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#551653 08/22/22 08:53 PM
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We have a 5 acre pond that we are looking to drop around 2 to 3 feet in order to clean out the head water as it has accumulated silt over many years. The middle of the pond is roughly 15 feet deep. I have placed the head of my pipe roughly 15 feet from the bank into the water and about 3 feet deep. The pipe then runs uphill about 155 feet to a T which is at the peak of the hill and used to pour water in to fill up the pipes. The pipe then runs downhill to the drain end 180 feet where I have it capped off until I have the pipes fill with water and ready to release in order to cause a siphon effect and pull the pond water out.

I am running into an issue on the pond side of the T. The water seems to be draining into the pond under water and not holding in the pipes. As mentioned, the pipe is underwater about 15’ out from the bank and 3’ deep. I would think that the pipes would be full of water up to that point and not capable of being pushed out because of all the water pressure in the pond. Also, I have checked for pipe leaks and there appear to be none.

Can someone please help with any suggestions on why that end of the siphon is not holding water?

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You need to cap both ends, fill the pipe, cap the tee, uncap the pond end underwater, and almost simultaneously uncap the lower end. I recently siphoned down a pond, and it wasn't easy getting it started. Any air in the pipe can break the siphon, or slow it down. If you have even a little air in the pipe, and uncap an end, the bubble will try to run up the pipe, and could break the siphon. Been there, done that.

The best way to start a siphon, is to get a trash pump, and fill the pipe with pressure from the lower end, with both ends open and no tee, with the pond end in the water. Once the trash pump forces all the air out of the pipe, you disconnect from the pump, and the siphon will flow, guaranteed. You will need a source of water at the lower end. A 100 gallon tank should suffice.

The way you are doing it now, air remains in the pipe from the pond level to the tee on the pond side, a considerable distance, so any siphon will not sustain itself.

Last edited by John Fitzgerald; 08/22/22 09:58 PM.
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Ok, I would have thought that the pressure of a 5 acre pond pushing down on a pipe at 3 feet depth would have kept the water between the end of the pipe in the water and the surface from being pushed out. I guess not!

Any suggestions on what to cap the pond end with in order to remove quickly?

I have a forklift and 275 gallon tank that I have been using to fill the pipes at the T. Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

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The water pressure in the pipe in 150 ft of slope to the top of the dam is way way higher then the pond at 3 ft of depth so it will all push out into the pond on that side leaving your pipe empty, I have done exactly what you are doing and it will work like a million bucks, the only thing you will have to do different is put a check valve in the pond side of the pipe under the water so that the water can flow in and let the siphon work but will hold the water in the pipe when you fill it till you get the tee capped tightly and the valve open or cap removed on the outside down slope side.
Again, the 5 acre pond has almost zero pressure at 3 ft of depth, it could be 105 acres and it only has the pressure of three ft of head. while the pipe going uphill to whatever elevation change there is will give you the calculation of the water pressure at that point, it will run empty as soon as there is three ft of water in your siphon pipe the rest will run empty as fast as you fill it.
It is also imperative to fill the pipe slowly so that all the air can escape as you are filling it so that you do not have any air bubbles in the line anywhere. I have drained many ponds this way without any pump other then to fill the pipe at the tee. Good Luck!


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Thank you! I will go on the hunt for a 4” check valve. Appreciate your time.

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Sometimes a picture says things better than I can manage to say. With regard to priming, starting with the pond end, sink the hose slowly to ensure all the air escapes. The pond end doesn't need a check valve but this would assist keeping the suction end below the water. It would be very handy to have a valve at the outlet end that can be closed. Essentially, you will slowly sink the hose and water will flood into the portion your have sunk. When you get to the end you should see the water there and once you have sunk the outlet the hose should be full of water. To save prime, close the valve at the outlet end. I have seen others use cellophane and baling wire for this piece (using corrugated drain pipe as the conduit). But the valve can very securely prevent air from rushing in when you lift the outlet end of the primed conduit. Also it can be opened and closed at will.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/23/22 07:57 AM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Thank you!

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Jscummy,

You have listed several of the dimensions for your project. However, the dimensions you have mentioned only make a small difference, and you have not listed the critical dimensions.

How high above the surface level of your pond is the tee at the top of the hill where you pour water?

34' is the maximum theoretical elevation change at sea level. 20-25' is around the max in the real world. The siphon actually operates using atmospheric pressure to "lift" the water. If you are at a moderately high elevation in the mountainous parts of Kentucky, then your max lift possible over the top of your hill will be even less.

The second "critical" number is how far the end of your outlet pipe is below the end of your inlet pipe in the pond. For relatively short pond siphon runs, being about 4' lower at the outlet is usually sufficient to set up a good siphon.

However, you are running a lot of "horizontal" pipe to get up to the top of your hill and then back down to the end of the outlet. Water running through a pipe loses a little bit of pressure due to friction along the walls of the pipe. If your outlet is only 4' lower than your inlet, you may not be able to establish a siphon with your long pipe run.

You did not state the diameter of your siphon pipe. The larger the pipe, then the less the frictional pressure losses - and the easier it is to establish the siphon action.

You have received some excellent siphon advice from the posters above. Hopefully, applying those fixes will get your siphon operating properly! I was just adding some additional siphon requirements so you can be sure your siphon will function in the real world after you get all of the "mechanics" set up correctly.

Good luck on your project! A 5-acre pond that is 15' deep sounds like it could be a beautiful pond when you finish your silt removal project.

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Thank you for replying And yes there has been some great information. So my elevation gain the top of the dam is roughly 8 feet. The difference in height between my inlet and outlet is roughly 10 to 15 feet in height difference. I’m using a 4 inch diameter pipe. In calling around to supply houses, it seems the biggest issue I’m going to be facing now is finding a check valve to fit a 4 inch pvc pipe.

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Jscummy
Thank you for replying And yes there has been some great information. So my elevation gain the top of the dam is roughly 8 feet. The difference in height between my inlet and outlet is roughly 10 to 15 feet in height difference. I’m using a 4 inch diameter pipe. In calling around to supply houses, it seems the biggest issue I’m going to be facing now is finding a check valve to fit a 4 inch pvc pipe.

Thank you!

We use what they call backflow preventers, aka checkvalve, on 4" sewer lines coming out of houses to prevent the city sewer from backing up into and flooding your house when there are a lot of houses on the same sewer line that are at a much higher elevation then your house, but they are a little pricey, any kind of valve or cap would work but you must be able to get down under water to open it almost simultaneously with the opening of the valve on the backside of the dam.
JPsdad, in this case, the way I understand it he is using hard pipe, probably pvc, which will be harder to fill and then pull over the hill, especially 335" of 4 inch pipe full of water. pvc is what I have always used, with a few bend fittings if necessary, and the pipe can be reused for something else afterwards.

Last edited by gehajake; 08/23/22 09:36 AM.

All the really good ideas I've ever had came to me while I was milking a cow.
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A suggestion that could work if you have a decent size pump: Put a tee in the pipe near the pond with a valve on the top and both inline connections. Also put a valve on the downside exit of the pipe to restrict flow (if your pump is less than 4" and open this downside valve as much as you can with the pump pressure keeping the pipe full). Hook the pump up to the tee and draw from the pond with the valve on the pump and pondside open to fill this draw pipe (you may also need a valve on the bottom of the draw line if your pump is not large enough to completely fill the draw line. You will want to first fill the draw line only and then simultaneously open the valve on the tee heading toward the siphon drain line and closing the valve on the draw side. The draw side should stay full of water since the top end is now sealed near the pump. Water should now fill the exit side if the valve on the exit is set correctly for the pump, and force all the air from this line. The valve on the end of the draw line in the pond can now be opened completely. The next thing is to shut off the pump and close the pump valve simultaneously, and then immediately open the valve on the draw side of the tee. This should leave you with a full siphon line. Opening the exit valve fully at the bottom of the siphon should allow it to run full tilt. Because I used a pump that was capable of filling my siphon line without restricting the flow on each end of the siphon tube, I did not need valves on the extreme ends of the inlet and outlet of the siphon line, but with 4" pipe, that would likely take a large pump. I hope this is not too confusing.

Last edited by RAH; 08/23/22 11:19 AM.
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Jscummy,

Sounds like your configuration will work for a siphon. I also like that you are using 4" pipe.

I agree with gehajake that using a check valve on the pond inlet side will make your life easier.

The low pressure type that you need is usually called a "backwater valve". You should be able to find one at a big box hardware store. I see $33 at my local Menards and $58 at my local Home Depot.

However, be advised that the female connections on the backwater valve are made to fit DWV pipe. Are you using PVC schedule 40 for your siphon pipe? If so, note the type of pipe you are using and test a piece of that pipe at the hardware store to make sure it fits your backwater valve. (I have had fittings NOT fit the pipe when trying to mix large diameter SCH 40 and DWV pipe.)

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What FishinRod and RAH said, that is the checkvalve I was talking about, its actually a little cheaper then I thought, I been paying a good bit more then that for them at a commercial pipe supply place.


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Oooh, I like the one that RAH found and linked.

If we are understanding your set-up correctly, then I think that valve would make your siphon job MUCH easier!

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You could use a ball valve on the ends also, but you would have to open the pond side valve underwater when starting the siphon.

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I am concerned that having a check valve on the draw pipe inlet will prevent the air in this line from escaping. Will the top of the tee where water is being added be open to the air? If so, that should work and only require the check valve on the inlet and a regular valve (or removable cap) on the outlet and top of the tee.

Last edited by RAH; 08/23/22 06:05 PM.
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2 things that I can add is that the inlet end at 3' below the pond surface only sees 1.299 psi.

The last item is you might want to put a large bell mouth fitting on the intake end to prevent a vortex from forming. If one does, it'll suck air and will break the siphon on ya.


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Thank you! My next question was the psi and whether the check valve shown above could handle the psi. The one shown says 5 psi, so it should be good according to your calculation above. Appreciate it very much!

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I think the pressure at the check valve will be based on the distance from the top of the tee to the water surface and come from the pipe side, not the pond side. The amount of the draw line that is underwater does not matter. My gut feel is that the 5 PSI max on the flapper check valve should be fine. I would be more worried that the siphon might not pull open the flapper, but I am guessing it will work fine too.

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Diagram to help future readers: note that water must be added to fill area such that air can escape (not a sealed connection).

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by RAH; 08/24/22 06:51 AM.
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RAH, I think the flapper will be fine, its a pvc flapper and will all but float open and let gravity water thru, in his case he will have considerably more pull actually enough to pull the water up an 8' elevation by dropping more then that down the other side,
Like Esshup said, the vortex it creates could be a problem, I think if he is far enough underwater it should be fine, there is not a lot of velocity, just a steady flow, even then, it will take a little while to lower that size body of water several ft.


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An important practical consideration is the operating design of the check valve. Some require positive differential to open. For every 1 psi required, there must be 2.3 feet of differential in order for the check to open. You want a low pressure opening requirement if one is implemented. The designed elevation of the discharge will need to incorporate the pressure opening requirement. Also unless the check fully opens, the flow will be a bottleneck to the flow rate. The type of check that gehajake recommended is ideal

Jscummy, you have received a lot of great advice and none of it was bad. Everyone is trying to help. The flexible drain pipe idea, I know, doesn't address your present challenges but I offered it as an alternative to you and as first choice for others who need quickly drain their ponds to a level and maintain that level for a short time. Not as durable as Sched 40 PVC but it is affordable and durable enough to last a few years. One can drain and coil for storage until he needs it again.

I will also mention that it doesn't have to be as complicated as I pictured it. It can be much more temporary. A jug can serve as a raft and you don't need to stand the pipe up. For example, one could lay the pipe over and down at the edge of the dam (or spillway) and form a loop back up the valley to the desired elevation and then drive a stake to secure it. One could lay some sheet plastic und the exit if erosion was a concern. You do need a belly in the siphon to keep it primed and maintain a level and so something like this could work temporarily without a lot of expense.

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/24/22 07:35 AM.

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Just pig it... Straight pipe, no tee's, check valves or other fanciness.. Run a rope through the entire length of the pipe. On the pond side, create a decently well fitting plug that will pass snugly through the pipe (pool noodles doubled over or something similar), tie the rope to it and wrap with a towel or something to create a fit snug enough to push by hand. Make sure to insert the plug while the pipe is sumberged, or allow it to sit long enough there is several feet of water in the pipe ahead of the plug... Hook the other end of your rope to a side by side or 4-wheeler and pull it through at a brisk pace. The head water in front of the plug will keep the pipe lubricated and help with sealing, when the plug pops out the other end your siphon will be running..

Last edited by JTodd; 08/24/22 08:38 AM.
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Buying an ATV or side-by-side to prime a siphon sounds pretty fancy to me:)

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