 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
Originally Posted by esshup
Guys, if you want the predators to grow, you have to have a pond that has adult forage fish that are too big to become food.

Sunil, you want the pond to be the way it is now.


I Agree!!!!
















Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,596
Likes: 36
The problem I've seen with too many adult shiners in my 1/4 acre pond was zero recruitment of new SMB. I've removed a lot of adult GSH since restocking SMB in my pond as they were competing with the both my newly stocked SMB and and similar sized RES for food. I consider large GSH a competitors for food with similar sized or smaller fish.

2019 110 3-4" SMB stocked
2020 308 5-1/2" to 7" GSH were removed (1232 GSH per acre, mostly in the 6" to 6 1/2" size range)
2021 363 5 1/2" to 7" GSH were removed (1452 GSH per acre, mostly in the 7" size range)
2022 101 6-8" GSH were removed (404 GSH per acre, mostly in the 8" size range)

I have caught a few 6 1/2" to 9" SMB this summer which makes me believe I have had some recruitment. I had huge GSH hatch again in June, lots of 2-1/2 to to 3" shiners going into winter and good numbers of 4" to 5 1/2" from last years huge GSH hatch.

For some odd reason RES recruitment hasn't been an issue with GSH present but SMB recruitment has.



Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
Shorty verifies our thinking that too many shiners can likely reduce the amount of recruitment of preferred sport fish and or other small beneficial forage fish. SMB are not always reliable for producing good spawns each year. Thus that may also play a role is lack of SMB recruitment for Shorty's pond. One thing that I would strongly consider if I had too many adult shiners I would start adding a few hybrid striped bass for a couple years and watch the relative density of shiners present. HSB will not reproduce in the pond so one has pretty good control of the predation pressure upon the shiners. As the HSB grow they should eat more of the larger shiners. These two fish species are IMO a real good combination of prey and predator. I also think HSB will on a yearly average eat more shiners compared to a SMB due to innate feeding habits. HSB and shiners are primarily 'open water' fish so these two species will interact a large percent of the time. Shorty has been very good keeping track of numbers of shiners removed each year. These data will allow him better see the predatory impact of HSB on the shiner population.

This thread is not going into the archives in both the HSB and Forage fish. There should be an archive topic for Golden shiners. If there isn't one I or Theo Gallus will create one sometime soon.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/22/22 11:08 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,740
Likes: 293
Sunil Online Content OP
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
OP Online Content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,740
Likes: 293
Bill, and all, I'm seeing a bit more of what Shorty is experiencing and that's making me wonder about the other implications of having GSH in a small pond.

On HSB, from the ones that I've had stocked in my ponds, their mouth gapes are not that big. Frankly, I've been surprised at the large size of some of my HSB with small mouths.

Just for reference, the pond is not in a sad state. I'm just really looking to better understand what all the GSH are doing in my pond.

My LMB recruitment was very, very small.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
Sunil - Your GSH situation in the 0.25 ac pond and lack of LMB recruitment most likely parallels that of Shorty in that too many larger GSH can also reduce recruitment of reproducing fishes including your LMB numerous other species. Lots of adult GSH need to eat and new fish fry are probably good food items for the shiners.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/26/22 08:23 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
Sunil previously answered my question on predator recruitment in the affirmative. Bill and Shorty's posts are exactly why I ask that question.

My concern is that GSH from hatcheries have a history of disease that makes them functionally non-reproductive after a few years.

Pleistophora ovarie infects golden shiner ovaries, reducing egg production. Egg masses appear discolored, opaque, yellow or brown instead of light green. Treatments for these diseases have not been developed and prevention requires culling of infected fish and disinfection of ponds.

The PCR and histological demonstration of the presence of O. ovariae spores in oocytes and fry, and the failure of strong DNA denaturants to reduce egg-associated copies, give evidence that O. ovariae is vertically transmitted within eggs. Denaturant = the act or process of depriving something of its natural character or properties.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/22 08:18 PM. Reason: added definition















Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,344
Likes: 601
F
Lunker
Online Content
Lunker
F
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,344
Likes: 601
ewest (and others),

I have seen this discussion about GSH reproductive disease on Pond Boss many times.

However, I have not really seen a good discussion where it was translated from "pond expert" language into "average pond owner" language. Therefore, I will try to ask some beginner questions for clarification.

If a pond has a self-sustaining population of GSH then there must be some fertile brood stock. Do you think the reproduction is from a small percentage of 3+ y.o. females that DO NOT have the infection, or the reproduction is from 1 or 2 y.o. females that have reached sexual maturity, but have not yet had the infection manifest in their egg production?

If the answer is the former, then I would expect to see the GSH population eventually extirpated if the young shiners are consumed prior to reaching sexual maturity, and the small amount of older brood stock eventually ages out of spawning. However, in that scenario I do see one very negative possibility if there are no predators in the pond capable of eating full-grown shiners. That would be a significant population of large shiners that suppress reproduction of the desirable predator species, yet supply zero forage value. In that case, the solution is obvious - you must have some predator in the pond capable of eating full-grown GSH.

If the answer is the latter, and the GSH have a viable, sustaining population in the pond, then what improvements could the pond owner make? Having the older females develop the disease in an infected ponds seems not much different than introducing new GSH that also carry the disease. I don't know how you would manage differently than any other forage species - you would just do some supplemental stockings as your sampling indicated the population was declining?

I feel like I am missing some obvious conclusion as regards pond management, or I have an erroneous assumption. Either way, I think we average readers would appreciate a little more clarification on this topic (since it seems to be a recurring discussion).

Thanks, FishinRod.

1 member likes this: DrLuke
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
ewest - is there a study of how the Pleistophora ovarie infects golden shiner ovaries? What is the process of transmission? Is there a life cycle of the virus?. .
There is a local pond to me where GSH have been in the pond since 1974 with YP, RES and SMB The GSH are still reproducing and do not seem to be overabundant. I am wondering if the ovary virus dissipates gradually over time with infected fish getting eaten /eliminated? .

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/24/22 08:30 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
ewest - is there a study of how the Pleistophora ovarie infects golden shiner ovaries? What is the process of transmission? Is there a life cycle of the virus?. .
There is a local pond to me where GSH have been in the pond since 1974 with YP, RES and SMB The GSH are still reproducing and do not seem to be overabundant. I am wondering if the ovary virus dissipates gradually over time with infected fish getting eaten /eliminated? .

There is a public lake here that has a self sustaining population of GSH, and one customers pond that has ample spawning habitat for the GSH (which were sourced from a hatchery) also has a self sustaining population of GSH. They were initially stocked 11-10-2016 at the rate of 25#/surface acre.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
Yes bill several studies. Will post some more. The major problem it seems (may be in error) is occuring in hatchery purchased stock.


Bill check your email.

Pleistophora ovarie infects golden shiner ovaries, reducing egg production. Egg masses appear discolored, opaque, yellow or brown instead of light green. Treatments for these diseases have not been developed and prevention requires culling of infected fish and disinfection of ponds. Pleistophora infections may be reduced by removing golden shiner females from brood fish ponds after two years of age.


http://aqfi.uaex.edu/grad/gradlife/thesis/pdf/proposal2.pdf

Ovipleistophora ovariae infects the ovaries and renders older fish sterile (Summerfelt 1994) forcing golden shiner farmers to use 1-year-old fish as breeders rather than more mature broodfish.

The presence of parasite spores in the ovary makes vertical transmission a likely mode.
Some researchers are confident that vertical transmission exists for O. ovariae, however they are unsure if it is transovarial (in the egg) or transovum (on the egg) (J. E. Smith, University of Leeds, personal communication).


Journal of Aquatic Animal Health
Volume 20, 2008 - Issue 1
Vertical Transmission of Ovipleistophora ovariae (Microspora) within the Eggs of the Golden Shiner
Nicholas B. D. Phelps
&
Andrew E. Goodwin
Pages 45-53 | Received 15 May 2007, Accepted 15 Sep 2007, Published online: 09 Jan 2011

Abstract
Fertilized eggs collected from broodfish infected by Ovipleistophora ovariae were tested by quantitative polymerase chain reaction (PCR) and found to be positive for the O. ovariae genome at 7.77 × 102 to 3.26 × 107 copies per microgram of host DNA. Fry hatched from these eggs contained from 1.37 × 102 to 9.89 × 106 copies of the O. ovariae genome per microgram of host DNA. Surface treatments of fertilized eggs with 150 mg formalin/L (used by farms as a fungicide) or a 1.5% solution of sodium sulfite (which removes the adhesive egg matrix) did not reduce vertical transmission to fry. Treatment of eggs with a 10% solution of bleach or a proprietary commercial DNA denaturant did not reduce the number of egg-associated copies of the O. ovariae genome. Histology of ovaries of infected fish demonstrated spores within the oocytes. However, no spores were observed by histology in positive fry hatched from infected eggs. The PCR and histological demonstration of the presence of O. ovariae spores in oocytes and fry, and the failure of strong DNA denaturants to reduce egg-associated copies, give evidence that O. ovariae is vertically transmitted within eggs.

Transboundary and Emerging Diseases
An expert-based risk ranking framework for assessing potential pathogens in the live baitfish trade
Margaret C. McEachran,Fernando Sampedro,Dominic A. Travis,Nicholas B. D. Phelps
First published: 09 December 2020

https://doi.org/10.1111/tbed.13951
Citations: 1

Ovipleistophora ovariae is an obligate intracellular and vertically transmitted parasite, infecting the ovarian tissue of golden shiners, leading to significant declines in fecundity by age-2 (Phelps & Goodwin, 2008). Although O. ovariae is believed to be widely distributed and highly prevalent in the golden shiner supply chain, surveys of wild populations to confirm establishment have not been completed (McEachran et al., accepted), and the parasite remains of concern. Indeed, a previous qualitative risk assessment for golden shiners imported from Arkansas bait producers identified both Asian fish tapeworm and O. ovariae as high-risk

Last edited by ewest; 10/25/22 10:32 AM.















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,134
Likes: 486
Too many golden shiners GSH are not the only fish that can limit recruitment of desired sport fish. Too many bluegills in a pond will also prevent recruitment of the largemouth. High numbers of green sunfish will severely reduce the amount of minnow, shiner and yellow perch recruitment. Actually too many of out of balance fish species will significantly affect the number of sport fish fry that will survive. I am now thinking that this can be a pro or con based on goals for the fishery.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/30/22 02:26 PM. Reason: pro & con

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
1 member likes this: ewest
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,493
Likes: 826
I had a customers pond that had 0 recruitment over a 2 year period from RES,YP, FHM and GSH due to the GSF in the pond. We ended up rotenoning the pond and starting over due to the GSF. If the customer wanted a LMB pond we wouldn't have killed it but he wanted a pond full of SMB.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,489
Likes: 265
Originally Posted by Bill Cody
... . Actually too many of out of balance fish species will significantly affect the number of sport fish fry that will survive.

Very well put Bill ! Plus, guys, it is not just a question of the eggs/fry being eaten. Once this stage is reached the suppressed fish often don't try to reproduce as it is a futile event.

Last edited by ewest; 10/27/22 10:47 AM.















Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Ralph D Hart
Recent Posts
Hi there quick question on going forward
by Joe7328 - 04/16/24 02:35 PM
Braggin Time
by Lake8 - 04/16/24 02:21 PM
What did you do at your pond today?
by FishinRod - 04/16/24 01:49 PM
'Nother New Guy
by FishinRod - 04/16/24 01:42 PM
aeration pump type?
by Theo Gallus - 04/16/24 10:19 AM
Golden Shiners - What size to stock?
by Theeck - 04/16/24 09:49 AM
How to catch Hybrid Striper
by FireIsHot - 04/16/24 09:45 AM
instant email notifications of post replies ?
by Augie - 04/16/24 09:31 AM
fishing tackle and tackle room
by FireIsHot - 04/16/24 08:30 AM
Compaction Question
by teehjaeh57 - 04/15/24 11:54 PM
What type of fry?
by Sunil - 04/15/24 08:58 PM
Group Text of Customers, Pay to Fish
by Fishingadventure - 04/15/24 04:24 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5