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#540951 10/26/21 05:41 PM
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Starting to dream about replanting my pond since I just dug two deep areas that will hopefully keep fish alive if the drought returns. Anyway we have had nearly 7" of rain in the last month. We usually get about 12" in a year, so it's been really wet, however, the drought was so long and sustained it's just verily starting to get the ground water recharged and my deep areas are now full to the regular pond bottom. So I may be getting ahead of myself, but I expect we will get enough moisture this winter to refill my pond...

Deep spots are 5 to 6' deep, when the regular pond fills it will add about 5 to 6 more feet to the total depth... Anyway I'd like to have a pond that will be somewhat balanced so nothing over populates, but things stay healthy and strong. I don't want to have to supplementally feed the fish if I can get them to stay in a balanced population... What is a good mix to try for so I have fun fishing and a balanced population...

Last time the pond filled it started with fatheads naturally reproducing in the pond until it was teaming with life, then the green sunfish and crappie found their way into the pond...(it used to be on my irrigation ditch, but we no longer use the ditch, so outside fish should not find their way into the pond this time.)

After about 12 years the crappie had overpopulated to the point that the crappie were stunted and looked very sickly (first 9 years the fish were very healthy and fun size.)... I know there was a couple bass in there that died one year during a spring die off, (probably about four years ago) but I'm not sure how many predators were ever in there. (When it went dry this summer all I seen was carp, stunted crappie and stunted green sunfish)

At first the fatheads really made the sunfish grow fast and bigger than I've ever seen in the wild, crappie got to 14" too, but then when they were gone the sunfish and crappie got really small again. So I'm pretty sure I need some help figuring out how to get a correct predator balance. The pond is a little bigger than 1/3 acre... I don't typically eat a lot of fish, so I can't count on me culling the population much...
I like cc, bluegill, lmb, smb and crappie can they be used in a mix that will work? If so how many predators do I need. I've read some suggest only planting
one sex of CC to maintain a consistent number, I assume they can do that with LMB as well. If so will they keep the bluegill or crappie in a healthy number so the fishing will be good without getting too stunted?

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I've read some suggest planting your forage minnows first thing in the spring and then planting small bluegill with them so the fatheads have time to build a good number of fish before the gill start feeding on them? Is that a good approach? How long after do you plant the predators? Will gills and crappie wipe out the forage minnow population? If so will their fry (gills) be sufficient in number to feed the gills and the predators? what do the gill eat during the winter after the yearly minnow crop gets too big? Is it possible to do what I'm talking about without feeding the fish? I know the summer has lots of bugs and polywogs in the pond, but winter is a little spartan... Since my spring die off I put a aerator in the pond and haven't had any other spring die offs, but i don't know if that is a result of it or just the way the year worked out... Are there other forage minnows that would survive the gill and predators? if so what are they and are there any sources close to Utah that you could get them to the pond before they died? Also I don't want the minnows to get too big so they can't be controlled by the gills and predators... I know of a source in Toole that has the gills and lmb but they don't have a lot of other things...

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Originally Posted by SkunkedAgain
The pond is a little bigger than 1/3 acre... I don't typically eat a lot of fish, so I can't count on me culling the population much...

I like cc, bluegill, lmb, smb and crappie can they be used in a mix that will work? If so how many predators do I need. I've read some suggest only planting
one sex of CC to maintain a consistent number, I assume they can do that with LMB as well. If so will they keep the bluegill or crappie in a healthy number so the fishing will be good without getting too stunted?

Which of those fish you like can be obtained from a local supplier?

The CC idea you have is a very clever one. Why hasn't someone out there produce a line of CC females (where all offspring are the female genotype) They wouldn't dig holes and wouldn't reproduce. Anyways if you were able to stock just females that might be ideal. CC can coexist with FHM and so that would be sufficient forage. A fair proportion of the FHM the CC would be eating would be dead or dying. They turn over rapidly as few live FHM longer than 1.5 years. So they coexist well.

At 48 CC/acre you could grow them in excess of 7 lbs on a 8 year ladder possibly without feed if your water is fertile. At 1/3 acre that would be 16 or 2 per year. If CC reproduce ... the water will be muddy and growth slow without heavy feeding ... so if you can identify sex that would be a bonus. A hatchery might sell you sexed adults. If you can and want to go that route, starting with 16 this spring and then stock 2 take no more than 1 or 2 the same and each year following. You could double everything ... they just won't get as large as they would at 48/acre.

If you stock BG and don't want to actively manage the population you must have a very good standing population of LMB ... especially in a small pond like yours. A pond like that can grow very big BG but the LMB are more like panfish. Anyways it works like this .... An LMB needs to eat X amount of BG/year ... If there are enough of them ... very few survive the gape. For good fishing ... no more than 200 BG/ACRE should survive the LMB gape annually. The fewer that do ... the larger the ultimate sizes will be and the faster they will grow.

You have a small pond and if you are good at determining sex you could add practically anything into a CC/FHM pond in small non-reproducing number. Provided the number is not excessive, they should coexist also with FHM. So for fun bonus fish female LMB/SMB/Crappie or male BG could be added in limited number.


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So let me see if I understand this correctly. If I started with FHM in the spring, then in the fall added 16 female cc, that would be a self sustaining pond. I could also add a limited number of non reproducing BG,BCP or LMB to the pond.

If I added BG that can reproduce, then I would need to add enough female LMB to keep the annual population to less than about 70 fish... Can I do both options, or would the BG and LMB wipe out the FHM?

Optimal fun mix might be FHM, female CC, BG and female LMB then stick a few female BCP in to grow big without reproducing to overpopulate the pond... I do know BCP are tough on FHM, so likely need to reduce numbers of CC...

Will CC feed on BG? Or are they too fast, so you need the LMB to keep BG populations in check? Reason for asking, is I'd like to keep the minnow base doing well to feed the other fish....

Maybe I need to focus on FHM, then add limited numbers of non reproducing other fish like female CC, female BCP, and male BG like you suggest... I wish we had more fish sources out here so I could buy the hybrid blue gill and others... I'll probably have to buy older fish so I can tell the difference between the sexes and that will get expensive..But I guess the pond won't support too many fish anyway.... Thskn so much for the help... J

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Oh you mentioned that in the BG LMB combo that the bass are like panfish, does that mean you need to have a fairly high number of bass to stay ahead of the BG reproduction so the bass sort of stunt? Local supplier only had CC, BG and LMB last year, but we might be able to influence them to pull in something different, I need to get in touch with them and find out now I'm back to where I think I can get my pond back in business.

If I have to go with the BG/LMB combo, what are the recommended stocking rates per acre? Thanks J

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In pond management there is no stable state of balance. Balance is the un-natural state. Ponds tend to be unbalanced or moving one direction or the other. Having said that there are exceptions. I have not seen in my experience an un-managed pond that stayed in balance long term. My suggestion is stock for your goals and be the manager of change.
















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That sounds like sound wisdom in that suggestion... Because change does seem to be the only constant... Make a plan and adjust as necessary... Thanks J

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Originally Posted by SkunkedAgain
Oh you mentioned that in the BG LMB combo that the bass are like panfish, does that mean you need to have a fairly high number of bass to stay ahead of the BG reproduction so the bass sort of stunt? Local supplier only had CC, BG and LMB last year, but we might be able to influence them to pull in something different, I need to get in touch with them and find out now I'm back to where I think I can get my pond back in business.

If I have to go with the BG/LMB combo, what are the recommended stocking rates per acre? Thanks J

A pond will support a limited weight of fish. According to the father of modern aquaculture (H. S. Swingle) the weight can be divided between a large number of small fish or a smaller number of larger fish. Just divide the weight limit by the number of individuals to estimate the average weight of individuals. To keep any fish growing through out its life requires a very limited number of individuals and recruitment.

Swingle defined balance as a state where the predator prey combination provided fishing opportunity for both predator and prey. A minimum of 35% of the population must be sufficiently large to be harvestable in order to meet his definition of balance. So is a put & take situation like CC only or RBT only balanced? I suppose it is as long as one isn't demanding 1/8 pound FHM smile Provided the FHM are limited to a safe standing weight (by food the pond makes for them) they are in in balance with the pond and the CC are in balance with the FHM they consume both the living and the dead. That's my 2 cents anyways.

And what of a pond filled with 1/2 lb to 3/4 lb LMB and mostly 1/2 lb to 1.25 lb BG? Is it balanced? If balanced is a natural state that tends to be stable ... I would say yes. If balanced is that both predator and prey reach harvestable sizes that are a high proportion of the population (fewer smaller fish than larger) then heck ... that seems to meet Swingle's definition. That said, most people here seem to want large bass with 120 RW. So I guess it depends on goals. Generally, however, this latter situation is one that is not sustainable without a lot of population management .. ergo .. ewest's pertinent comment.

If you want sufficient control of your BG you probably should start with 100 LMB/acre (34 to 40) and delay harvesting any until you get off a spawn. I could not recommend trying to grow LMB to large sizes in a pond your size. I like your idea of CC but I do think you may find it problematic to source them in single sex.


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Thanks for that reply, gave me a lot to think about... So is Swingle's numbers pretty good to work with? If so where is the best reference to study his info? Might give me a framework to start a plan from... Then how do most of you check your ponds to see if you are moving towards your plan or away from it? Do you use minnow traps and gill nets, or just keep an eye on the condition of the fish as you catch them? Thanks J

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Hey I looked up the article by Swingle from 1939, it was a very interesting article and helped my understanding a whole bunch... Thanks so much for putting me onto that... Good read... J

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Skunked, here are few more to dig your teeth into.

A good one.

This is good too.

Yet something else I think you would enjoy.

Website condensing Swingle's principles


Just in case you are really interested in doing single sex catfish. The males grow faster with lower filet % yield typically and could burrow to make nests. The females grow slower but may have other benefits like they are not as aggressive and don't dig holes.

Quote
Determining Sex
Secondary sex characteristics are often used in sex determination with mature adults. These characteristics include body shape and coloration. Males are usually larger and have broader heads than females. As spawning season approaches, males become leaner, develop even larger, muscular heads, and turn a dark bluish to black color.
Females' heads are narrower than their bodies when viewed from the top. As spawning season approaches, they develop soft, swollen bellies. Their color remains gray to olive.

Genital Examination

Turn the fish belly up. Two or three openings are present. The opening nearest the head is the anus. The one nearest the tail is the genital opening.

Males: The genital opening is at the end of a fleshy, nipple-like structure. It is called the genital papilla. It becomes more visible, swollen and rigid as spawning season approaches. Selection of robust males is based on those with a thick well muscled body and head, dark coloration especially on the usually white underside and with a well-defined papilla. Males will have only two openings.

Females: The vent or genital area is oval and flat. There are two obvious openings separated by a third one covered by a small flap of skin. A slit or groove is located at the head end of the genital area. The urinary opening is located at the tail end of the genital area. The genital area becomes swollen and reddish in color as spawning time approaches. The swollen vent characteristic only indicates spawning season is approaching and is not a trait for selection. The soft swollen abdomen and general body shape are the best characters for selecting brood females.

With immature fish or fish not yet mature or in spawning condition, the following method will assist in determining sex of selected. Two people are required to rapid handling and determination of sex. Fish are firmly held in a belly-up position. Grasp the head with one hand and firmly clasp the tail with the other. With the fish's head just below your chest and the tail away from your body, gently arch the fish's belly upward. This causes the male papilla or the female genital slit to become distended and more visible. On fish with less pronounced genital development have your assistant slide a probe (or blunt pencil) over the genital area toward the tail. If the probe catches in the genital opening, the fish is female.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/28/21 05:03 PM.

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Very good reference material - thanks for posting links to it.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
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You're most welcome of course.


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I believe your question is too broad. You need to state your goals. You can have a self sustaining pond with just fathead minnows in it. How much work are you willing to put into managing the self-sustaining pond per year? What is your definition of a self sustaining pond? It all comes back to goals that you have for the pond.

#1 priority is water. Without water in the pond it can't be self sustaining.
#2 is the quality of the water in the pond. i.e. nutrients, alkalinity, hardness, pH, etc. etc.

I believe you need to start from the bottom and work your way up, with the very first thing on the list being your goals for the pond. That even ties into how the pond is designed, while there are a lot of "work arounds" that can be done, the basic structure of your pond has to be accommodating to the goals (including the fish population) of your pond. i.e. if you want to have a self sustaining LMB/BG pond, that is unrealistic if your pond has absolutely no reproductive habitat for the bluegills or the bass. In my book, structure is the pond bottom itself, cover is what is placed in the pond for fish habitat.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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JPSdad thanks so much for references, I had read the first one and have to say I learned a lot that I hadn't considered... Like they say education makes all the difference... I was looking for general ideas to take out of the studies rather than the specifics and I think after a careful review some of my previous thoughts may change...
For instance I thought I needed to keep the FHM population strong to keep up the growth rate, of the gills or crappie or whatever I end up going with, but if I understood his point correctly, the FHM are to be used as a starter fish base to feed the other fish until they can start to eat their own young. So what I'd like to achieve is a pond with good sized fish for fun fishing, and large enough numbers so I can catch a bunch if I want to. So this is how I think I can achieve it... Start with FHM and BG fingerlings figure that the next spring added fingerling lmb and about 6 female CC. I really like to catch crappie, I'd like to have them in my pond as well, but I don't know how they play with bluegill. And I know they overpopulate really fast without something to thin them out. Would the LMB that I mentioned planning for, would they keep crappie numbers in control? Also would they run the bluegill out? I'd like to have both, but realize sometimes that just isn't possible. If crappie don't fit then I'll try the gill/bass/cc mix to follow the fhm starter...
I think I will learn how to fertilize my pond. Since the study was 80 years ago, have they learned a better mix? Do they do water samplings to see what you really need? I'm not doing this for max commercial production, but liked the benefits of keeping the pond weeds down. One concern i had was, I understand one of the big environmental concerns lately is too much fertilizer in the water. How does this play into the need for it to raise more fish per acre? I thought it was very interesting how the fish mixes ended up helping each other out... A mix is always for fun for kids to catch.... and me...

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ESSHUP you are correct, but until I got some of the basics from the reading I probably didn't know where to start a plan... My pond has proven that it has the basics to sustain a fish population, but I lacked some of the management tools to know how to make it better... I think I look forward to trying some of the principals like fertilization for plant control and fish growth, also I'm concerned about getting my predator numbers right to start with, it seems like a lot of hungry mouths to add to a small pond, but seeing how hard it is to fix the problem, it looks like you need to make sure you get enough to start with... Also the reading helped me to see things that I let happen that affected my ponds health and i didn't realize it. For instance when i had the die off and lost my bass predators, then the crappie became the main predator and over populated, then the carp got to a high enough number that they stirred up the sediment so much it shaded the pond so the weeds and phytoplankton decreased, that caused a severe malnutrition among the fish.... Had I known some of the things I just learned I could have tried some things to bring the pond back... Anyway I'm really glad to have the restart from the drought so hopefully it won't be as hard to correct some of the big issues (like carp)... I'm sure I'll make new mistakes, but will be a fun learning experience... Later J

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I had a similar goal, and used a formula of Yellow Perch and Walleye. Walleye will not reproduce in a still-water pond, but will keep the perch in check. The pond was originally "seeded" with FHM, of which I occasionally still see a few, but not the clouds of them I used to have. I also have Black Crappie, but they are not thriving well, the pond is not fertile enough to support them so a lot of little stunted ones that are too large for the gape of the WE, but too small to be fun.

The perch are fantastic and healthy, many are over 12". The Walleye are hook shy so I don't see them often. Then again I should put a hook in on occasion. Didn't fish once this year.

Now I have a single LMB in there to go after the BCP and lazy perch. I have a single BG in there as well as it was tame from the garden pond and I didn't have the heart to kill it off.

It turns out that BG is a real jerk when it comes to swimming. That single BG will track me down anywhere in the 1/2 acre pond, and come up and nip me. It has been known to chase me around the pond for kicks. I suppose that is what you do for kicks when there are no fish of the opposite sex around.

You could always stock just one of each species of fish that you can, other than FHM, and see what happens. I wouldn't count on only getting a single sex. One slipup and game over.

I have been tempted to use small mouth bass and pumpkinseed sunfish as they don't get as large as bluegill, and are not as big of jerks to swimmers. SMB are a little less aggressive as LMB and do better in cold waters. I would than have to fish more often to maintain balance, but I am getting bored of the current formula.

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You're welcome Skunked.

It's fine if you are giving but up on the FHM but before you do completely read the parts on combination with disappearing species. This is pretty much how everyone uses FHM ... essentially to sequester nutrients to be eaten later as BG and LMB grow. Most folks see their FHM into the second year but a good crop of LMB YOY seals their fate.

It is quite interesting how much they add to the total weight or LMB and BG when used in combination. The reference on fish production notes that increases in the combined LMB and BG weights average 179 lbs/acre. Everything in kg/hectare but just multiply by 0.89 to get lbs/acre. So how much forage was this? Some say the conversion is 10 lbs forage to 1 lb gain. That would suggest 1790 lbs/acre of forage was produced by the minnows alone. Stop and think a moment. BG can't produce forage in such quantity. The greatest production of BG Swingle obtained in a fertilized pond with BG (single year) was ~ 500 lbs/acre. The stocking density was too high to produce harvestable fish. At 1500 2" BG/acre he produced an average of 165 lbs/acre in a fertilized pond. They were just big enough to keep by most folks standards. Point is FHM added more weight in BG than the pond could produce of BG without the FHM. Furthermore, many authors reported substantially more production of LMB with minnows (either FHM or GSH or a combination) than with BG. The problem with minnows is they get extirpated by LMB and BG may be able to do it too. BUT if you can maintain an overwintered population of 1 lb of adults in your pond and if they reproduce normally they can produce enough forage to grow 60 lbs of fish in one season. It sounds crazy I know.

I can tell you that CC will not typically extirpate FHM. They will coexist and FHM will likely proliferate. They will add similar gains to the CC as they would bass and bluegill but the CC will wait a little longer for them. The CC aren't going to chase them down as aggressively as BG and LMB will and many the CC will eat will be exhausted and dying from the rigors of reproduction OR perhaps have already died. I think it is an excellent combination especially if you want to grow a limited number of large fish. The difference is that the CC will allow the FHM to reproduce but LMB will wipe them out for sure.

Now ... The pond could also support some other species if you manage them like you plan to manage CC. Which based on your plan of single sex CC is to manage a limited number of CC that are not able to reproduce. So you really like crappie but have already witnessed them do well and then destroy the fishing. crappie can grow 1/2 to 3/4 lbs a year and if you stocked few enough that they could grow maximally but not consume all the FHM produced ... AND ... if they were of single sex you could partition a limited proportion of your FHM production to crappie and still have self sustaining population of FHM.

Where you might go wrong is to try to have too many fish. Its either a smaller number of larger fish or a larger number of smaller fish. Where one is using single sex management, I think the best approach is to grow a smaller number of larger fish. The reason is that procuring sexed stock will be made much easier if you don't have stock so many of them. Also it is less likely a mistake sex identification will go into the pond. For your purposes I like a 5 to 6 year ladder for CC and a 3 to 4 year ladder for Crappie. If FHM will add 180 lbs/acre of production you might consider only small portion of that for the crappie at maximum rates of growth. Lets say 60 lbs/acre of that ... see below.

[Linked Image]

So in this example 5 fish annually grow close to the maximum rate of growth (.72 of the .75 maximum) for a total of 15 fish (or 75 fish per acre by the 3rd year). In this year you harvest up to but not to exceed 5 fish per year. Now 5 fish per year is a doable ladder if you have a good place to get 5 female crappie each spawning season. If you were try to obtain say 40 ... much harder to do. You could tweak the rules of harvest and begin in the 2nd year harvest only fish >12" and no more than 4 per year. This reduces the standing number to only 10 of year 1 and year 2 and then possibly 1 in year 3 to 8. Most BC will not live longer than that after reaching 8" (the stocking size). But this early but not complete harvest of year class allows you to grow an occasional trophy sized BC exceeding 3 lbs.

This kind of stocking program has the potential of working in harmony with FHM and their great forage potential because the predators are growing maximally but using only a portion of the production potential of the FHM.

Last edited by jpsdad; 10/29/21 09:51 PM.

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Originally Posted by liquidsquid
I have a single BG in there as well as it was tame from the garden pond and I didn't have the heart to kill it off.

It turns out that BG is a real jerk when it comes to swimming. That single BG will track me down anywhere in the 1/2 acre pond, and come up and nip me. It has been known to chase me around the pond for kicks. I suppose that is what you do for kicks when there are no fish of the opposite sex around.

Great story lesson (maybe a book) -- BG's life was spared - but put in prison full of strange fish and none of its kind -- tracks down man that helped it but put it in prison to bite him in the ass. Only on Pond Boss channel. laugh wink
















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Thanks LSquid for the examples of what you've done, appreciate that..

JPSDAD really liked your analysis and I think I had confused things a little I was still planning on the FHM as a starter forage mix and then following up with the BG and CC and probably bass a year later.... But I really like the potential that you described of a few limited single sex crappie, so if I want that, then the BG and LMB probably would be a problem in the pond since they would eat all the FHM... I guess my decision needs be really big fish or good numbers of fish. My thoughts are that the BG and LMB would most likely give me the fun for kids pond that my wife would like to have. That goal would be bass around 1-3 lbs and gills hopefully over 7", I would plan on culling bass and gills depending on the condition of the fish. Leaving a few channels in for clean up and occasional (ladder) harvest on 1 to one basis. I think I need another pond, I want to do both things... Wish I could get clearance to dig another one.. Thanks for the info, it's really fun to consider... Jeff

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Originally Posted by SkunkedAgain
My thoughts are that the BG and LMB would most likely give me the fun for kids pond that my wife would like to have. That goal would be bass around 1-3 lbs and gills hopefully over 7", I would plan on culling bass and gills depending on the condition of the fish.

Skunked, you know what they say ... if Momma ain't happy ... ain't nobody happy! What she wants is worth considering ... but I agree. You need 2 ponds. That said, I think you could add 1 or 2 crappie per year in a BG/LMB pond where they could attain really good sizes, perhaps trophy sized. Just treat them as a bonus fish that you might catch from time to time.


It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers


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Unless you want to catch and eat Channel Cats, you don't "have to" stock them in the pond. After they reach around 3# they will compete directly with the LMB for food.


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jps, I agree with what you're saying there, always good to have the boss happy, and with how much she loves to have family over and having fun while they are here, I suspect that will be the direction I will take with my existing pond... I really do like the idea of the bonus fish in there, they won't be caught very often, but when they are it will be fun to have some big ones... I really like that idea. Thanks for passing it on...

esshup I expect my cc pond may have to wait till #2 is ready, I like the idea of fhm, cc and bonus fish in the mix... I think that will be my trophy pond if I can figure out how to make it happen. Thanks for the suggestions Jeff


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