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I am in the planning stages for several forage ponds at our farm. My recent test holes found excellent clay, so I can build the forage ponds of almost any shape or size.
The ponds will be designed to allow easy control of the water level and be shaped for seining. (Basically, assume the paint roller tray design.)
My questions are based on trying to determine:
What pond depth, side slopes, and dimensions would be optimal for the natural productivity portion of the forage pond.
I am attempting to start a thread for "rules of thumb" that would be generally applicable to other people's situations. Therefore, I am NOT going to list my specific goals.
However, depths and dimensions that are optimal for one type of forage species may actually be detrimental to a different forage species. So when answering, please state what forage goals would be optimized by your design or reply!
Further, a rectangular forage pond that is 1' deep might optimize the food chain for FHMs, BUT those dimensions might subject them to slaughter by a wide range of predators.
Personally, I learn the most when the experts describe the optimal conditions, but then explicitly note the trade-offs. If the discussion becomes "wide ranging", then please note what factors you are specifically addressing in your reply.
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I am going to throw out some scenarios for consideration.
Fathead Minnows FHMs are omnivorous, but one of their best assets is that they are efficient at converting primary phytoplankton production into FHM mass.
Would the optimal FHM pond have vertical sides? That shape would minimize any rooted vegetation that would compete for nutrients with the phytoplankton.
Is there an optimal depth? I assume that the growth of filamentous algae (FA) would "steal" some of the nutrients that could have gone into food production for the FHMs AND make the pond more difficult to seine. Is there a bottom depth that would inhibit growth initiation sites for FA? Does that depth change significantly if the forage pond is frequently fertilized and the resultant algal blooms result in significantly less light penetration at depth?
FHMs eat algae, but do they require other inputs to their diet in order to grow rapidly, reach maturity, and spawn successfully? Do they have different dietary needs at different portions of their life cycle? Even if the swimming pool shape was optimal for the production of phytoplankton, is there something farther up the food chain that is even more beneficial to FHMs? If so, what modifications are needed to the forage pond for the best production of FHMs?
Gambusia (Mosquitofish) Gambusia are not consumers of algae, but instead prefer to consume zooplankton and insect larva. They also like to eat the fry of other fish. Therefore a forage pond optimized for Gams might require significantly different dimensions that one for FHMs.
What would be the best dimensions and pond requirements of a forage pond designed for Gams? I have no idea how to optimize the zooplankton and insect larvae. Would such a forage pond need rooted aquatic vegetation?
Do the Gams benefit by the addition of a forage fish for fry production to feed them? For example, would adding FHMs increase the total annual biomass of useable forage by helping to supply fish fry protein to the Gams? That could result in more/larger Gams AND the mass of the surviving FHMs.
Would a multi-species forage pond be more effective than a monoculture pond?
Forage Plus “Grow-Out Pond (for species such as bluegill or tilapia) What would be the optimal conditions for a forage pond with a species that requires a more diversified and complicated food chain? Consider the example of a BG forage pond using brooder BG pairs to raise BG to a specific size to then supplement the fishery of a larger pond. That forage pond would require spawning habitat, as well as the means to provide for the dietary needs of BG fry up through the dietary needs of the larger BG and the brooder pairs, plus all the food chain requirements in between.
What vegetation, structure, and surface area would be required to support this more complicated food chain? Would this pond require some 4” deep water with grass for Gams, some larger rooted vegetation to support zooplankton and insect larva, and some fluffy structure to hide minnows from predators and give them a “refuge” to support a population capable of some ongoing reproduction?
How would those requirements change if you were raising tilapia instead of BG?
I think my most unresolved questions concern the depth. What would be the preferred maximum depth and side slopes to achieve the best forage production? (I think the surface dimensions will be largely decided by each person’s local conditions.)
A big “Thanks!” to everyone that chooses to contribute to this discussion! I will try to pop in with more “goals”, or specific situation questions, in the event that there is a lot of expert input and we determine some general principles.
Sincerely, FishinRod
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FishingRod,
That is a lot of questions! I can't possibly answer them all but I think would like to address a few.
For any forage pond I think the ability to drain is very important and when you can use it seasonally as opposed to year round it allows for drying the basin which will mitigate vegetation issues and insect predators.
I do know that for production/area that smaller is better for Gams which like edge. Also filling with brush like cedar greatly enhance production by providing substantially increased surface attachment area. The brush applies to everything to include any other minnow species, crawfish, and also BG and other lepomis. It would also help TP. You have to remove brush to seine so if you can devise some system that works for you then that would be a way to get more out of a small water body.
Gams don't need fish fry as forage. They will prey on their own young but this usually is not a problem when sufficient other zooplankton forage is available.
The very best thing you can do for small fish is fertilization by organics in a pond that is freshly filled. Zooplankton can eat it directly and as it decays it will release nutrients for phytoplankton creating a smoother bloom sequence and better water quality than bloom created by inorganics (which blooms can get away from you more easily). Rice bran, cottonseed meal, and alfalfa are all good for this type of fertilization.
It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers
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Rod, I've found rock crevice type structure in 0-1.5' water provides ample reproduction. If you have control of pond level then this type habitat is not a problem for seining. Also, if fertilizing, a pound of FHM adults turns into billions in one full summer and it's very important that you pull large quantities of minnows to allow room for continued reproduction. You almost can't fertilize enough to support the shear numbers produced without removing poundage. BG, different story-in some ways. Gams seem to be or not be.. I know they don't do well with any shiner types, compared to without anyway. As for depth I think having some control over temp will be important so in S KS, 5-6' may be needed in some % for FHM, maybe deeper for BG. Shore slope will be depicted by aquatic growth rates and your habitat choice along with getting in and out of pond during seining missions.
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jpsdad, thanks for picking off a few questions. That is what I was hoping would occur, so I didn't cause anyone's keyboard to melt down.
I am contemplating a "modified" paint roller tray design. My plan is to cut a trench down the middle of the forage pond the width of my dozer blade (10' - 14'). The final product would look like the trench drain system at an auto repair shop.
The pond bottom (outside of the trench) would have a gentle slope towards the trench. The theory would be to slowly lower the water level to concentrate the fish in the trench prior to seining, which should minimize the number of stranded fish in the thick cover.
In that situation, where none of the "structure" in the pond would interfere with seining, would you recommend very high structure coverage - like 90% of the shallow bottom?
Would rooted aquatic vegetation also be a benefit for full life cycle development of most types of forage species? If so, then I am considering pushing topsoil back into the shallow bottom areas after the forage pond is compacted and sealed. (The forage pond will be filled with pumped water, so storm erosion will not be a problem.)
I think I could easily create the conditions similar to an old, rich (highly eutrophic) pond with heavy vegetation and lots of cedar trees. These would be seasonal forage ponds most years, so I could mow and apply herbicide to create open patches in the spring as desired, prior to filling.
In that situation, what bottom depth would be optimal for most types of forage fish? I was thinking of steep side slopes, and then a gently-sloped bottom towards the trench. Perhaps starting at 3' deep, then sloping to 4' at the lip of the trench.
(I may be creating a paradise for herons and cormorants. Does thick cover deter their predation? What is the depth requirement to exceed the preference of wading birds?)
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The very best thing you can do for small fish is fertilization by organics in a pond that is freshly filled. Zooplankton can eat it directly and as it decays it will release nutrients for phytoplankton creating a smoother bloom sequence and better water quality than bloom created by inorganics (which blooms can get away from you more easily). Rice bran, cottonseed meal, and alfalfa are all good for this type of fertilization. I have read that one of the main differences between inorganic (commercial) fertilizers and organic fertilizers is that the organic fertilizers generally release their nutrients much more slowly. I like your advice to therefore use a locally available organic fertilizer. My forage ponds are going to be located in our tallgrass prairie field that we bail annually. Would native grass be a decent organic fertilizer? If not, should I create a compost pile adjacent to the pond and use some partially decomposed grass as fertilizer? If so, can I just toss in an occasional pitchfork load, or would it be better to fence a small area for concentrated final decomposition in the forage pond?
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Rod, I've found rock crevice type structure in 0-1.5' water provides ample reproduction. If you have control of pond level then this type habitat is not a problem for seining. Kenny, I love the threads on PB where people are experimenting to find the optimal spawning structure for some of the "pickier" forage fish. I like your plan to to provide specific spawning structure as needed to supplement whatever natural niches are found in the forage pond. Also, if fertilizing, a pound of FHM adults turns into billions in one full summer and it's very important that you pull large quantities of minnows to allow room for continued reproduction. You almost can't fertilize enough to support the shear numbers produced without removing poundage. Your comment about shear numbers produced leads to another question. I am not going to be able to intensively manage my ponds - like many of the experts on Pond Boss. Instead of seining and transferring forage fish, should I just build a monk water control structure and create a controllable connection between the forage pond and the main pond? (In practice, it would be like raising fish in a cove behind a blocking net, and then removing the net when desired.) It would be much less work to have the forage pond come to maturity and then pull the two panels out of the monk and let the pond populations mix. After a week of slaughter, I could then re-seal the concrete divider, pump out the forage pond and let dry, and then start another cycle. That would certainly be more work during the construction phase, but much less work to transfer copious amounts of forage fish! Has anyone on the forum tried that type of system? I would appreciate any advice that would help me avoid some obvious mistakes.
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For cover in a forage pond cedar trees with a concrete block attached (to sink) and rope tied to the trunk then staked to the shore line with a metal concrete form stake works well. They will last about three years and with the rope attached can be easily pulled out to seine or even throw a cast net. Before you came up to help seine my forage pond I had one of these in that pond that I pulled the day before. I probably should have had several.
A cast net is handy to check progress, get fishing bait and harvest smaller amounts of forage fish from a forage pond. In my forage pond I also used it to raise RES recruits and to harvest some. I found if I would hand feed near dusk, then use the cast net in the shallow area of the pond where I fed, I could get quite a few small RES (and once in a while a big breeder). Five to ten throws and I would have enough in a 5 gallon bucket or two to stock my other ponds.
Other times of day with the cast net I could only occsionally get an unlucky or dumb RES. Right before dusk or slightly after was best time to get RES. That and cool weather when they were more slugish.
But a cast net does not like snags! I learned pretty quickly I did not remember as well as I thought the location of cover in my big pond and about ruined the net. But I used it a lot in my forage pond.
Last edited by snrub; 03/21/22 09:45 AM.
John
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Fishinrod, and other contributors to this thread:
You've got a fascinating discussion going here. Some clever ideas by the OP; some brilliant considerations by some of our real Heavyweights! I'm in awe of your inventiveness.
I have only one more comment right now, and the comment is made in jest, only because you, Rod, can be such a jokester at times.
"My forage ponds are going to be located in our tallgrass prairie field that we bail annually." Where do you send the water that you bail out of your tall grass prairie field before you bale it?
(I can hear teehjaeh57 groaning).
Last edited by 4CornersPuddle; 03/21/22 09:41 PM. Reason: typo
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John, thanks for that additional input.
I remember how effectively your were at sampling your forage pond with your cast net! (I think I recall that you would even use that method to collect a few RES and then bucket stock the correctly sized fish to some of your other ponds.)
I also remember that even though you "cleared" the pond, we managed to find a few broken pieces of cinder blocks as soon as the seine was pulled through.
I am trying to design a forage pond that is binary - portions will have heavy structure and objects, and portions will have ZERO obstructions.
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"My forage ponds are going to be located in our tallgrass prairie field that we bail annually." Where do you send the water that you bail out of your tall grass prairie field before you bale it?
(I can hear teehjaey57 groaning). Curses, I have been hoisted by my own petard! I re-read my comments TWICE before hitting "post" to try and find all of my errors in content and concepts. I do enjoy finding humor at Pond Boss because it is such a good-natured collection of people. I am glad I brightened your day a little with the comical image of me in the middle of a 100-acre field holding a tiny bucket! (Making teehjaeh groan is just icing on the cake!)
Last edited by FishinRod; 03/21/22 10:11 AM.
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That may cause some issues when seining unless you have a blocking net or somehow figure out how to coax your bait fish out of the cover of the structured portion of the pond. Or maybe you are just figuring on draining down past the structure level so the fish have to move.
On a completely different subject, but a lesson to be learned, the reason those concrete blocks were in there to begin with was to sink some floating plactic tubing going to the aereation system. Dumb mistake. I used sinking tubing out to the last portion of run. But being cheap, and having LOTS of feet of tubing to the air 5 total air membranes in the three associated ponds, I decided to go cheap and use black plastic tubing for all but about the last 20-30 feet. The idea was the sinking tubing would allow me to pull the diffusers up with a boat to service them (it does work) and the black plastic 3/4" water tubing would save on the cost. I used concrete blocks every few feet to sink the tubing.
So far I have not hooked it yet with a fishing hook but I think it is only a matter of time............the line floats up a few inches off the bottom between the blocks.
But in the forage pond when I pulled the diffuser out and pumped the pond down for seining the blocks were left behind. And we found them with the seine.
Long story but maybe others can learn from my mistakes. Spend the money all the way out on sinking tubing. Lot easier to deal with (it was not particularly fun with snorkel gear putting concrete blocks on top of an air line), move around if a person decides to change layout (I have on one line), and generally not worth the additional savings in cost, in my humble opinion.
Last edited by snrub; 03/21/22 09:58 AM.
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Or maybe you are just figuring on draining down past the structure level so the fish have to move. That is the plan. I do have some lower areas on our property, so I can easily drain the forage ponds to any desired pool level. We shall see how well it works. I suspect some "structure" will migrate down into my seining trench every year. However, it should be possible to keep it clean since I can drain and dry the forage ponds as needed. P.S. Thanks for the reminder about the sinking air line. I believe I have seen that recommendation noted as "well worth the money" in almost every single aeration thread that I have read.
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How would those requirements change if you were raising tilapia instead of BG? I'm certainly no expert, but I've raised my share of fish. I can't think of any requirements for tilapia other than a correctly sized raschel weave net, and a gallon of clove oil to semi-sedate them, as getting them out of a pond is laborious at best. I had one of the biggest tilapia breeders in TX tell me the best way to raise tilapia, is to throw 5 pounds in a pond and walk away. Other than feeding mine, I did the same, and the pull out weight was mind boggling to say the least. I'll never do it again. If I had to pay $1 for every cuss word while seining them, I could buy a new boat. This is no help, but my Coppernose found their own best places to spawn, and repeatedly spawned in the same hard bottomed beds. My plan after my hatchery pond clean out, is to do the same, then fill in the preferred existing beds with gravel. That does seem to help the numbers. The spawning depth fluctuated with clarity and water level, and there were beds in about a 5' depth range. Just a few things to think about. The shallower the slope, the easier it is for GBH and great white egrets to whack your spawning beds. I had set bird netting out over the preferred bed areas to protect mine. Concentrate on your water quality, and invest in a quality water testing kit, not a swimming pool kit. If you go with aeration, then have a backup plan prior to oopsy's. A fish kill due to low O2 and high fish volume is not the time to be trying to figure out a solution. I don't aerate, but I do have a PVC venturi aeration rig for my 3" pump ready to go. $10 worth of PVC, and a palm sized piece of thin aluminum is all it took. It takes less than a hour to set it up, and if the pump's already on it's dedicated platform, then it takes about 1 minute. Figure out how you're going to get the fish out, how you're going to hold them at the bank, and how you're going to transport them if needed. Moving fish can be stressful on them, so always go with oxygen, not air, and get some Pentair oxygen diffusers and an a O2 bottle. O2 bottles are pretty cheap on Cragslist. Finally, small fish are always happier in water. DO NOT load a dip net full of 2" to 4" fish. You can crush or suffocate the lower half of the fish. Unfortunately, I can confirm this.
Last edited by FireIsHot; 03/21/22 02:12 PM. Reason: replaced O2 with aeration
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Couple of points. 1) letting the water flow out to transfer fish to the bigger pond in the flow won't guarantee that a predator won't swim in....... 2) +2 on the Pentair micropore diffusers BUT get the Pointfour ones NOT the generic Pentair ones. The Pentair ones will crack over time, either the stone cracks or the junction of the plastic perimeter to the ceramic stone cracks. Do NOT run O2 thru them when they are out of the water then put them in the water, you will be buying new ones..... 3) You want your seine at least 1/4 taller than the water you are seining, AND you want the mesh smaller than the smallest fish (vertical height) in the pond or your seine will act as a gill net. Those small fish that are gilled are a royal PITA to get out of the net. 4) When you seine your pond it will be a LOT easier on the fish if you seine 1/3 then 1/2, then 3/4 then the whole pond. That way you won't have a BUNCH of fish in the seine muddying up the water and stressing them out. Less fish to move too, so it's less stressful on you.
Just plan the pond sides with a gentle enough slope so they don't slough off over time.
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I am trying to design a forage pond that is binary - portions will have heavy structure and objects, and portions will have ZERO obstructions. That is just what I have, but not limited to forage species. I have CC and a few LMB in there, too. It is an half-acre triangle with a 30' diameter island in one corner. I placed two aerator heads so there is an imaginary line between them that splits the pond. The line is parallel to the side opposite the island corner. Behind the line includes the island, forage spawning structure, and other artificial or Xmas tree cover. In front of the line, the bottom is clean for swimming. Also in front of the line are the floating dock, 'beach' and boat tie-up. The only fish habitat in front of the line is shoreline plants, the shade of the dock, and there are a couple milk crates hanging directly under it. The pond is just 6' average depth, so anything on the bottom is a kick hazard to swimmers. If it were deeper, I might be comfortable swimming above fish cover deeper than 6', but 'teen-proofing' requires to consider an errant diver.
"Live your life so that when you sing your death song, you will die like a hero who is going home with no shame to meet the Creator and your family." - Tecumseh; April 9, 1809
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Thanks Hirsch, that sounds like a great pond!
Is fishing allowed on the "clean" side of the line? If so, how many do you catch around the dock and out of the shoreline plants, compared to the "structures" side of the pond?
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Lime
by FireIsHot - 10/14/24 07:43 AM
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