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#539007 08/20/21 09:48 PM
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Hello,

I have two new 1/4 acre ponds built which probably average 4 ft deep and are about 7 feet at their deepest. I have read prior posts for small pond stocking like this, but I still need specific advice. My goal is generally occasional catch and release fishing for both small and large fighters. I need to keep these fish interested in crank lures and flies. Harvesting to eat now and then is in the cards, but never enough to control population. I would like to avoid a pellet feeding program while also ensuring these ponds don't overpopulate with anything. I also don't want catfish, at least not initially. From prior posts, I think I need to focus on HSB and HBG. I also plan to heavily stock with feeder fish, and I am willing to do this regularly if not more than roughly four to six times a year. My main question is how do I keep the HSB sufficiently fed to grow large without pellets? I assume the non-reproducing HBG will grow too large for the HSB. I hope my goal is realistic. Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks

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Welcome to the forum!!

I hope your pocketbook is deep. Here's some numbers for you. Predator fish need to eat around 10# of fish to put 1# of weight on 1 fish. They can do the same with 2-3 pounds of pellets. I'll let you run the numbers cost wise. 25 HSB = 250# of minnows and that does not take into consideration the minnows that the HBG will eat.

The bigger the fish get in the pond, the more times they will be caught and the more hook shy they will get.

Ponds also have a certain carrying capacity. With your relatively shallow ponds, they will get pretty durn hot in the summer.

HBG WILL reproduce, but just not to the extent that regular BG will. HSB will have a hard time controlling the offspring because of their small gape size.

You might have to find some friends to control the population of HBG if you aren't going to keep enough to eat to control the population.


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Thanks for the info. Can you tell me about how often, in what quantities, and over what overall time frame that 250 lbs of feeder fish would need to be stocked for those 25 HSB? For instance, am I stocking say 50 lbs of feeder fish 5 times a year once the HSB are full grown? I forgot to mention I will be aerating the pond with a couple of subsurface diffusers and a 1/2 hp compressor. I also have a strong deep well within a 100 ft for cool make-up water. I understand the pellets will be much cheaper, but won't that train the fish to feed on pellets and ignore everything else?

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Stock the baitfish when you no longer see any in the pond. You can use a 1/4 or 1/3 hp compressor to aerate the pond and save $$ on energy. For instance a Vertex Pondlyfe 1/4 hp compressor can run up to 3 single disc Vertex diffusers.

If you use the well to make up water, you should run the water over something to "bounce" it around to degass it and to add O2 before it hits the pond. A packed column may not be pretty, but it will get the work done quickly.

No on the pellets, the fish will still retain their natural instinct to feed on natural food in the pond.


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FWIW, have you priced 250 lbs of baitfish versus 50 lbs of a good fish food?


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Honestly if th eponds are that shallow they may be best off as Bluegill ponds right?

Alternatively one pond could be a forage pond that you cast net bait from to feeder your predators in the other pond


Im going to ask a lot of questions, but only because I'm clueless


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Polobbie,

They are toying with you on account of your aversion to feeding. You are going to have sunlight falling on your pond ... right? Well if yes, your ponds will grow food for your fish. You don't have feed them forage ... the pond can do that for you. Your thoughts are about a HSB predator and Hybrid sunfish. This experiment has been running a while in several member ponds and the results have been mixed. In particular, the jury is out on whether HSB control the population of even hybrid sunfish.

Based on your stated goals which I summarize as "I want catchable fish that are enjoyable to catch ... I will harvest a few but don't want the success of their growth to depend on active population management." .... I will offer a few thoughts.

HSB are an interesting fish for this purpose. The first thing I will tell you is that they can serve as a dual purpose fish. Smaller HSB are much like pan-fish really and the larger ones are predators. At smaller sizes they are suited for a pond like yours but might not fare well after they exceed 20" in length ... especially in Texas. All the same, a 16" HSB is indeed enjoyable to catch and fine eating too. The extreme advantage to a put and take predator like HSB is that ALMOST ALL of the standing weight can be memorable to catch. In an LMB/BG combination this is usually not the case (though it can be). Take a look at the 4 year rotation below for a 1/4 acre pond:

[Linked Image]

I assumed your pond could support up to 250 lbs/acre of HSB. So how will the HSB be supported? By a combination of insects, small invertebrates, and small fish. You know I catch 16" LMB frequently on little baits and I have caught > 10 lbs trout that got that big on little bitty shrimp like creatures. The idea is to keep the feed chain SHORT. So can GAMs, Red Shiner, and PK shrimp support 250 lbs of HSB? Well alternatively ... if they can support 250 lbs of BG ... what prevents them from supporting a similar weight of HSB? That question is not rhetorical. Everyone is invited to take a stab at the question and offer the devil's advocation as to why 16 to 80 HSB wouldn't make a living on these highly reproductive creature.

IMHO that number of mouths just isn't enough HSB to completely extirpate the prey organisms. Sure Swingle found that 170 lbs of LMB could extirpate GAMs ... but hey that was because there were hundreds of LMB offspring consuming the GAMs. As long as the largest HSB aren't having to consume prey that are eating the largest of the GAMS, RSH, and PKS then the food chain is short and the prey DIRECTLY feeds the fish you are growing to catch. Provided you don't have in mind to catch monster HSB ... Such a food chain could easily support HSB up to around 18" in length with NO NEED for food chain interlopers (like reproducing lepomis or lepomis hybrids). These will not grow as large or as fast as HSB any way. Why do you need them?

The scenario calls for a stocking of 80 8" HSB in a 1/4 acre pond every 4 years and a harvest of (up to but no more than) 16 HSB every year. By year 4, if the harvest has been implemented, the standing weight should be declining justifying a new infusion of stockers. It is unlikely at the stocking rates (and existing prey lengths) that any of the original stockers would be large enough to consume the laddered stockers (8 inches in length). So this kind of system seems almost ideal for your stated goals.

With regard to feeding, I would just say if done in moderation in the early going it is a very cost efficient way to grow fish and increase the nutrients in your water. As long as the additional nutrients are not creating other problems (excessive vegetative growth), I would want to use feed as a means of adding nutrients.

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/21/21 02:37 PM.

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^^^ I'd love for him to go that route and report back here in 3 years to see how that scenario works. jpsdad, have you seen a pond where that is happening?


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I guess the only answer I can give you to that question is that I have never seen a pond where that proposed food chain failed. Have you?

I think the assumption of carrying capacity may be high and that they may not achieve the 18" the scenario proposed. In other words, I think maybe the stocking rate of HSB is too high. The OP has two ponds. Maybe he would like to stock a food chain proposed by you and one by me and then report back in 3,4,5,6,etc years?


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No I have not. I'd love to see the results of a dual test!!


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Why not? I'm game. So long as the same amount of feed goes into both ponds ... I think the exercise would be fun. We could vie for metrics like Ultimate size, Fish over 12" caught per hour fishing, yearly harvest weights, etc.


So what do you propose for Polobbie's HSB food chain?


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Lets do this as a theoretical exercise, BUT also put $$ to the cost per year for stocking and forage, plus where sourced. (to get real world numbers) Lets also figure out the whole picture, not just fish and food or fish and food chain. You have to have cover and habitat in the pond too. i.e. If PK shrimp are stocked, don't they need underwater weeds for habitat? Where would those weeds be sourced, what species, what depth to plant, how many, what price, and what time frame for stocking the natural forage after the weeds are introduced to the pond?

Lets assume that both ponds are aerated and both ponds have all the landscaping/grass completed and growing to prevent dirt from washing into the pond which might create turbidity. Lets also assume that the ponds have the same amount of both woody and rocky habitat installed in the ponds. If there is no brush on site to use for habitat in the pond, he can go to any of the big box stores at Christmas and get Christmas trees to use for brush piles. If brush piles are made, then they will need cement blocks to hold them down, 1 large block/6-8 trees. 8"x8"x16 - $1.38 each @ Lowe's

In the supplementally fed pond.
I propose a Texas Hunter Feeder, with Solar panel and shore legs. $950 including shipping to there in Texas from Hoosier Pond Pros
One 40# Bag of Optimal Bluegill Jr. food to start, that should last 2 months. $57.00 from Optimal Fish Food
40 Hybrid Striped Bass 4"-6" $4 each from Overton Fisheries/Todd Overton $160.00
200 Hybrid Bluegills 2.5"-3.5" $0.65 each from Larry's Fish Farm $130
100 Redear Sunfish 3"-4" $0.75 each From Overton Fisheries/Todd Overton $75.00
Yearly stocking of 10# Mozambique Tilapia to deal with any Filamentous Algae that occurs 3"-6" fingerlings, $15/lb From Overton Fisheries/Todd Overton $150
Golden Shiners 10# $14/lb from Overton Fisheries/Todd Overton $140

I would expect him to use around 1/2 bag of food per month, when the water temps are 60°F and above, say 10 months of the year..

Initial cost for fish and feeder and food is $1,512.00 (that is for 2 months of food) No Tilapia are needed this late in the year.

first 12 months expenses should be around $435 (Food and Tilapia)
2nd 12 month expenses should be around $470 (Food and Tilapia - switching to a 50/50 mix between Optimal Bluegill and Bass food plus slightly bumping up the feeding rate to 23#/month in place of initially the 20#/month average for the first 12 months)
3rd 12 month expenses should be around $470 also.

I would expect the Hybrid Striped Bass to be 10"-12" long by 12 months post stocking, the Hybrid Bluegills to be in the 6", possibly 8" range at that time. 24 months after stocking I would expect the Hybrid Striped Bass to be in the 14"-16" range with some possibly 18" and the Hybrid Bluegills to be in the 8"-10" range. 36 months after stocking I would expect the Hybrid Striped Bass to be 16"-16" range, possibly with a few in the 20" range and the original stocked Hybrid Bluegills to be in the 10"-11, maybe a few in the 12" range, and the F2's that were hatched in the pond should be anywhere from fry to 8".

Relative weights of the stocked fish should be in the 125%-135% for the HBG, 125% up to 150% for the HSB after the first 12 months.


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Good advice and proposals but is anyone will to help bankroll the proposed two pond study?


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Originally Posted by Bill Cody
Good advice and proposals but is anyone will to help bankroll the proposed two pond study?

I wouldn't bankroll a feeder and feed, nor landscaping and such. But if the OP were interested in setting up a small prey pond for HSB only I could help him acquire the GAMs and RSH.

Originally Posted by esshup
In the supplementally fed pond. . .

That sounds a whole lot like you plan to deny the small prey pond feed and establish "feed as the food chain" We have a 6 month growing season and you "expect" the pond to fed 480 lbs/acre/year. Don't you think it insensible to compare a pond whose food chain "is feed" to one that isn't? Yeah, I was just thinking a modestly fertilized pond for both treatments with small prey in one and HBG as prey in the other ... you know ... compares apples (one food chain) and apples (another food chain) where the water parameters were otherwise similar. Feeding 480 lbs/acre is like adding more than ton of wet weight forage. Its also like adding a ton of manure to the pond after the fish excrete it.

With regard to habitat, I agree brush is most appropriate for a new pond. Its very effective habitat for PK shrimp by the way. Were it me I would go about the shrimp with the idea of just getting a base population going in the beginning. Most of the forage is going to be provided by GAMs and RSH. Until plants naturally establish, Shrimp will probably not be a dominate part of the prey mix. This may be true even later where GAMs and RSH utilize smaller Shrimp for food. They'll coexist but I think the minnows will be the dominant sources of prey. Were the pond mine, I might try to use the brush to exclude the larger HSB from portions of pond to form a forage area refuge larger than the brush. You know, kind of like a forage pond within the pond. Shallow areas that the HSB might avoid could also provide refuge (Lord knows the shallows do not deter LMB in the least ... especially the fingerling sizes).

Like Bill, I think your proposal will work for the first 3 or 4 years probably upon which you might declare the whole thing a success. But what about the OP who didn't actually want to feed? and didn't actually want to have to harvest a lot of fish? It shows your vision what a pond can be in first 3 or 4 years if you really push it. But won't the OP ultimately be left a pond that overproduces small fx hybrids? Isn't he headed for a fish kill? Or algaecide? Or herbicide? and a lot of other expenses ad-infinitum that he didn't express any interest in expending (Just like EVERYONE else following a similar regimen?). I see no recommendation for harvest ... no long term plan for a sustainable system. There is something to be said for a system designed to produce results in year 10 similar to the result in year 6 (4 years earlier). All that said, I suppose we could feed the small prey pond the same quantity of feed most of which would be converted by the HSB (and then recycled by the prey). It would be comparing apple to apples and I figure the small prey would add more forage than the HBG ... (though maybe not the TP which feed low on the food chain). Its just if all you are trying to do is say adding 480 lbs/acre of feed produces 240 lbs of fish directly and more by manuring the pond ... well then ...I concede that this is so. Absolutely. But it isn't a food chain, nor will it ever be, in my way of thinking.


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I'm just trying to point out that book thinking without actual physical hands on doing (i.e. experience in doing so) and not supplying the costs/where to get what is suggested to do is similar to answering a question on an exam without writing out the equation on how that result was determined.

Don't get me wrong, without book learning there would be little knowledge passed along. But like I have seen with so many engineers that only have book knowledge and no hands on real world experience, real world execution is many times more difficult or more expensive than what the book alludes to.


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What? Really? You know what I see?

Many well intentioned people trying to reach nirvana putting the equivalent of a ton or more wet weight of manure per acre in their ponds every year on the advice that it was the duck that nested on their pond causing all the vegetation problems. I see member after member, with aeration and other mediation, undergoing fish kills. You know books are great for learning, particularly when the source of the information comes from bona fide experiments, but this forum is a virtual treasure trove of data that says plainly, "Feeding isn't a good alternative to population management and vibrant food chain". Two things that go hand in hand. So what do you say about someone with experience that can't so much as learn from his mistakes?

Particularly for this OP, I don't see a need for a feeder, Heck he doesn't even want one or the feed. He'd probably be happy having two ponds he doesn't have to feed and aerate. He might be happy taking no more than 16 fish per annum for eating. He might not like the prognosis that your regimen will lead to with all the other costs. There is really good chance that what he really wants is to enjoy his pond for many years to come as it progress to eutrophication more slowly giving him long term results that he can manage easily and depend on.

What I see in what you advised above is "what you want". All you have to do ... is to convince him to spend all that money. Paint the picture ... he'll be missing out ... if he doesn't spend it. When the vegetation takes over ... paint the picture ... the geese that spent a few days did that ... you let the ducks nest ... its grass clippings ... but it just can't be the tons per acre of fish manure that wouldn't be there if you hadn't depended on my advice to feed a ton of (wet) weight feed per year. To be sure all those things do add nutrients to a pond ... (the feed isn't excluded).

I've been around along time esshup, maybe I'm as old as you are. I still fish ponds that I fished 45 to 50 years ago and every time I visit them they produce results much like they did when I was a kid. Numerous LMB in the 10 to 14 range and many large BG ranging from 8.5 to 10.5 inches. I fish them most every year and so I know a pond can slowly progress through eutrophication ... even in a cow pasture with cattle depositing manure it. Not optimal systems because they are not population managed but they are predictable.

Hey I get that some people have to have the experience of feeding a ton (of wet) weight feed per acre to their ponds every year. They need a fish kill and excessive vegetation to belong to the club. They don't mind that hand on their shoulder saying "It going to be OK ... we will just get started right now fixing this mess."

Anyways, the reason I made the post was because you and Theo were toying with the OP. Rather than lead him to a food chain that would supply is fish with food you let him think the choice was between feeding store bought live forage or store bought feed. Shame on you.

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/22/21 08:38 AM.

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Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that what I am proposing is the only way to do things. But I asked for the information on the alternate stocking plan because I believe that pond owners should be informed as to what it will cost for their initial stocking, annual pond management expenses, and to make sure that they know where to source the materials that was recommended.

You may need to go back and re-read what the OP is asking for. The OP is asking for how often that the feeder fish should be stocked. Also in case you missed it, the OP will be aerating.

The OP didn't want to feed because he was afraid that feeding the fish would make them reluctant to strike at lures and make them harder to catch.

Like I said earlier, post your proposed stocking plan with prices, where to source the supplies and time frame for the plan to be implemented. Why propose a plan but not furnish the details to the OP? It's fine for people to come on here and propose things for ponds that aren't theirs, but when they don't think their proposals through for all the fine details that the person that owns the pond has to do is where I have issues.

You proposed the OP stock Gams, Red Shiners and PK Shrimp. Where will the OP source those, in what quantity, at what cost, and what habitat do they need to be a viable reproducing food source in his pond? For instance, if PK shrimp need a certain habitat so they aren't extirpated from the pond within a month or two of stocking, why not say so, and tell him where to get the plants, and in what quantity is needed. or note that the PK shrimp have to be stocked "X" times per year? Does he have to restock them annually or semi-annually? Like I said earlier, and the question was never answered. Where to source, and at what cost? If it is suggested that they can be sourced from other BOW's, is it legal to do so in Texas? What is the equipment needed to catch them, and how long will it take him to catch them in the quantities that is needed?

If you feel that my plan is doomed to failure, give supporting facts to prove that your stocking plan will not. Have you ever had hands on experience with a pond stocked with HSB and HBG? If not, then how can you suggest what to stock for forage?

You said "Don't you think it insensible to compare a pond whose food chain "is feed" to one that isn't?" My answer is no. The reason I say no is that this is an exercise to show the OP what the costs and stocking plan are for the proposed 2 ponds. I was suggesting that he will use approximately 220# of food per year for his quarter acre pond. You say that there are 180 growing days per year there in Austin. If that is correct, then the OP can cut back on the feed to only use 132#/year, at a cost of $188/year.

I have done my part. I am waiting on supporting data for the other pond, and what is to be expected from that pond 2-3 years down the line for growth rates on the fish.


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As we've got a really thoughtful, heartfelt discussion going here, it just might be time for the OP to jump back in with comments and questions about what has been written so far.

Polobbie, what are you understanding form all this? You're lucky to have some smart minds, some of the best in the business of pond management, reaching out to help.

And remember, "It depends..."

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Polobbie, I hope you have not run off. Everyone means well, but we can get a bit intense on occasion. We all love pond life and love to help others of like mind.

I will share my experience with the HBG and HSB, and my 1/4 acre pond...

I stocked a few pounds of FHM's in 2017 and some crawdads (stocking the crawdads that first year was a mistake, I should have waited until the game fish were stocked and grew big enough to help control them - I do have a great crawdad pond as a result, however). Anyhow, those few pounds of FHM's made many, many, MANY more FHM's (the key is to give them plenty of egg laying structure). The FHM's had the pond to themselves for the entire year. Then I stocked 40 - 6 inch HSB, about 500 - 3 to 6" HBG, and 90 - 2 to 4" RES. The game fish grew as JP suggests...within the first growing season, I was seeing 1 pound HSB and 6 to 7 inch HBG. I do feed my fish, but they have never really fed very aggressively. I believe the gross amount of FHM's and crawdads kept them full for the most part. I have seen a bit more than a pound of growth in the HSB every year. Doing some very crude math would suggest that 40 HSB might need 10 pounds of live food a year to gain that pound. That's 400 pounds of forage. If I were trying to feed my pond with minnows...I would break it up purely into quarters. The first minnow stocking of the year would be in March, then again in June, then sept, the again in Dec. All give or take a month. I'm not expert, but doing it quarterly makes it simple and any uneaten minnows will grow and become forage for the next quarter. This example just includes the HSB. You will have to add to that to help the HBG.

If it were me and I had the hobby money...I would create a FHM forage pond just up hill from a HSB pond and ONLY do HSB in the lower pond (maybe some RES). The forage pond would empty into the HSB pond, but would also have a 6" drain (with valve) so that the forage pond could be mostly emptied into the HSB pond periodically. No seining or trapping and all it would take is a few pounds added to it every spring to keep it going. It might not even need that if it was not emptied entirely. Around here, the pond would refill over the winter and be ready for the next season. I may be dreaming, but I would love to have the entire carrying capacity in my 1/4 acre pond to be HSB. They are freight train when you can get them on a hook.

Now, my pond has aged to be 4 years old now I have learned that my HBG population has dwindled. I think they washed down the pipe as my pond gets a lot of throughput and when it does, it's like flash flooding, not like a constant feed from a spring. The HSB population has seemed to dropped off as well. I'm not sure why, maybe they aged and died as there has been no sign of otters, poachers, or fish kills. I have been ladder stocking an additional 10 HSB every two years, but think yearly would be better. I do not harvest many fish from my pond. I have recently stocked CC and regular BG as the HSB were very difficult to get on a hook and left me wanting to catch something more frequently. I will continue to ladder stock some HSB because they are a great surprise when caught, but the CC and BG should lend the pond to be more fun on a regular basis, especially for the nieces and nephews.


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Originally Posted by 4CornersPuddle
... it just might be time for the OP to jump back in with comments and questions about what has been written so far.

Originally Posted by Quarter Acre
Polobbie, I hope you have not run off.

Hopefully he has not been scared off, and is now contemplating raising LMB in a toaster oven.

I mean, we had that happen once.


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Were we 'animals' or was he 'animals?'

We may never know.....


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted by esshup
If you feel that my plan is doomed to failure, give supporting facts to prove that your stocking plan will not. Have you ever had hands on experience with a pond stocked with HSB and HBG? If not, then how can you suggest what to stock for forage?

You are not paying attention. I think he might like the pond better without the HBG ... especially 5 years from now. I think HSB only would better fit his stated goal.

You know it's not rocket science esshup. Why wouldn't HSB eat minnows and shrimp? Don't you think its insensible to propose that HSB won't eat minnows and shrimp because I have no experience stocking a pond with HSB? What you doing is what we in the science field call an "appeal to authority". I respect your experience esshup, but I don't respect your appeal to it as an invalidation that HSB will eat minnows and shrimp. Simple common sense will tell one that the HSB will eat whatever is available to them that they can capture successfully. They naturally eat small fish for sure.

Even without minnows a pond will support some weight of HSB. Most of that biomass would be supported by insects and other invertebrates. Other forage merely provides additional carrying capacity for them. It should be clear to you, as it is everyone else, that provided the weight of HSB is below a critical carrying capacity the HSB and prey species will thrive? If it isn't, then consider these questions?

Can a single HSB extirpate all the prey in a 1/4 pond?

Can two HSB extirpate all the prey in a 1/4 pond?

You see in the beginning of this sequence we must answer no. But at some point the answer is "it depends on how big the fish are" and that's where one gets to the meat of what critical carrying capacities are.

Quote
You proposed the OP stock Gams, Red Shiners and PK Shrimp. Where will the OP source those, in what quantity, at what cost, and what habitat do they need to be a viable reproducing food source in his pond? For instance, if PK shrimp need a certain habitat so they aren't extirpated from the pond within a month or two of stocking, why not say so, and tell him where to get the plants, and in what quantity is needed. or note that the PK shrimp have to be stocked "X" times per year? Does he have to restock them annually or semi-annually? Like I said earlier, and the question was never answered. Where to source, and at what cost? If it is suggested that they can be sourced from other BOW's, is it legal to do so in Texas? What is the equipment needed to catch them, and how long will it take him to catch them in the quantities that is needed?

He could stock GAMs and FHMs now. If he'll bring some of his own water, I will give him a few hundred pregnant GAMs which is all he needs to populate his pond. The red shiner are available from a fish supplier in San Antonio but I will need to locate that link and contact info. If not I can trap them and will provide them under the same condition before. He must bring his own water and have a valid Texas fishing license. So even if its only a puddle today, all three of these can thrive in turbid water. By next spring they will have reproduced enough be ready for a great start. So why not buy a 100 PK shrimp from the ebay seller everyone here buys from. So right now we are talking $30 for 3 lbs of FHMs, $70 for the PKS, and a 4 hour round trip for the GAMs. Not sure if I could see him home with RSH this time of year but next spring ... if he is willing ... all he has to do is bring water and do another 4 hour round trip. The slowest populations to develop will be the RSH and the PKS and he'll need brush which will provide habitat ... can't really say what that is going to cost but I do like the idea of the spent Christmas trees. Were it me, I'd prefer eastern red cedar ... you know the kind that grow like weeds and take up pasture. He wouldn't have too many for sure but he needs enough to shelter three or four pounds of PKS through the winter and to overwinter a pound or two of GAMs. The more the merrier of course, he won't install two much of it.

To start the HSB I think I would get 100 1" to 2" fingerlings from KEO for a cost less than $200. Just release 85 (or all if the OP would keep 15 8" fish that fall) of them expecting 75% survival. Swingle found that December stocked 3 lbs/acre of FHM added over 179 lbs/acre to LMB/BG production in a fertilized pond by the following December. He also found that 1 lb/acre of GAMs stocked in May added 150 lbs/acre of production to BG over the course of 6 months in a fertilized pond. Using your often stated rule of 10 lbs forage to one pound gain I estimate that under cropping, even though the standing weights never got that high, that the GAMS produced ~ 1500 lbs of forage and the FHMs produced 1790 lbs of forage. Looking back at my spreadsheet, I find under the rule of 5 lbs maintenance and 10 to 1 FCR that the prospective outlay would require less than 900 lbs forage. So the scenario is reasonable provided sufficient numbers of parental prey overwinter. The RSH should build in numbers as even Snipe is getting RSH recruitment in his pond full of fish but I see them replacing FHM over time. With sufficient cover, he may even get the FHM to hang around. Since I only expect them to reach 8" feeding on the minnows I anticipate 75% survival where 64 HSB attain a standing weight of 16 lbs by Fall which is standing weight per acre of 64 lbs/acre. So clearly, they are going to eat a lot of minnows but minnows may very well go into winter above the carrying capacity for them. Polobbie, this means that you have from now until the summer of the year after next to complete your brush additions.

Because he'll using 2" fingerlings for the initial HSB stocking there is no reason to recommend feeding the HSB. I think he would have to train them from KEO anyways before they would accept feed. Even so, the pond should be brought to a reasonable level of fertility. I'd like to see the alkalinity and hardness parameters to be favorable. I just want to input sufficient nutrients to achieve this level and in subsequent years only add nutrients if its needed to maintain the carrying capacity. I am giving this more thought. I may recommend an organic fertilizer or possibly lower cost feed directed to the minnows. A carrying capacity of 250 lbs/acre concentrated in fish larger than 12" is a very good standing weight of harvestable fish. The harvest could actually be much higher than proposed. Reducing the standing weight annually through harvest provides growing room that benefits predator and prey alike. Its just that Polobbie expressly said he doesn't plan on keeping many fish. Even so a modest harvest of up to 16 fish annually will help ensure continual growth. We'll work out the details of maintaining the population of HSB in the future ... but I think a fall stocking of advanced fingerlings from Overton's to be a good option for you.

Polobbie, it's an experiment that I think you would be pleased with the results. If you think you'd like to perform this or both experiments ... and one pond flows into the other ... give the high ground to the small prey pond as you won't want those HBG in it. The lower pond might get an influx of minnows and shrimp from the upper pond. It will only help the HBG pond ... but ... its going to help the HBG more than it will the HSB.

Last edited by jpsdad; 08/22/21 03:41 PM.

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Okay there you go. You have TWO different ways to stock the 1/4 ac ponds. One way uses a natural food chain approach and the other way uses a supplemental pellet feeding approach. Both methods have merit, good rewards and could be successful. The supplemental pellet feeding approach will grow several times more pounds of fish and likely larger fish compared to the natural food chain method. Even supplemental stocking of feeder fish deviates from an all natural food chain method. After several years a blend of the two methods could eventually result. This change often happens in ponds after the first fish stocking. Ponds have various ways of changing ones best laid initial plans. What results one WANTS to happen does not always happen. Pond development usually has surprises during every season.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/22/21 04:55 PM.

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Originally Posted by esshup
You said "Don't you think it insensible to compare a pond whose food chain "is feed" to one that isn't?" My answer is no. The reason I say no is that this is an exercise to show the OP what the costs and stocking plan are for the proposed 2 ponds.

OK fine. But there is a very big difference. The feed converts directly ... something which in the beginning ... is good thing. But specifically it points to a different philosophy about pond stewardship. Your means of nourishing the fish will surely goose the front end growth of the fish. As I earlier pointed out to Polobby, feed is very efficient for growing fish. So I see your tack here, you hope to demonstrate that fish grown by your treatment will have a lower cost (maybe by fish or by pound). This may be true or we may all be surprised ... including myself ... that cost of growing fish extensively is cheaper when you don't. To really be a comparison, I can't be limited to 3 years. My focus is long term performance of fishing quality and water quality.

What you are trying to achieve is hyper-eutrophic conditions and standing weights. You have given no guidance on harvest. I presume that in 3 years you anticipate most of the 40 remain in the pond? If they averaged 2.5 lbs there would be 400 lbs/acre of just HSB. The standing weight of HBG would have to be much higher and there is no way to describe that situation other than the pond is becoming hyper-eutrophic in only 3 years. see below.

Originally Posted by esshup
I was suggesting that he will use approximately 220# of food per year for his quarter acre pond. You say that there are 180 growing days per year there in Austin. If that is correct, then the OP can cut back on the feed to only use 132#/year, at a cost of $188/year.

Well then, it is worse than I thought, or maybe there is a typo? Please correct if there is a typo but I will work with your numbers.

OK so 132# per year is 528 lbs/acre year. It should convert at 2 to 1 and grow at least 264 lbs of fish each year by direct consumption and conversion. With no attrition, there would be 792 lbs/acre grown over 3 years. Add to this the pond's food chain and we may be talking close to 1000lbs/acre of fish. Dang, I respect your experience but I don't want that for my pond. I'd be at the limit of any kind of safety for my fish and on pins and needles every time a system of cloudy days came through.

And so up north you recommend 880 lbs of feed every year per acre? I am completely befuddled by that. Do your clients harvest 440 lbs of fish annually OR is this just what it takes to maintain 800+ lbs of fish in a pond that has no food chain? Dang. That question is not rhetorical. I'd like an explanation as to how nutrients at this level are being dealt with. Frankly, I think a lot of such feed is totally wasted. There is a good chance there is a lot of winter mortality in those ponds unless the fish grown are removed annually. Now keep in mind that the energy of any given meal is only 10% assimilated. The other 90% passes through the fish and accumulates in the pond.

Here is how I see 880 lbs of feed/acre. It is more than two tons of wet weight manure per acre OR a little over 8 55 gallon barrels of poo. What would say to your clients with excessive vegetation if they were adding 8 55 gallon barrels of poo in their 1 acre ponds every single year. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to gross you out. But isn't that the net effect (after getting the growth) of feeding 880 lbs/acre every year?


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Originally Posted by jpsdad
What? Really? You know what I see? ...


Anyways, the reason I made the post was because you and Theo were toying with the OP. Rather than lead him to a food chain that would supply is fish with food you let him think the choice was between feeding store bought live forage or store bought feed. Shame on you.

This type of confrontational behavior and personal accusations are not allowed under Forum Rules. I have known Theo and esshup for over 15 years (personally and not just as posters) and read many thousands of their posts and they have never tried to " toy " with posters seeking information. Posters need options and ideas based on experience and science (keeping in mind every situation is different).
















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